IT begs the question (other than the chick factor) why did the FBI revert to the nine? Personally, I'd go with the 357 SIG over any other caliber for self defense.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
If I am not carrying something in 40 S&W it is about an even split if I am carrying a 45 ACP or a 9mm Luger. It boils down to the holster I need to use to fit the belt or that I need more "concealment" than normal. If I am wearing a full 2" wide belt, then I carry a 45 as guns in that chambering are the only ones I own that have holsters that will wrap around a true 2" belt. If I had a 40 S&W or 9mm with a holster that worked I would carry the 40 S&W or even 9mm instead. If I am going someplace where others would likely not appreciate me carrying a firearm, then I carry a 9mm as it is the smallest, thinnest gun I own and can shoot well. A 45 that handles as well would be bigger and probably a little harder to fully conceal.
So, I guess I have no preferences. I pick the gun based on need and use whichever cartridge that gun is chambered in. With no theoretical differences in the cartridges themselves, the choice between them is moot. Other factors play a larger role in my choice than bulletin diameter.
IT begs the question (other than the chick factor) why did the FBI revert to the nine? Personally, I'd go with the 357 SIG over any other caliber for self defense.
They explained it pretty well.
Have you not read it?
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
.40 S&W is better than the 9mm, and the .45 ACP is better than both. We can argue 'how much better', but it has never really been about the cartridge. It has been about the shooter's ability and comfort in firing and carrying the handgun.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense. Robert Frost
I have also carried a G17, G27 and a few others... But, I keep returning to the Taurus PT 111 G2 for my daily carry. I use P+ 115 gr hollow points 1350fps, 466ftlbs
James Pepper: There's no law west of Dodge and no God west of the Pecos. Right, Mr. Chisum? John Chisum: Wrong, Mr. Pepper. Because no matter where people go, sooner or later there's the law. And sooner or later they find God's already been there.
I have guns in all 3, & use them all from time to time for various purposes, EDC, vehicle carry, around the house, etc.
All work, & I don't feel inadequately armed with any of them, but for me, it's generally more about the specific gun than either of those 3 rounds.................they will all work given decent bullets & shot placement.
I love 1911's, hence 45's as that's what I grew up shooting the most (other than 22's), but today, my most carried gun is a 9mm, not because I think the round is superior, but because I think it's enough & I like the package & the magazine capacity.
If were leaving the house today & going directly to a gunfight with a pistol, I'd take a 5" 1911 & lots of magazines.....................
There is not much of a chick factor in SOCOM and they seem to have replaced the 45's with Glock 19's in 9mm. I think that they feel that there is not much difference in stopping power and prefer the higher capacity and increase in accuracy and faster split times between shots.
.40 S&W is better than the 9mm, and the .45 ACP is better than both. We can argue 'how much better', but it has never really been about the cartridge. It has been about the shooter's ability and comfort in firing and carrying the handgun.
What he said. Hasbeen
hasbeen (Better a has been than a never was!)
NRA Patron member Try to live your life where the preacher doesn't have to lie at your funeral
IT begs the question (other than the chick factor) why did the FBI revert to the nine? Personally, I'd go with the 357 SIG over any other caliber for self defense.
They explained it pretty well.
Have you not read it?
Yes I did, recoil, supposed better accuracy, ability to deliver follow on shots (read: too much recoil for females) and better penetration that in 1986 with the 147gr. So yeah, I read it but I'm not buying. Their Special Teams retained the 45...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I have guns in all 3, & use them all from time to time for various purposes, EDC, vehicle carry, around the house, etc.
All work, & I don't feel inadequately armed with any of them, but for me, it's generally more about the specific gun than either of those 3 rounds.................they will all work given decent bullets & shot placement.
I love 1911's, hence 45's as that's what I grew up shooting the most (other than 22's), but today, my most carried gun is a 9mm, not because I think the round is superior, but because I think it's enough & I like the package & the magazine capacity.
If were leaving the house today & going directly to a gunfight with a pistol, I'd take a 5" 1911 & lots of magazines.....................
YMMV
MM
I would agree, and even ad the 380 to the list. Leaving home, I would take any one, but would probably grab the 9mm with the single stack mag most often. I have yet to hear of anyone shot with any of the mentioned cartridges and saying “that didn’t hurt.”
357 sig or full 10mm both have the upper limits of recoil most shooters can handle, large muzzle blast and a fair amount of muzzle flip. that is why no major agencies are using either currently and those that are are transitioning to 9mm. Also when talking about agencies with a large number of shooters ammunition cost comes into play, there is no economy of scale with 357 sig or full 10 compared to 9mm or 45. The overall civilian and le demand for these calibers is low so prices are high.
Bottom line is that is you use a top end bonded bullet in most self defense situations 38, 357, 9, 40 or 45 will all work equally well if you can do your part with your shooting iron.
I use all of the above calibers except for 357 sig, which I have used in the past, I am gtg with them all.
IT begs the question (other than the chick factor) why did the FBI revert to the nine? Personally, I'd go with the 357 SIG over any other caliber for self defense.
They explained it pretty well.
Have you not read it?
Yes I did, recoil, supposed better accuracy, ability to deliver follow on shots (read: too much recoil for females) and better penetration that in 1986 with the 147gr. So yeah, I read it but I'm not buying. Their Special Teams retained the 45...
You might wanna read it again.
What .357 Sig do you carry?
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
IT begs the question (other than the chick factor) why did the FBI revert to the nine? Personally, I'd go with the 357 SIG over any other caliber for self defense.
They explained it pretty well.
Have you not read it?
Yes I did, recoil, supposed better accuracy, ability to deliver follow on shots (read: too much recoil for females) and better penetration that in 1986 with the 147gr. So yeah, I read it but I'm not buying. Their Special Teams retained the 45...
You might wanna read it again.
What .357 Sig do you carry?
Glock 31, but maybe I read the wrong writeup. Not doubting your word, but a link or specific quotes would help.
Last edited by jorgeI; 02/04/19.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
IT begs the question (other than the chick factor) why did the FBI revert to the nine? Personally, I'd go with the 357 SIG over any other caliber for self defense.
They explained it pretty well.
Have you not read it?
Yes I did, recoil, supposed better accuracy, ability to deliver follow on shots (read: too much recoil for females) and better penetration that in 1986 with the 147gr. So yeah, I read it but I'm not buying. Their Special Teams retained the 45...
if you looked at that youtube video by paul herrel it kind of answers the question on a lot of those points, such as response time, etc. Still goes to the heavier slug which would mean .45acp
As a civilian, I am quite happy with 9mm. Would be happy with .45, .40, .357S or 10mm too. YMMV.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad." ---------------------------------------------- "Jimmy, some of it's magic, Some of it's tragic, But I had a good life all the way." (Jimmy Buffett)
E.g., A Glock 26 (12 rounds of 9mm on board) vs a Glock 30 (11 rounds of .45 ACP on board)?
That's one comparison using similar capacity.
But if you use size, it's G19 at 15+1 vs G30 at 10+1.
The G19 comes in 2 1/2 ounces lighter also.
This is a better comparison.
Or
G36 vs G19
Now your 45 is 1/4" shorter, thicker. 2-6 ounce lighter (depending on ammo) But only has 6+1 capacity.
And that's the age old argument. Ammo vs "Horsepower". If modern ammo blurs the difference in effectiveness, is there a question?
Double the amount of similar ammo in a similar size and weight gun. Sound too good to be true.
Own an old G19. Have considered the 30 and 36. But every time I pick them up, It's obvious what I would give up. What would you gain? Well, in theory....
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
I’m sold on compact pistols for self defense. The LC9s leaves little to be desired for my purposes
So long as you are satisfied with it's shortcomings, which in my mind are range & accuracy (or ability to hit) at much more than a few yards.
The larger guns are not nearly so handicapped & the difference in carrying are minor; to get a significant advantage in carrying, you need a gen-u-ine pocket pistol.
Those are only an absolute last resort for me in very special (attire) circumstances........just not a big mouse gun fan.
Where does the 380 Auto fit in with its newfound power and ability that has made the headlines of the shooting world as we know it?
GD it all depends on the bore hole that you like. Some like low bore holes as they are short in stature. On the other hand a 380 would give someone a serious ouchy within a few percent of the ouchy you would get with a 45 acp.
All you he-men can pound your chest all you want. But if you think you can shoot a .40 to the same level you can a 9 you have no idea what you’re talking about.
All you he-men can pound your chest all you want. But if you think you can shoot a .40 to the same level you can a 9 you have no idea what you’re talking about.
I can, of course I need a larger handgun in the .40 S&W to do so and sometimes that's just fine.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense. Robert Frost
E.g., A Glock 26 (12 rounds of 9mm on board) vs a Glock 30 (11 rounds of .45 ACP on board)?
In a smaller, lighter gun, 9mm all the way. IMO based on ammo, there is little difference between the 9, the 40 and the 45 in the best loadings. I tend to agree with those who have more trigger-time than me that the least-recoiling version given the BEST ammo, in the lighter, more concealable platforms, is best.
In a full-size service pistol with the absolute best ammo, IMO the 40 gets the nod, 45 to answer the original question, since EDC could encompass open carry or casual concealment where absolute concealment is not an issue.
These days, I carry a SIG P938 9mm if absolute concealment is mandated, a S&W M&Pc 9mm if it can be concealed as readily or a full-size M&P in 40 if there is no concealment issue or it's winter with heavy clothing.
Some great insights from folks in the know. I don't know much, but my present job does require me to qualify (M-9) and I've run the course with two Glocks (21 & 31) and I find no appreciable loss of scoring with them as compared to the M-9. All firings conducted with ball, 115, 230 and 125gr respectively.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
IT begs the question (other than the chick factor) why did the FBI revert to the nine? Personally, I'd go with the 357 SIG over any other caliber for self defense.
They explained it pretty well.
Have you not read it?
Although I am not stepping into the debate I thought it would be interesting to read, here is one of a few links.
James Pepper: There's no law west of Dodge and no God west of the Pecos. Right, Mr. Chisum? John Chisum: Wrong, Mr. Pepper. Because no matter where people go, sooner or later there's the law. And sooner or later they find God's already been there.
Hard to argue with most of the article, centered on this: "LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings) 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons) The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons) There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers"
There is also this: "The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters"
So what is your 9mm ammo of choice? .
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Hard to argue with most of the article, centered on this: "LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings) 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons) The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons) There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers"
There is also this: "The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters"
So what is your 9mm ammo of choice? .
Or that...
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
"There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto."
Not sure this is correct in terms of 9mm vs .45 ACP. While depth of penetration, bullet expansion success, and weight retention, may be equal, the .45 expands to a significantly larger diameter, and produces permanent wound cavities that are significantly more voluminous, which just has to affect fight stopping performance, even if just by increasing the probability of destroying vitals per round.
"There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto."
Not sure this is correct in terms of 9mm vs .45 ACP. While depth of penetration, bullet expansion success, and weight retention, may be equal, the .45 expands to a significantly larger diameter, and produces permanent wound cavities that are significantly more voluminous, which just has to affect fight stopping performance, even if just by increasing the probability of destroying vitals per round.
That's what the picture showed...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Hard to argue with most of the article, centered on this: "LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings) 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons) The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons) There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers"
There is also this: "The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters"
So what is your 9mm ammo of choice? .
The article is not centered on any one thing. It's a determination based on the totality of the study.
Speer Gold Dot's 147gr.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
"There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto."
Not sure this is correct in terms of 9mm vs .45 ACP. While depth of penetration, bullet expansion success, and weight retention, may be equal, the .45 expands to a significantly larger diameter, and produces permanent wound cavities that are significantly more voluminous, which just has to affect fight stopping performance, even if just by increasing the probability of destroying vitals per round.
It cites the works that helped them come to their conclusion.
If you want to hang your hat on any one thing (which is the opposite of what we should be looking at) you should probably read those.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
All you he-men can pound your chest all you want. But if you think you can shoot a .40 to the same level you can a 9 you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Agree completely, even more so in guns smaller in size than a G23 or similar when talking about speed & accuracy, especially on targets beyond 7 yards or so.
You might be able to keep the speed up, but it will surely be at a significant sacrifice in accuracy, for all but the very top echelon shooters.
As for what ammo I carry in a 9mm, it's 124gr Federal HST's.
Hard to argue with most of the article, centered on this: "LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings) 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons) The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons) There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers"
There is also this: "The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters"
So what is your 9mm ammo of choice? .
The article is not centered on any one thing. It's a determination based on the totality of the study.
Speer Gold Dot's 147gr.
I misspoke, should have said "I" centered on those things, but they are indeed central to the argument and yes the conclusion makes sense. ..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
You might be able to keep the speed up, but it will surely be at a significant sacrifice in accuracy, for all but the very top echelon shooters.
Yeah, Paul Harrell made the case that any reasonably competent shooter should be able to shoot 9mm and .40 S&W about equally fast and accurate from the same sized guns, but he fails to take account of the fact that he's an exceptional shooter, even compared to most agents/cops.
All you he-men can pound your chest all you want. But if you think you can shoot a .40 to the same level you can a 9 you have no idea what you’re talking about.
You need to consider the gun you are shooting. The HK P7 M10 is such a gun and yes it does weigh more, but it is easily manageable...
In 9mm Luger I like the 124gr +P hollow point, Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot and WInchester PDX1. The modern 147gr bullets also seem to have quite a following.
All you he-men can pound your chest all you want. But if you think you can shoot a .40 to the same level you can a 9 you have no idea what you’re talking about.
You need to consider the gun you are shooting. The HK P7 M10 is such a gun and yes it does weigh more, but it is easily manageable...
Yes but you will shoot the 9mm version of that gun faster than you will the .40.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
You might be able to keep the speed up, but it will surely be at a significant sacrifice in accuracy, for all but the very top echelon shooters.
Yeah, Paul Harrell made the case that any reasonably competent shooter should be able to shoot 9mm and .40 S&W about equally fast and accurate from the same sized guns, but he fails to take account of the fact that he's an exceptional shooter, even compared to most agents/cops.
You see a lot of duty .40 rounds fired in local IPSC and IDPA matches?
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
"There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto."
Not sure this is correct in terms of 9mm vs .45 ACP. While depth of penetration, bullet expansion success, and weight retention, may be equal, the .45 expands to a significantly larger diameter, and produces permanent wound cavities that are significantly more voluminous, which just has to affect fight stopping performance, even if just by increasing the probability of destroying vitals per round.
I guess if you say "it just has to" then it must be so. The forensic doctors and scientists of the IWBA have been wasting their time and efforts. Good to know, case closed.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
I would think that "duty' 40 rounds = normal factory loads.
Yeah, downloading would tend to even the field out especially with lighter bullets in the 40's.
I also have to shoot the 40's that I have to stay on top of them too, & they are fine for what I need them for, just surely not as precise & quick for multi-shot strings as a 9 for sure.
I have 'em & there's not much sense in not using them too.
I don’t think think I can shoot the 40 as good as some others.
My line of thinking would come from the old days. Like doing traffic stops, it goes bad and you have to take2-3 shots from the hip at nose hair distances. At an individual that’s wearing layers of Carhart artic wear, who weighs 250 pounds and is drunk and pissed. I just feel better having more punch.
I don’t think think I can shoot the 40 as good as some others.
My line of thinking would come from the old days. Like doing traffic stops, it goes bad and you have to take2-3 shots from the hip at nose hair distances. At an individual that’s wearing layers of Carhart artic wear, who weighs 250 pounds and is drunk and pissed. I just feel better having more punch.
I think it would depend on bullets but rational thinking says a heavy 40 at the same speed would go deeper than a lighter 9 provided equal resistance.
All you he-men can pound your chest all you want. But if you think you can shoot a .40 to the same level you can a 9 you have no idea what you’re talking about.
I can, of course I need a larger handgun in the .40 S&W to do so and sometimes that's just fine.
If you need a bigger gun to shot a .40 just as well as a 9, then you can shoot a .40 as well as a 9.
I don’t think think I can shoot the 40 as good as some others.
My line of thinking would come from the old days. Like doing traffic stops, it goes bad and you have to take2-3 shots from the hip at nose hair distances. At an individual that’s wearing layers of Carhart artic wear, who weighs 250 pounds and is drunk and pissed. I just feel better having more punch.
I always feel better if the jokers put the whole fifth of Vodka IN the punch.
I can put 230 grains on target with one pull of the trigger, making my 'split time' twice as fast as anybody shooting 115 grain 9mm.
That's funny right there...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
My P226 40 with 200gr XTP's at 1041 fps is very comfortable, I do not feel the snap some talk about with it so loaded, feels like a 45 ACP to me.
Speaking of cartridge comparisons, and I took no pleasure in any of this, had to shoot a stray walker? hound here at the farm for livestock depredation, a 230gr gold dot at 966 fps entered the flank tight against the hip and exited neck vertebrae then rear side of the skull, I'm thankful it was without a twitch of suffering, anyway, I studied the wound channel, and path, with my hand spread as far as it will go, from tip of thumb to little finger is 10 inches, that bullet went near 27 inches and exited.
I don't know chit about 9mm vs 40 cal vs 45 acp vs 10mm vs 38 super etc, etc, I do know a 45 cal 230gr gold dot on hide, bone and muscle will get the chit wrecked out of it, also don't have any barrier experience with gold dots, but it completely wrecked that dog.
I can't imagine that anyone is going to outdo a 9 loaded with the right ammo when we're talking about cc/sd/duty for the whole package of speed, accuracy, stopping ability, etc. It's hard to argue with ALL the numbers. I guess Stick is right about bullets mattering more than headstamps.
I shoot all versions of hot-loaded 9 better than hot-loaded 40. But I'll carry a 40 10/10 times into the sticks, and will feel far more confident with 200gr bullets at 1050 fps than I do with 147's at the same speed.
I can't imagine that anyone is going to outdo a 9 loaded with the right ammo when we're talking about cc/sd/duty for the whole package of speed, accuracy, stopping ability, etc. It's hard to argue with ALL the numbers. I guess Stick is right about bullets mattering more than headstamps.
I shoot all versions of hot-loaded 9 better than hot-loaded 40. But I'll carry a 40 10/10 times into the sticks, and will feel far more confident with 200gr bullets at 1050 fps than I do with 147's at the same speed.
My opinion of the 9 is that you have to hot load it to get top performance. With the 40, it pretty much comes loaded hot enough, as is. The 45 may be more problematic to hot load. All in all, not much difference in the top loads of all of them. For concealment, make mine 9. For concealment not mattering...40. If you have to use Ball, 45...though I don't think Ball ammo is that great in any caliber.
I can't imagine that anyone is going to outdo a 9 loaded with the right ammo when we're talking about cc/sd/duty for the whole package of speed, accuracy, stopping ability, etc. It's hard to argue with ALL the numbers. I guess Stick is right about bullets mattering more than headstamps.
I shoot all versions of hot-loaded 9 better than hot-loaded 40. But I'll carry a 40 10/10 times into the sticks, and will feel far more confident with 200gr bullets at 1050 fps than I do with 147's at the same speed.
I don't understand why anybody would carry 147's in the 9, other than subsonic for supressed guns.
My P226 40 with 200gr XTP's at 1041 fps is very comfortable, I do not feel the snap some talk about with it so loaded, feels like a 45 ACP to me.
Speaking of cartridge comparisons, and I took no pleasure in any of this, had to shoot a stray walker? hound here at the farm for livestock depredation, a 230gr gold dot at 966 fps entered the flank tight against the hip and exited neck vertebrae then rear side of the skull, I'm thankful it was without a twitch of suffering, anyway, I studied the wound channel, and path, with my hand spread as far as it will go, from tip of thumb to little finger is 10 inches, that bullet went near 27 inches and exited.
I don't know chit about 9mm vs 40 cal vs 45 acp vs 10mm vs 38 super etc, etc, I do know a 45 cal 230gr gold dot on hide, bone and muscle will get the chit wrecked out of it, also don't have any barrier experience with gold dots, but it completely wrecked that dog.
A Walker is a good dawg. Too bad you couldn't have caught him up for your own before he started running cows. When they start running cows they got to go to the Happy Hunting Grounds. RIP, but good shooting.
I can't imagine that anyone is going to outdo a 9 loaded with the right ammo when we're talking about cc/sd/duty for the whole package of speed, accuracy, stopping ability, etc. It's hard to argue with ALL the numbers. I guess Stick is right about bullets mattering more than headstamps.
I shoot all versions of hot-loaded 9 better than hot-loaded 40. But I'll carry a 40 10/10 times into the sticks, and will feel far more confident with 200gr bullets at 1050 fps than I do with 147's at the same speed.
I don't understand why anybody would carry 147's in the 9, other than subsonic for supressed guns.
EE, I picked up a box of Federal 147 fmjs to try in my Glock 35 with a 9mm conversion barrel. They seemed to shoot to the sights and grouped very well.
I can't imagine that anyone is going to outdo a 9 loaded with the right ammo when we're talking about cc/sd/duty for the whole package of speed, accuracy, stopping ability, etc. It's hard to argue with ALL the numbers. I guess Stick is right about bullets mattering more than headstamps.
I shoot all versions of hot-loaded 9 better than hot-loaded 40. But I'll carry a 40 10/10 times into the sticks, and will feel far more confident with 200gr bullets at 1050 fps than I do with 147's at the same speed.
I don't understand why anybody would carry 147's in the 9, other than subsonic for supressed guns.
Penetration and performance on barriers.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
I can't imagine that anyone is going to outdo a 9 loaded with the right ammo when we're talking about cc/sd/duty for the whole package of speed, accuracy, stopping ability, etc. It's hard to argue with ALL the numbers. I guess Stick is right about bullets mattering more than headstamps.
I shoot all versions of hot-loaded 9 better than hot-loaded 40. But I'll carry a 40 10/10 times into the sticks, and will feel far more confident with 200gr bullets at 1050 fps than I do with 147's at the same speed.
I don't understand why anybody would carry 147's in the 9, other than subsonic for supressed guns.
Penetration and performance on barriers.
147 grain +P+ Gold Dot hits hard and make a big expanded bullet.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I can't imagine that anyone is going to outdo a 9 loaded with the right ammo when we're talking about cc/sd/duty for the whole package of speed, accuracy, stopping ability, etc. It's hard to argue with ALL the numbers. I guess Stick is right about bullets mattering more than headstamps.
I shoot all versions of hot-loaded 9 better than hot-loaded 40. But I'll carry a 40 10/10 times into the sticks, and will feel far more confident with 200gr bullets at 1050 fps than I do with 147's at the same speed.
I don't understand why anybody would carry 147's in the 9, other than subsonic for supressed guns.
Penetration and performance on barriers.
And excellent results on shutting bad guys down. The new age 147's aren't your daddy's 147.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
I can't imagine that anyone is going to outdo a 9 loaded with the right ammo when we're talking about cc/sd/duty for the whole package of speed, accuracy, stopping ability, etc. It's hard to argue with ALL the numbers. I guess Stick is right about bullets mattering more than headstamps.
I shoot all versions of hot-loaded 9 better than hot-loaded 40. But I'll carry a 40 10/10 times into the sticks, and will feel far more confident with 200gr bullets at 1050 fps than I do with 147's at the same speed.
I don't understand why anybody would carry 147's in the 9, other than subsonic for supressed guns.
I can't imagine that anyone is going to outdo a 9 loaded with the right ammo when we're talking about cc/sd/duty for the whole package of speed, accuracy, stopping ability, etc. It's hard to argue with ALL the numbers. I guess Stick is right about bullets mattering more than headstamps. I shoot all versions of hot-loaded 9 better than hot-loaded 40. But I'll carry a 40 10/10 times into the sticks, and will feel far more confident with 200gr bullets at 1050 fps than I do with 147's at the same speed.
I don't understand why anybody would carry 147's in the 9, other than subsonic for supressed guns.
Penetration and performance on barriers.
And excellent results on shutting bad guys down. The new age 147's aren't your daddy's 147.
LOL
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
I love that the .40 is in the process of lost favor.....makes for cheaper 40's in the used case. I have many .40 handguns and love them all and recently picked up a used Sig P229 for $375 that was German made with the short extractor with 3 mags, two grips, night sights and the plastic box and struggled to find any wear on the pistol. The LGS guy told me many of the pistols in their used case have seen less than 300-500 rounds.
If you handload you can warm up some rounds to mid 10mm levels or load down to bunny loads. Great caliber for woods carry and love the accuracy.
My P226 40 with 200gr XTP's at 1041 fps is very comfortable, I do not feel the snap some talk about with it so loaded, feels like a 45 ACP to me.
Speaking of cartridge comparisons, and I took no pleasure in any of this, had to shoot a stray walker? hound here at the farm for livestock depredation, a 230gr gold dot at 966 fps entered the flank tight against the hip and exited neck vertebrae then rear side of the skull, I'm thankful it was without a twitch of suffering, anyway, I studied the wound channel, and path, with my hand spread as far as it will go, from tip of thumb to little finger is 10 inches, that bullet went near 27 inches and exited.
I don't know chit about 9mm vs 40 cal vs 45 acp vs 10mm vs 38 super etc, etc, I do know a 45 cal 230gr gold dot on hide, bone and muscle will get the chit wrecked out of it, also don't have any barrier experience with gold dots, but it completely wrecked that dog.
A Walker is a good dawg. Too bad you couldn't have caught him up for your own before he started running cows. When they start running cows they got to go to the Happy Hunting Grounds. RIP, but good shooting.
Yes EE, that whole thing sucked, the dog was a skin and bones stray without collar and was probably sick and going to die soon anyway, he wasn't running cows, but had caught one of Wifes fat laying hens, I cant blame him for that, he was starving, no personal malice towards the dog, but, you just cant do that here, his previous owner is the one that needed shooting more!
Well, as between my 26 and 30, the 26 is most comfortable to carry and gives me one extra round, but then per round I would think the 45 would be more effective.
I wonder just how important the time between shots really is? Is it that much better on the street to be able to group 5-6 rounds in one second into a quarter with a 9mm than to put three rounds of 40 or 45 caliber into the same quarter in the same time? Just where does practical morph into lily gilding in this topic?
I personally feel the first shot is the most important and no matter which round the gun is chambered in I'm equally slow for that first shot. Anything beyond that will have to settle for whatever "splits" conditions and surroundings allow. Competition is great for some things but using it as a measurement of need is not what competition was designed for. If it were then I would miss a lot fewer game birds than I do.
The snake oil marketing bs in some of that ad makes everything else they claim suspect as well IMO. But I'm sure some folks will swallow it up. I think there's some merit to what they're attempting though so it'll be an interesting thing to keep an eye on.
FWIW I've been making/shooting my own 180gr 9mm bullet for a couple years for subsonic/suppressed loads. Heavy bullets like this are picky about what brass they use, which is probably why Seismic is using those hybrid cases.
The snake oil marketing bs in some of that ad makes everything else they claim suspect as well IMO. But I'm sure some folks will swallow it up. I think there's some merit to what they're attempting though so it'll be an interesting thing to keep an eye on.
FWIW I've been making/shooting my own 180gr 9mm bullet for a couple years for subsonic/suppressed loads. Heavy bullets like this are picky about what brass they use, which is probably why Seismic is using those hybrid cases.
That's my take; it's an interesting heavy bullet load for the cartridge. If it works as advertised, it opens new doors for the 9mm.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
The snake oil marketing bs in some of that ad makes everything else they claim suspect as well IMO. But I'm sure some folks will swallow it up. I think there's some merit to what they're attempting though so it'll be an interesting thing to keep an eye on.
FWIW I've been making/shooting my own 180gr 9mm bullet for a couple years for subsonic/suppressed loads. Heavy bullets like this are picky about what brass they use, which is probably why Seismic is using those hybrid cases.
That's my take; it's an interesting heavy bullet load for the cartridge. If it works as advertised, it opens new doors for the 9mm.
In what way?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
My P226 40 with 200gr XTP's at 1041 fps is very comfortable, I do not feel the snap some talk about with it so loaded, feels like a 45 ACP to me.
Speaking of cartridge comparisons, and I took no pleasure in any of this, had to shoot a stray walker? hound here at the farm for livestock depredation, a 230gr gold dot at 966 fps entered the flank tight against the hip and exited neck vertebrae then rear side of the skull, I'm thankful it was without a twitch of suffering, anyway, I studied the wound channel, and path, with my hand spread as far as it will go, from tip of thumb to little finger is 10 inches, that bullet went near 27 inches and exited.
I don't know chit about 9mm vs 40 cal vs 45 acp vs 10mm vs 38 super etc, etc, I do know a 45 cal 230gr gold dot on hide, bone and muscle will get the chit wrecked out of it, also don't have any barrier experience with gold dots, but it completely wrecked that dog.
A Walker is a good dawg. Too bad you couldn't have caught him up for your own before he started running cows. When they start running cows they got to go to the Happy Hunting Grounds. RIP, but good shooting.
Yes EE, that whole thing sucked, the dog was a skin and bones stray without collar and was probably sick and going to die soon anyway, he wasn't running cows, but had caught one of Wifes fat laying hens, I cant blame him for that, he was starving, no personal malice towards the dog, but, you just cant do that here, his previous owner is the one that needed shooting more!
You probably did him a favor amigo. The thing about them coon dawgs is they will run and run and run and the owners can try hard to find them and just can't. On other breeds, I'd say the same as you, but maybe this one just outran his people...or maybe it's just as you say. Either way, can't have him eating the livestock, whether hooved or feathered. I would've done the same as you, and one of my best dogs was a Walker. RIP Scout.
I can't imagine that anyone is going to outdo a 9 loaded with the right ammo when we're talking about cc/sd/duty for the whole package of speed, accuracy, stopping ability, etc. It's hard to argue with ALL the numbers. I guess Stick is right about bullets mattering more than headstamps.
I shoot all versions of hot-loaded 9 better than hot-loaded 40. But I'll carry a 40 10/10 times into the sticks, and will feel far more confident with 200gr bullets at 1050 fps than I do with 147's at the same speed.
I don't understand why anybody would carry 147's in the 9, other than subsonic for supressed guns.
I just in the last year bought a few boxes of the Hornady 135gr +P Critical Duty, and have the Nines loaded up with that. Honestly though, I think I'll be migrating back to the 147gr. I just like it, I favor deeper penetration first.
I just in the last year bought a few boxes of the Hornady 135gr +P Critical Duty, and have the Nines loaded up with that. Honestly though, I think I'll be migrating back to the 147gr. I just like it, I favor deeper penetration first.
I believe the FBI just chose the Hornady Critical Duty 135 +P for its ability to penetrate.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
My P226 40 with 200gr XTP's at 1041 fps is very comfortable, I do not feel the snap some talk about with it so loaded, feels like a 45 ACP to me.
Speaking of cartridge comparisons, and I took no pleasure in any of this, had to shoot a stray walker? hound here at the farm for livestock depredation, a 230gr gold dot at 966 fps entered the flank tight against the hip and exited neck vertebrae then rear side of the skull, I'm thankful it was without a twitch of suffering, anyway, I studied the wound channel, and path, with my hand spread as far as it will go, from tip of thumb to little finger is 10 inches, that bullet went near 27 inches and exited.
I don't know chit about 9mm vs 40 cal vs 45 acp vs 10mm vs 38 super etc, etc, I do know a 45 cal 230gr gold dot on hide, bone and muscle will get the chit wrecked out of it, also don't have any barrier experience with gold dots, but it completely wrecked that dog.
A Walker is a good dawg. Too bad you couldn't have caught him up for your own before he started running cows. When they start running cows they got to go to the Happy Hunting Grounds. RIP, but good shooting.
Yes EE, that whole thing sucked, the dog was a skin and bones stray without collar and was probably sick and going to die soon anyway, he wasn't running cows, but had caught one of Wifes fat laying hens, I cant blame him for that, he was starving, no personal malice towards the dog, but, you just cant do that here, his previous owner is the one that needed shooting more!
You probably did him a favor amigo. The thing about them coon dawgs is they will run and run and run and the owners can try hard to find them and just can't. On other breeds, I'd say the same as you, but maybe this one just outran his people...or maybe it's just as you say. Either way, can't have him eating the livestock, whether hooved or feathered. I would've done the same as you, and one of my best dogs was a Walker. RIP Scout.
I just in the last year bought a few boxes of the Hornady 135gr +P Critical Duty, and have the Nines loaded up with that. Honestly though, I think I'll be migrating back to the 147gr. I just like it, I favor deeper penetration first.
Everybody wants deeper penetration. You, me, steelhead, TWR, Kim Kardashian.........
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
I suppose a person can 'tiptoe through the tulips ' with any of them. The 40's seem to be in disfavor only because of the big PD's going to 9mm for accommodation to certain needs. Ant there are significant bargains in buying a Glock 40 these days from trade-ins that appear new or near new. And calibers can be changed in that platform.
I suppose a person can 'tiptoe through the tulips ' with any of them. The 40's seem to be in disfavor only because of the big PD's going to 9mm for accommodation to certain needs. Ant there are significant bargains in buying a Glock 40 these days from trade-ins that appear new or near new. And calibers can be changed in that platform.
I had a long career in LE, with most of it in firearms training and heavy influence of procurement. I stayed in touch with my counterparts at several larger municipal, county and state agencies. Let me break some news to you... LE Agencies are some of the worst Fad Beotches when it comes to choosing weapons and munitions. If two or more large, nationally known agencies adopt a cartridge/platform, hundreds of smaller ones will break their necks and their budgets to get it. Reams of paper are expended justifying this 'needed change' and days are wasted selling to to whatever government entity is expected to finance it. 98% of the people making these decisions have never seen a living thing shot with a service caliber pistol, much less shooting it themselves, and they have never dressed a head of game shot with them, attended an autopsy etc.
The best analogy of LE Firearms is 'the wave' at concerts and sports events. Most of the people involved don't have a clue why they're doing it.They just know everybody else is, and they don't want to be left out.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
I suppose a person can 'tiptoe through the tulips ' with any of them. The 40's seem to be in disfavor only because of the big PD's going to 9mm for accommodation to certain needs. Ant there are significant bargains in buying a Glock 40 these days from trade-ins that appear new or near new. And calibers can be changed in that platform.
I had a long career in LE, with most of it in firearms training and heavy influence of procurement. I stayed in touch with my counterparts at several larger municipal, county and state agencies. Let me break some news to you... LE Agencies are some of the worst Fad Beotches when it comes to choosing weapons and munitions. If two or more large, nationally known agencies adopt a cartridge/platform, hundreds of smaller ones will break their necks and their budgets to get it. Reams of paper are expended justifying this 'needed change' and days are wasted selling to to whatever government entity is expected to finance it. 98% of the people making these decisions have never seen a living thing shot with a service caliber pistol, much less shooting it themselves, and they have never dressed a head of game shot with them, attended an autopsy etc.
The best analogy of LE Firearms is 'the wave' at concerts and sports events. Most of the people involved don't have a clue why they're doing it.They just know everybody else is, and they don't want to be left out.
boy isn't that the truth. but if it wasn't, a bunch of those nice weapons coming out of california depts would stop and that would be a bad thing. i have seen a number for sale dumped by those agencies that still had the factory grease in them.
I saw the process repeat itself time after time. The shift from 38's to 357's, the rise of the wonder-nine, the exodus to Glocks; and the shift 10mm to 40 S&W and the advancements in bullet technology that followed. And now finally, we are back to the nines.
I remember rolling out of shift change as a rookie with a Model 15, two dump pouches of Remington 125 38 Specials and a four-shot 870 in the rack. I hold no find memories of those revolvers. We wanted better armament and we eventually got it. In my opinion, the pinnacle of duty pistols was a night-sighted G22 with 15 165 grain HSTs on board and 28 more on the belt. But the only thing constant is change.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
I had a Sig P239 in .357 Sig back in the 1990s. It was my regular carry gun for a few months, as I took it to the range regularly in an effort to master it in terms of the transition from double to single action. I had no trouble with it in terms of recoil, flash, and blast, but never felt really comfortable with that transition, so ended up switching to 1911s in .45 ACP, which I stuck with for quite a few years. As for the .357 Sig round itself, I don't think it has enough to offer over a hot 9mm to justify its increased cost per round and reduced capacity.
357 sig or full 10mm both have the upper limits of recoil most shooters can handle, large muzzle blast and a fair amount of muzzle flip. that is why no major agencies are using either currently and those that are are transitioning to 9mm. Also when talking about agencies with a large number of shooters ammunition cost comes into play, there is no economy of scale with 357 sig or full 10 compared to 9mm or 45. The overall civilian and le demand for these calibers is low so prices are high.
Bottom line is that is you use a top end bonded bullet in most self defense situations 38, 357, 9, 40 or 45 will all work equally well if you can do your part with your shooting iron.
I use all of the above calibers except for 357 sig, which I have used in the past, I am gtg with them all.
There are several large agencies carrying the 357 Sig. Including federal agencies
IMO the Sig round has less recoil and less muzzle flash than a 40
When we transitioned to the 357 Sig from the 45 ammo cost was the same
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
I think it accomplished the goal of duplicating the ballistics of the Federal 125 grain 357 Mag load, from 4" service revolvers, in a semiauto platform.
But the Federal 9BPLE gets awfully close.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
I just in the last year bought a few boxes of the Hornady 135gr +P Critical Duty, and have the Nines loaded up with that. Honestly though, I think I'll be migrating back to the 147gr. I just like it, I favor deeper penetration first.
I believe the FBI just chose the Hornady Critical Duty 135 +P for its ability to penetrate.
I just in the last year bought a few boxes of the Hornady 135gr +P Critical Duty, and have the Nines loaded up with that. Honestly though, I think I'll be migrating back to the 147gr. I just like it, I favor deeper penetration first.
Everybody wants deeper penetration. You, me, steelhead, TWR, Kim Kardashian.........
I think it accomplished the goal of duplicating the ballistics of the Federal 125 grain 357 Mag load, from 4" service revolvers, in a semiauto platform.
But the Federal 9BPLE gets awfully close.
Corbon steps on its heels pretty good without exceeding 3850 PSI.
I think it accomplished the goal of duplicating the ballistics of the Federal 125 grain 357 Mag load, from 4" service revolvers, in a semiauto platform.
But the Federal 9BPLE gets awfully close.
The best factory loads for the 9 ever produced IMO.
Started on the PD in 1969 with a 38spl.Dept went to 9mm in 1987, then to 40s&w in 1995. I am retired now and do qualify yearly with a Springfield sub compact mod 2 45 acp using 230 gold dots. Mag 10+1, extended mag 13+1. Those young officers shooting their 40's are sure surprised when I keep up with them shooting my 45, then they find out that I am 75 years old, they just shake their heads and smile.
Those young officers shooting their 40's are sure surprised when I keep up with them shooting my 45, then they find out that I am 75 years old, they just shake their heads and smile.
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