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Shooters ,

OK I've heard from the fellows using the new Labradar Doppler . Some of them also have the Oehler .
NOW , I'd like to hear from the shooters still using the P35 . I've got one , bought it used after going through a Crony .
It's in excellent shape , but I haven't had a chance to try it yet .
Seems the big reason most go to the Labradar is ease of setup .
I don't know myself , I did read the instructions , but I've never gone through the actual setup .
SO other than the setup is the Labradar a lot easier or better to work with ?

Thank you in advance for your time and consideration .
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There's no doubt the Labradar is handier to set up than the 35P. But am still using my 35P now, for several reasons. One, I already have it, and don't do my chronographing at a public range, so the set-up isn't a problem. Have used it so long, I'm also ready pretty quickly.

Two, apparently Labradars have problems with small-caliber bullets, even some boattailed .224's, and I do a lot of chronographing of little bullets, which the Oehler easily handles. Also, the Labradar also has problems with velocities above 3900 fps, and on occasiona I also chronograph some really zippy loads.

That said, there's no doubt I'll be buying a Labradar in the not too distant future--especially if I can somehow keep myself from buying more rifles. Just one average rifle would fund it....


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer


That said, there's no doubt I'll be buying a Labradar in the not too distant future--especially if I can somehow keep myself from buying more rifles. Just one average rifle would fund it....

Careful...

You could forfeit your Loony card... grin

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I shortened up my setup time a bunch by wire tying all my cables together. I have a 8-10 & 12 ft markings on the cable for distance. Loop the cable around my rest so that the distance mark is right on the muzzle. To line it up easy I have a 20 ft kite string that loops around either a turret or the back leveling knob of the rest, then under the stock. Stretch the string line up and level. Takes about 10-15 min. from opening the case. I shoot at a public range and have no problems. Also I can read small 17 cal, zippy 4000+ and I am not limited on distance.

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Swify,

I also have all my cables tied together. That helps considerably!

Also chronograph on the same range every time, so have a place marked out for the stands. Since I can drive right up to it, set-up takes at most 5 minutes.


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Wish I could mark the stand placement but they would disappear. I could probably cut setup time down some more but being old, slow and having all day, why rush it.



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Yep, I know the feeling!


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It's too bad you fellows never had the joy of using a real chronograph. An older fellow at my club used to talk about them.

The Stutz-Packard 1000
copyright 2014 – Stephen Redgwell

I can always depend on the oldsters at my gun club to offer their opinions on the latest gear. And why not? Wisdom is supposed to come with age, right?

Talk to a cram of seniors about shooting or hunting, and they’ll all try to convince you that such and such a rifle, bullet or scope is the best. They are always too happy to give you their opinions - based on years of experience – even if you didn’t ask. If you’re younger and reading this, consider my narrative a head’s up. You cannot escape them.

If you’re an ‘in betweener’, that is, someone who is middle aged, you are in an unenviable position within the shooting/hunting community. You’re too young to know what the oldsters are talking about, but too old to hang out with the younger crowd. That is the rub; you don’t belong to any identifiable group. Only a handful of people know you. No one says much, except the standard greeting when they walk by.

As someone from that group, I have tried everything to engage people in conversation after they’ve finished shooting. The trouble is, if they don’t know you, they don’t really want to talk. You can try the weather, favourite game animal or the latest news headline, but that only lasts for a minute. Shortly thereafter, you are back to an awkward silence. That said, nothing sparks up a conversation like a new piece of shooting gear!

We used to have an old fellow that shot four or five times a week at the 100 yard range. He never said much, and the others let him be. I thought that despite his age, we had some things in common. The biggest thing being that not too many people stopped to chat with me either.

He was very thin, 5 foot 3 maybe, and had a full head of bright white hair that always seemed in need of a trim. He wore a pair of older style, black framed glasses and an ancient hat. I think that it was beige once, but ‘once’ would have been thirty or forty years ago. He kept to himself, but with that hair, was easy to spot. He’d shoot for a while, and then stop for a coffee. He always had a Thermos in his range bag. In 15 years, I’d never heard him speak.

Last spring, I needed to test some loads for a 30-30.I had just bought a new Mossberg lever. I bought it because the reviews were okay and the price was right. My plan was to shoot some 170 grain cast bullets and head home. I brought a small range bag, my chronograph, and the rifle. I put the bag on the ground and the rifle on the bench. The old fellow was using No 4, the lane three over from me, and watched my every move. We were the only ones there, so I asked him if I could hang some targets and set up my chronograph.

“Go ahead.” was all he said. He didn’t get up or even look my way. He just waved me forward.

After everything was ready, I sat down at the bench and started loading the rifle. That’s when he stood up and came over.

“What in the hell possessed you to put a scope on that 30-30?”

He sounded angry.

“It’s a Leupold 2.5x20mm Ultralight.”

“So? Lever rifles ain’t supposed to be scoped!”

My folks taught me never to argue with someone older, but it was difficult not to respond.

“Well, I wear glasses." I figured he’d understand that. He had a pair himself.

“So? How do you think older hunters got game years ago? They didn’t have scopes or glasses to wear!”

Wasn’t this interesting?

“Well, that’s what I’ve got. Thanks for the advice.” I raised rifle to my shoulder and was getting ready to shoot.

“Hey, is that a chronograph?”

I nodded yes.

“I had an old chronograph. Yours looks like it’s made of plastic.”

“A lot of the parts these days are plastic. It’s a Pro Chrono. They aren’t expensive, but work great for what I need.”

The old guy walked up to my bench, crouched down and stared downrange. I figured he was checking the line of sight, so I put my rifle down.

“Does it use that new-fangled electronic ignition?”

What an odd way of putting it! So I answered, “Electronic ignition? Yeah, it’s got electronics in it. I’m not technically inclined, so I don’t know exactly how it’s made.”

He just looked at me and shook his head. “The trouble with people like you is you think that these new inventions are the bee's knees. They don’t always work so good, you know. Mine was an older gas model. I had to pump it a couple of times to get it to turn over.”

“What?”

“Are ya deaf? I said, I had to give my chrono a pump. Beside the gas tank there is a pump. You unscrew a brass knob, put your thumb over the hole in the knob and give it a couple of pumps to prime her. I still got it, but my son says I can’t use it because they don’t make leaded gas anymore.”

I was confused. It sounded like he was talking about a Coleman stove. I must have looked puzzled because he stared back and shook his head like he was talking to an idiot. Then he explained how his chronograph worked.

“I bought mine after reading the ads in the back of Field and Stream magazine. I remember like it was yesterday. It was the June 1956 edition. The ad said something like, ‘Are you tired of relying on factory ammunition for your hunt? Make your own and save! And don’t forget the chrono!’ So, I bought one. It's a real beauty. She’s fire engine red with chrome trim – a Stutz-Packard 1000. Their slogan was, ‘Welcome to the Future!’ One thing I gotta say is it sure beat the heck out of the older, steam driven chronographs.”

He wasn't making any sense, and that was probably the reason why no one bothered with him.

“Yep, it cost me $19.99 plus $1 shipping. That was a lot of money in 1956. I thought the wife was gonna shoot me! The day I got it, I took the box out back and set everything up. She’s well made. I guess she weighs about 25 pounds without the stand.”

“This IS a chrono we’re talking about, right?” I asked. He sounded mixed up.

“Yes. What’s wrong with you, son? Don’t you speak English? The Stutz-Packard 1000 was cutting edge in its day. It took half a gallon of high test gas, fired by America’s favourite, a Champion spark plug. There’s nothing better.”

“Oh...” What could I say?

“Your chrono has cheap shields.” He said, pointing at my machine.

“What shields?”

“Them cheap looking, plastic atmospheric shields on top. The Stutz-Packard has chromed shields with fins on the back. It sure looks racy.”

“They call them diffusers these days.”

“I’ll bet you paid a premium for those plastic shields. That’s the problem with the world. Everything’s made so cheap. I’ll bet they’re made offshore somewhere using slave labor.”

“Actually, my chrono is made in the USA.”

“Not with plastic parts like that it ain’t. Sorry son, you got took. And where’s the speedo?”

“The speedo?”

“Yes, you need one of them so you can see how fast the bullets are going! My speedo is built on underneath. The needle and numbers are fluorescent, so you can read the dial in virtually any light. For another $2, I could have got the illuminated speedo, but I just couldn’t manage the extra money. It’s touches like that what made the Stutz-Packard a premium buy.”

At this point, I didn’t know whether he was serious or just pulling my leg. Still, it couldn’t hurt to play along, and I said,

“If you look at the plastic screen on the back of the unit, you can see the digital display. When I take my first shot, the display will tell me the velocity.”

The old guy smiled and patted me on the back.

“I’ll tell ya what, son. You have fun with your cheap plastic, electrical chronograph – without fins, or any chrome. I found my loads a long time ago, and get a deer every fall. My old chronograph gave me many years of service before the Arabs took away the leaded gas. Thank goodness I managed to work up all my loads before the gas crisis in the 1970s.”

With that, he walked back to his bench. As he was leaving, I said, “It was nice talking to you.”

“You too, son. One day, when you’re older, you’ll understand the wisdom. It’s too bad you’ll never have the thrill of using a REAL chronograph.”

I just smiled and waved. When he was out of earshot, I started to laugh, thinking that I was simply too young to have experienced the golden age of reloading with a Stutz-Packard 1000.


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
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I don't find the setup on the 35P to be that difficult. I use a laser bore sighter. I set the rifle up, bagged on the bench, pointed at the target. I insert the laser bore sighter and turn the laser on. I then use my hand behind a screen to get the laser beam in the right spot. Repeat on the other end, check and final adjustment and I'm good to go.

Most of the time, I've got my screens about 68" off the ground as I shoot from a stand-up bench on a trailer. Setting screens up this high is more challenging than doing so for a seated bench. The laser makes things much simpler.

For all chronographs, what concerns me the most is the validity of the numbers given. I've seen many brands of chronograph. I've seen all them give bad numbers. How did I know the numbers were "bad"? Simple, I was running two chronographs (or one that gives two readings).

If two chronographs agree, it is reasonable to believe either one. If they don't agree, one of them must be wrong. Problem is WHICH ONE?

When running one chronograph, all you have to go on is what you expected to get. If it is 50 fps fast or slow, was that due to a chrono error or is something else going on?

Personally, I like the 35P...but only trust it if used with the "Proof" screen. This setup actually gives two readings. The manual tells you they won't always be exactly the same but it gives guidelines as to what variance is reasonable and what variance should be cause for skepticism. The 35P also gives you the ability to increase expected accuracy by using a longer screen spacing. Typically, I use a 9' spacing.

With a lot of life's situations, we pay for convenience. Measuring velocity is no different. The Labradar is convenient (I have one). If I planned to use the Labradar for serious work, I'd need another one (or some other chronograph) to check each measurement for validity.

Therefore, for the same degree of confidence in velocity measurements, one 35P or two LabRadars. The "convenience" of setting up and running two LabRadars is not worth the extra cost over the 35P, at least to me.

For the record, this is not a slight on LabRadar. I'd trust it just as much as I'd trust the Oehler 35P used without the "Proof" screen. Since I always use the "Proof" screen on the 35P, I'd need TWO LabRadars to achieve the same level of confidence.

There are some very smart, very well respected folks in the ballistics world that trust numbers provided by the LabRadar...if they are running TWO at the same time and get agreement.

Good luck on whatever you decide to use.

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Steve,

Nice fable!

But a long time ago, before I could dream of affording an electronic chronograph, I built a ballistic pendulum, based on the information from P.O. Ackley's book, in the "crawl space" (about 3-1/2 feet high) of the house I then lived in. This was on the edge of a very small town in eastern Montana, and I guessed nobody would notice the thump of a .30-06 going off. None of the neighbors did, but the subterranean thump of a .30-06 definitely was a surprise to people who were visiting my first wife during my experiments.


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Buford,

Of course, EXCELLENT point. I know Bryan Litz uses two Labradars now.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Steve,

Nice fable!




JB, you got me on that one laugh laugh
I was scrolling through this thread thinking holy crap, Steve is writing a novel. but no novel you were correct it was a FABEL laugh

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btw: even if I get a LabRadar, I won't ever get rid of my 35P

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Mostly I use a 35P because I have one.

My general experience is that here just off the Henry's Fork I have no problem getting a cold range to setup. I do have a problem with a cold range, when the snow is several feet deep, a LabRadar would be nice.

Easy setup on the Oehler demands something like a 4X4 on sawhorse style stands which implies some place to keep the pieces and a pickup to haul the rig. First time I set up the rig when it was all new and shiny out of the gun case with the furnished tripods and conduit I found the magic words stay there until I turn my back applied as it blew over and skidded several feet while the paper unrolled. I wonder how the LabRadar with stand handles wind? I wouldn't mind having the dip switches on the printer a little more visible; I have neglected them going from a short sensor distance ball park on handgun carry loads to a max sensor distance rifle uniformity and some idea of the pressure series.

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One advantage with the 35 is that you can set the internal switches so that it thinks it's measuring a screen spacing 1 foot longer than it actually is. Set it up at the local trap or skeet range some weekend for the regulars to test their reloads. It's pretty entertaining.

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Steve,

Nice fable!


Fable?!? I'm shocked that you would doubt the word of a white haired member of the shooting fraternity! I believe his name is Aubry. I'll see if I can get him to tell me about the steam powered ones. I believe steam is environ-mentally friendly. crazy

We now return you to the regularly scheduled program already in progress...


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
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Guys ,

This is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for before I spend $$$ on a new Doppler .

I was afraid I bought something , although in excellent shape , that was already outdated .
All before I got a chance to use it !!!

Any additional information or tips on setting up will be greatly appreciated.

Soup


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When setting up the 35P (or any other light-screen chronograph) I use the method suggested in the directions, I believe written by Ken Oehler himself:

Set up your rifle on bags, aimed at the downrange target you'll be shooting. Then, with the rifle unloaded and bolt open, set up the chronograph, aligning it while looking over the screens at the muzzle/scope of the rifle. This is quicker than any other method I've tried.


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Originally Posted by Swifty52
I shortened up my setup time a bunch by wire tying all my cables together. I have a 8-10 & 12 ft markings on the cable for distance.


^^^ This ^^^


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I found it helpful to put a wrap of tape around each plug. Green for "Start", yellow for "Mid" and red for "Stop".

If you want downrange measurements, place something under the back of the box so that it sits upright. You can then read the display thru a spotting scope. Oh, put the box as far from the target as the cables allow. Skyscreens, rails and diffusers are inexpensive and easy to replace. That "brain", not so much.

I became fascinated with chronographs as soon as I began to obtain firearms (teenager). A guy had an Oehler Model 10 at the range. This system used a piece of paper for each screen. The paper had silver printing on it and a bullet passing thru tripped the counter. A new piece of paper had to be used, on each screen, for each shot. You then turned a dial that corresponded with some numbers and you wrote down whatever number the dial was on when the needle pointed to "Yes". You then looked that number up in a table and it would tell you the velocity of that shot.

I wanted one. I contacted Oehler and found out they had a new model, the 12, that used "skyscreens". That's right, no more paper screens. I saved up my money and bought one. I still have some data from that chronograph. While in college, I sold it to two friends. Much later, I tried to buy it back. Each friend insisted that the other one had it. I suspect it has been lost forever.

I met Dr. Oehler in about 1996. I was assigned as a Firearms Instructor at the FBI Academy. I learned he was going to be visiting the Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) and I made sure I got down there to meet him. I told him I was a long time fan and that I had owned a Model 12. His response: "Son, you are not old enough to have owned a Model 12." I believe subsequent conversations have convinced him that I did, indeed, own a Model 12 at one time.

Within less than a year I was notified that I was being assigned to take over the BRF. I had oversight of that facility from April, 1997 to August 2012. Like most in the industry, we used a lot of Oehler equipment. We shot a lot of tests. I'd hazard to say that we got to experience many issues that others may not see or understand. I spent a lot of time talking with, and learning from, Dr. Oehler. during those years. At the BRF, we setup regular "training sessions" wherein we would run multiple measurements and change setups to see how it would effect the outcome. We ran sessions to create issues and troubleshoot them. We got pretty experienced with measuring pressure, velocity, time of flight and terminal performance.

Following retirement, I've been fortunate to become close friends with Dr. Oehler.

While at the FBI, my main focus was the best interest of the U.S. Govt. I didn't care whose equipment we used, provided it was the best. Additionally, if newer, better equipment came along, we would have switched.

Most of what we used was industrial grade (Model 55 and 57 screens, Model 35 BNC, 82, 83 and 85 computers) but we did make extensive use of the Model 35P when shooting at remote locations or outdoors. We also used them for impact velocity measurements downrange.

There was a time when the Model 35P was discontinued. We had 4 or 5 of them and I was concerned about what we would do when they were no longer functional. One problem I found with them was their propensity to jump in front of bullets when trying to measure velocity at longer ranges. I distinctly remember measuring impact velocities of M855 projectiles at approximately 300 yards, launched from a rack-grade M4. Memory is that 15" groups were normal. Not conducive to lifespan of downrange equipment. Yes, we used steel shields but I can still say we shot a few (or more) chronograph parts. Though we were sticklers about not wasting money, testing has costs. If a $600 chronograph is damaged while conducting a $54 Million ammunition procurement, it is just considered a cost of doing business.

I set out on a quest to find a replacement for the 35P. We purchased a few different models. The most promising model had a rail that folded for transport. I set it up in front of an M35P and shot some .308 thru both sets of screens. There was 50 or 60 fps difference. Even though the M35P proof values were very small, out came a tape measure and the Oehler screens were spot on at 4'. The new chronograph was only able to have a 2' spacing and, due to the flexing of the rail, it actually measured 24 1/8".

I contacted the manufacturer and was getting nowhere. He spent a lot of time explaining how chronographs work. He asked for a photo of the setup so I added another set of screens (Model 57 this time) and re-shot the test and sent him a photo showing the M35P agreeing with the M35 BNC (57 screens). However, his chronograph still showed 50-60 fps off. I explained what I thought the problem was and he sent me a new rail. The new rail was exactly the same as the old one. We solved the issue by securing the rail with a piece of angle aluminum. Thereafter the chronograph worked as well as I'd expect any light screen chrono with a 2' spacing to work. Still, it did not have the "Proof" screen so trusting any numbers would require TWO of them to check for agreement.

Yes, we were relieved when Oehler brought the M35P back into production.

After retiring, I built a test range and purchased two of the M35P chronographs (can use one near muzzle and one downrange...but only as far as you are willing to risk the equipment). Yes, I also purchased replacement screens/diffusers (experience speaking!).

Additionally, I've been fortunate in Dr. Oehler allowing me to follow along and assist with his creation of the System '88 and System '89. I've used the System '88 a good bit and am looking forward to the System '89.

It has long been understood that velocity can be expected to be unique to particular systems. It is about time that the community understand and recognize that drag (BC) should also be expected to be unique to particular systems. In other words:

"You don't get your velocity off the box of ammunition, why would you get your BC out of the bullet catalog?"

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