Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats A new 400 Whelen is Born

A magnificent project. Where would I find the Petrov design reamers and gauges necessary for a similar project? Michael and I spoke by computer before his illness was discovered. I consider it a personal loss as well as a general one for the loonies. Rusty

I'm not sure who ended up with Michael's reamer. You might post the question over on the Double Gun forum. He was very active over there. The gentleman who barreled mine has one but he doesn't take in much work, if any. I know there must be several out there and you might check with one of the reamer rental outfits. I'd be shocked if they didn't have one.

I sure miss Mike. I really enjoyed going to see him in Anchorage. I wish I had met him when we first moved to Alaska and had more time with him. That applies to all who knew him I'm sure. He was certainly generous with his time and knowledge. I have a picture on myself that he took in his gun room holding a rifle of his. It was one I recognized from the Monty Kennedy book, "Checkering and Carving of Gunstocks." It was the Alvin Linden rifle on page 13. I treasure the picture. I wish I had gotten one of him.

PM me. The guy who has his rifle and reamer loaned it to me. I will ask Dennis if it is OK to put you in contact.

Here is the discourse on the pattern stock (basic dimensions and concept)

A new 400 Whelen is Born_The pattern- stock

As described in the post on sights, stock design was complicated by the dual sight system. While standard dimensions exist for most stock profiles, such was not the case here. The beginning pattern stock was from Satterlee’s English stalking rifle. I began hacking from there. I am 5’ 10” about 190#, of average build.

https://imgur.com/Atf7Fz1

Below is the description of the dimensional changes made to the pattern to make it fit me and my needs.

Length of pull – 13-1/4” measured from the center of the trigger to the middle of the butt plate. This seems too short, but it isn’t. This length allows the bolt to cycle with the cocking piece in place and perfectly aligns with the scope. It is bang-on ideal for the iron sights and very good for the scope.

Drop – I raised the heel nearly ½” with automobile bondo to .845”. Drop at comb is unchanged @ .725”. I measured drop by wrapping masking tape around a brass rod, put it in the bore from the breech end. The heel is also thickened at the top to accommodate the extra area of the skeleton butt plate I intend to install. (See Stock)

Cast- There is no cast at the comb or heel. However, the toe is “out” 5/16” from the bottom of the pistol grip.

Pitch – This is a critical and often misunderstood dimension. Pitch is the angle between the bore and the flat of the butt plate. (On shotguns the top of the rib is used.). 90 degrees is neutral pitch.

It took a lot of trial and error to get this right. I burned 40 shots, testing the recoil effect of pitch. The goal was to direct recoil straight back, with as little muzzle deflection as possible. This rifle has some power. The recoil sensation is a strong push, a lot like a 3” 12 gas shotgun or a 375 H&H rifle. It does not kick “fast” like a 300 or 338 mag.

As delivered, the flat of the butt was 91degrees to the bore axis. Recoil sensation was strong against the cheek with quite a bit of muzzle rise. When I added bondo to the heel for the iron sights, the stock began rising more and really beat up my cheek. I queried a couple of experts for help.

Melvin Forbes, Joel Shafer, and David Wesbrook recommended negative pitch on heavy rifles. Test shooting showed -3.5 degrees pitch to be ideal. The measured angle between the bore and the butt plate is now 86.5 degrees. I tested as far as 85 degrees (5 degrees negative pitch). At 85 the muzzle wanted to recoil down into the palm of the hand. -3.5 degrees directs recoil straight back. Correcting the pitch is also why the 13-1/4” LOP works as well as it does.

Deflection- The butt has about 2 degrees of deflection. The cheek piece side of the butt is a hair shorter than the bolt side to fit my shoulder pocket and deltoid muscle.

Tang – I decided to reshape the tang of the action because putting the slot in the wood behind the tag just bugs me. (Thank you David Wesbrook.) This little change lowers the pistol grip ¼”, and completely reshapes the arch from the rear of the of action into the pistol grip in a nice elegant curve.

Comb – The comb was moved back at least ¾”+. I did not plan on using a comb notch. I just don’t like the look. But I have big hands, with a fat thumb, so I had to do something. I relieved the right side to accept the fat of my right thumb. I didn’t realize it at the time, but the fat-thumb-flute came in exactly at 11 degrees to the bore, just like a 1911 pistol. Huh. The shorter comb helps my thumb roll over the top. There is also slight swell in right side of the pistol grip.

There are 6 concave flutes; 4 at the left/right/top/bottom of the pistol grip and 2 at the fore end.

Fore end - I lengthened the fore end by about 2” to make it look more natural with the placement of the barrel swivel. The fore end transitions from the flutes into an oval, rounding into a rather streamlined forward end, like an English sporting rifle. I don’t care for contrasting fore end caps, so the extra piece is for length only.

The bolt cut out with bondo. It and the ejection port will be cut last in the good stock before final finishing. This little secret avoids chipping and rounding of edges around these areas.

The biggest take away from designing the pattern stock what I learned about pitch. Adjusting the pitch 4 degrees dramatically changed the handling of the rifle. Below is a picture of the finished pattern stock.

https://imgur.com/r8Ekpdw

I will describe the final shaping and fitting of the good-stock in the next section.

So is the negative pitch with the bottom of the butt plate towards the muzzle or away from it? Just trying to visualize what the change accomplishes.

The problem is the nomenclature used to describe pitch , isn't it? I have read about pitch from other sources. The terms I read about were up/down, more/less, higher/lower, etc. Most of them seemed to depict the sight plain of a shotgun. Whatever, they depicted, I found them confusing because none of them told me about the relationship to the bore or sighting plain to the butt. Also, the results were dependent on the length of the barrels. Joel Shafer helped me figure out this method, which seems clearer in my mind.

What I am trying to say in the post is the toe dimension, to the middle of the trigger, is shorter than the heel dimension, to the middle of the trigger. The numbers don't matter because they would change with the LOP. What does matter is the angle. Here is how I measure the angle

Pull the bolt out of the gun. Wrap some tape around a long rod, so it is tight in whatever bore you have. I used a brass tube because it is rigid, not subject to warping like a dowel. Run the wrapped rod into the bore from the breech end. Get a protractor. Place it flat along the butt plate, top to bottom. Now adjust the angle of the protractor so it aligns with the line of the tube. If the angle is 90 degrees the pitch is neutral. If < than 90, negative, and > 90 positive.

If you need more, PM your phone number to me and we can chat.

The pitch controls the muzzle rise/fall. i.e. whether the recoil come straight back or causes the muzzle to rise/fall.

Your pics Wheelerdan.

A new 400 Whelen is Born_Skeleton Grip and Butt Plate

Along with the dream about the ovate barrel, skeleton butt plates and grip caps just scream classic to me. The late Oscar Gaddy, lived near me and shared his love for Damascus steel with me. So, this rifle just had to have a skeleton butt plate and grip cap, made out of Damascus steel.

The sequence of this build is important. Satterlee had rough carved the good-wood out of an exhibition piece of black walnut and returned same to me. Before I could begin final shaping the stock, the butt and grip caps had to be installed. These parts define the final dimensions and the wood-to-metal fit in these critical areas.

I had only seen pictures of one example of a Damascus skeleton butt plate and not grip caps. Efforts to get parts from that source did not pan out. What to do?

I obtained sketches of a regular skeleton grip/butt from a favorite catalog. Eventually I found a Damascus producer who agreed to cut the profiles for me. This Good Samaritan was Lacey Smith from Alabama Damascus Steel. The price was very reasonable and the wait was very long. The wait was caused by the plasma cutter, not the steel. The steel is produced daily. I am indebted to Lacey for making this possible.

BTW, the steel was delivered to me flat. I had to make a form to bend the radius for “beak” of the butt plate.

salesalabamadamascussteel.com

I was always put off by the price professional stockmakers charge to install skeleton parts on a stock. The butt can cost $1000 and the grip $350, not including the metal parts.

I was wrong! I am put off no more.

I have at least 10-12 hours in the grip and conservatively 40 hours inletting the butt. Granted, this is my first attempt, so I am very slow. The job came out very well. I only have 1 inletting “ouch” to fix. Even if the pros only charge a modest $25/hr, they are not making a loving inletting skeleton parts. The job is a certifiable PIA.

Grip cap – This is straight forward. I used a small stone in my Sears drill press to cut a 5 degree draft on the inside of bottom of the grip cap and butt plates. The draft allows the work to tighten as it goes into the wood. I used a SHARP pencil to scribe the line, and chisels to insize the first cuts. In the end, a Dremel with a depth gauge proved the most efficient method to remove bulk wood. Candle soot was used to ID where small amounts of material need to be removed. https://imgur.com/hnCIXQf

Butt plate – The basic process was the same as the grip, but the obstacles much more complex I could not get my head around how to inlet the radius and beak (inlet down) while also inletting for the butt-skeleton (forward). First, I make a cardboard of the inside of the butt plate. The cardboard doll helped locate the inletting for the nose. https://imgur.com/TL915bC

I had a piece of wood cut from the original buttstock, so I inlet the butt part of the plate into it. This got me the “inside-wood” of the skeleton. https://imgur.com/rZXFEZn https://imgur.com/ZYlFhRs

I cut this piece to about ½” thick, glued it onto the butt of the stock. From this point forward, I only had to inlet the radius and nose-over deep enough to cover the seam where the wood was glued to the butt. In affect, the skeleton butt plate lies on top of the butt and is located vertically by the skeleton inlet. This was a trial and error exercise using chisels, the Dremel, and candle soot.

A secret I learned somewhere was to tap the holes for any standard sized machine screw. This provides a method to remove the metal from the wood, without introducing any unwanted pry marks into the walnut. The final mounting screw heads will cover the thread the tap has cut, but are small enough to pass into the wood. https://imgur.com/TvVvQCh

There is some final finish work to complete to make the fit even more perfect. But the job is good enough that I can final shape the stock.

As of now, my story is caught up to the work. I have to final shape the stock before the next installment can be posted.

Tom Jackson is nearly done with mine. I went with an M70 and the barrel profile he cuts from Douglas blanks. I believe he calls it a Duke of Marlborough. 410 bore, Petrov dimension chamber. Im using a factory Win laminated stock that came with the rifle (Classic 25-06). Slightly regret not using a 1903, but the M70 just made more sense. I should have the gun back by the end of the month, I'll be going with CH4D dies like Mart, same dies Tom uses and they woek great with his personal 400 with the same reamer

Thinking of a 375 or 400 for my next. My current is a 35 AI on a SC M70 Featherweight. Looking forward to more updates.

So you wanted muzzle rise instead of straight back...correct?

No, sir. I want the recoil to come straight back. A rising muzzle causes the comb to nail my cheek. 3.5 degrees negative directs the recoil straight back .

Now I understand. I was thinking the slope of the recoil pad would cause it to rise up the shoulder and let the muzzle rise, but now that I think about it, it puts more of the butt plate in contact with the shoulder, eliminating the muzzle rise.

A new 400 Whelen is Born_Shaped stock

The delay in posting this installment is caused by actual work finalizing the stock.

These pix show the stock in it finished form. I took a couple of shots of the skeleton butt and pistol grips and the action installed sans the bolt and floor plate. The first coat of sealer made the grain really pop.

https://imgur.com/4Sv8QxM
https://imgur.com/7DBmhKk

The details of the stock design are in an earlier post.

https://imgur.com/nMzfSBm


Then next pix are taken during the actual finishing. The grain is raised beginning with 220 paper, through 400. At 400 Permelyn sealer is slopped on the stock as much as the stock will absorb. After each coat the sealer is sanded back to the original wood, but not into the wood. After the sealing, Permelyn is again with Rottenstone. It is applied in a slurry to fill the pores which still need it. This stock has very open pores, so it took three coats. Each time the Permelyn/rottenstone is sanded back to the wood using progressively finer paper. Now we are at 600 grit. The stock is getting more “polished” than sanded. The final finish is to be 100% pure Tung oil. The oil is applied with a t-shirt with some cotton balled inside. The pix shows the look after the 1st coat. Not sure how many coats will be required.

The above process seals the wood from moisture pretty well, makes a hard surface to support fine checkering, and concludes with a real hand rubbed oil finish.

https://imgur.com/UtZpVnB
https://imgur.com/wjRtxua
https://imgur.com/4YQxXjc
https://imgur.com/bBCJF4M


Last, here are some pix of the stocking/checkering cradle I use. It was designed and produced by Joel Shafer, the master checkering guru. It is handy because the stock can be turned in any direction. The use of a Winton Power Arm allows the rail to be positioned at any angle and or reversed. I suspend the work between the centers by affixing scrap pieces through the stock screw holes. Each stock requires a little bit different mounting. The cradle is the best means I have found to work on a stock without and y fear of scuffing, finger prints, tool marks, etc. I highly recommend it.

https://imgur.com/2rm47Ss
https://imgur.com/74lG4ni
https://imgur.com/bCZhcpH

That's a beautiful piece of wood!!


Mike

Since I just about have the 400 Whelen done, I just posted my 35 Whelen in the classified. Also posted a very neat M94 saddle ring carbine and a BSA bolt rifle. All very nice pieces.

So, if I read this correctly Dan, with the bore flat or level to the ground, the top of the recoil pad is closer to the muzzle than the bottom?

No, the other way around.
Picture a right angle, 90 degrees between the bore of the rifle and the flat of the butt plate. Now reduce the angle to 86.5 degrees (inside the angle). The toe-to-trigger is shorter than the heel-to-trigger. This little adjustment dramatically helps with recoil.

A new 400 Whelen is born_fit -function test

I have decided to make this the last entry for this post, as the construction, function-test phase of the rifle is complete. There are still things to do, but I will post them separately.

As for status, the stock and the metal are married together. The stock is shaped, and is finished with 100% Tung oil. 100% Tung oil is a decidedly different product than some of the alleged “Tung oil” products sold at big box stores. Those have very little TO in them. I bought this TO at a Woodcraft store. I like how Tung oil displays the grain. Also it hardens in a way Linseed does not. It dries hard (eventually), with an understated satiny finish.

The metal is polished to a 320 grit. It is currently a bit dirty from the stock construction and will need some tweaking before bluing.

Nest steps will be to engrave the metal and to checker the stock and rust blue the metal. Not sure if I will checker the stock or have it done. I definitely will have somebody else do the engraving because I have seen my work. I do my own rust bluing just because I love watching the process happen before my eyes.

https://imgur.com/Jeu4CKq
https://imgur.com/QYaqcau
https://imgur.com/Ms2il4Q
https://imgur.com/ukbRtRL

To close out this post, I final fit the metal to the wood. This required some minor fitting of the floor plate, regulating the screws, and so forth. I loaded up some ammo and took her to the range. I will do a separate complete post on ammo for the 400, but for the basic function test, this is what happened.

I shot cast bullets which were made from an LBT mold, made for this rifle. They weigh 325 grains, are of spire point design with a gas check. They are sized .412 and are tight fit in the throat. I loaded them so the ogive engages the rifling, but with mild loads, so as not to worry about pressure. I took two different loads to the range.

The first load contained 20 grains of Trail Boss. This fills the case just short of the base of the bullet. The second load was 45 grains of IMR 3031 with a tuft of Dacron on top. The tests were done with the 3X Big Bore Leupold scope mounted. When I got to the range, I pulled the scope out of the box and mounted it on the receiver bridges.

The Trail boss loads chronographed 1275, 1278, 1276 fps. Very consistent for speed, but they grouped into about 3,” high and right of the center hold. There was no recoil. My impression was these loads were not as accurate as I expected, but I also have a hunch the shooter was not shooting well. I will try the Trail Boss again. The rifle has a 1:18 twist. That might be a factor @ 1300 FPS. We’ll see in the next evolution.

The second load was nothing short of exceptional. After the TB results, I deliberately concentrated on shooting my best. 45 grains of 3031 chronographed 1861, 1874, 1875 fps, respectively. Recoil was mild, but more than the TB loads. Most importantly, the first three shots went into a cloveleaf 1” from the center hold. I could just cover them with a nickel. I stopped after the first 3 shots in case more shooting ruined the group by pilot error. This was enough to prove out the function of the rifle.

https://imgur.com/LW2zWmd
https://imgur.com/Jpd1AoN


It is worth noting that these respective loads are about ½ and 2/3 of full speed loads. Full power with this bullet is 2500 FPS+-. And, yes, this bullet can be driven at 2500 FPS without leading. But slow is a lot more fun for practice, more cost effective, is extremely accurate, and is quite potent.

It is important to emphasize that I took the rifle to the range, mounted the quick detachable scope at the range, and shot the group in the picture with load #2. This says something about the action, barrel, and mold makers craftsmanship. I have not tried these loads with the cocking piece sight. I will report on those results in the ammo post.

Thank you for following this project. I appreciate the many comments I have received. Please look for the posts on ammo for the 400 Whelen, and rust bluing of the rifle.