Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 35 Whelen with modern powder and bullets...?

So I ran across the "Speer 250 at 2700" thread...which leads me to wonder what velocities are realistic/safe with the other .358" bullet weights if the Whelen is loaded to bolt gun pressures.

I've had trouble finding much "official" +P load data, what are y'all getting in the real world? Links to published data would be good too...

I'd like to see numbers for 180, 200, and 225 grain bullet weights... If you post chrono data, please also add the barrel length used.

I'm thinking I may have to "rescue" a Model 70 in .270 by having it rebored to 35 Whelen! ;-)

I have a 24" barreled 35 Whelen that was just that, a rusted bore pre-64 270 Winchester that JES done, I haven't got all my 2600 fps 250gr loads shot up yet, but when I do, I'm going to build a load with Alliant Power Pro 2000 powder for 2700 fps with 250gr Partitions.

What a damn hammer that will be.

It sounds like you're happy with JES' work?

I like the idea of having 250 grainers as an option, but I think I'll be good with either 200 or 225 for anything I'll be doing for a while. The 200 TTSX, 200 Accubond, 225 Accubond, and 225 Sierra all look pretty interesting!

The 180s might be fun for whitetails in the woods...

You might try Speer data for 220 gr bullets since they don’t make a 225 gr .358 bullet. I get a chronographed avg MV of 2,723 fps out of a 22” 1:16 twist barrel using less than a max listed charge of CFE 223 with 225 gr Partitions. Very accurate load and no signs of pressure in my rifle. All .270 Winchester’s should be rebored!

Yes Sir I do, I bought a crap load of MidwayUSA factory seconds that I'm sure are 250gr hornadys, after the rebore from JES, a big charge of RL-15 in new Hornady brass lit with CCI-250's sent them at max mag box length of 3.340 inch a bit over 2600 fps and three round groups well under an inch.

I like to have one load for all game per rifle, that way any gun I grab will easily take game hunted that day with ease, trajectory is math and easily repeated, a 250gr 35 cal bullet will kill small deer as easy as it will a 700lb bull elk at 300 yards.

I might add that Federal Premium 225 gr TBBC factory loads are never a bad option for hunting.

My pet load for the .35 Whelen is 60.4 gr. of R15, Remington brass,, Winchester WLR primer and the 225 gr. Barnes TSX. Velocity is 2710 FPS with sub MOA accuracy and puts elk down hard. Even the ones not dead one the first hit could not get up to try and get away. Rifle is a custom Mauser with 24" barrel, 1 in 14" twist. I have to admit that same load will lock up the bolt on my Remington M700 Classic. I also have a Ruger M77 Tanger but it has a headspacing problem so only use it for cast bullet shooting where the bullet if jammed into the rifling. I have 225 gr. Accubonds and Partitions but just haven't gotten around to trying them since the results with the TSX were so good. I believe I'd tackle anything in most of the world with that TSX load and not look back. I figure a load that will pass through an elk from exhaust pie to appetite should work quite well.
Paul B.

I took my 35 Whelen to Alaska for Caribou.
I knew there was a chance to be close to Brown Bear so I used 225 gr bullet at 2680 fps.
From a 22 inch barrel. Nosler Partition and IMR 4320.
Varget works just as well. My Remington Classic 700 seems to group 225 gr bullets the best.
This will be my last rifle.
whelennut

2502700 whelen would be a absolute hammer!!

Back in the 80s JDJ told me that IMR 4320 was THE powder for the Whelen. I used it with 200 HSP for 2800 + in a 22" Rem 760 I had rechambered.

Looks like 4320 still ain't too shabby.


Jerry

I got 2750fps/250 partition from a 22" 1/16 twist Mod 700 classic, BUT it was with the 35 Whelen Ackley over 61gr R15 and a Fed 215M primer. I'm sure in a 24 inch standard Whelen and the right powder that 2700 "could be reached", no way to know w/o trying it. These newer powders are amazing. OTOH, I got 2550 with the 250X behind 53.5gr of the old AA2015br and a BR2 primer ( Rem cases fireformed in the WAI) It was just "awesome" to see how Plains Game reacted to being hit with that load. Not sure what a partition at 2700 could do that a 225 Barnes couldn't do at 2700-2800 better!? At any rate, any Whelen is a fine heavy game rifle, runs right on the heels of the 338 Win Mag.

I have near 3 decades of experience with the Whelen, with several dozen successful hunts, it has been a hammer, without fail, 2500fps. As of last year, my go to load is anear case full of PP2000MR under a 250 gr Partiton. While I did not feel a need for more velocity, the accuracy of the package could not be ignored. It just keeps getting better.
Overkill is under rated.

I have been a .35 Whelen loader for more than 25 years, with a 225 gr. Sierra Game King or Nosler Ballistic Tip IMR 4064 gives best accuracy in my Randall Redman rebored pre'64 M/70. With 200 gr. Hornady Interlok RN IMR 3031 gives best accuracy, I used this load to harvest
a KY whitetail last season and couldn't be happier with the performance, it will be my go to load from now on.

I should have added, that 200 H S P is also a HAMMER on WT. I've seen them knocked sideways upon impact.
One buck stiffened up like an ironing board (if anyone remembers what that is). He stood more erect, all 4 legs straight as boards and he took a couple stiff legged steps......TIPPED over sideways.

I've also SEEN deer have MORE visible reaction to being hit with magnums, esp 300 WM, than lesser cartridges including 270 W.


Jerry

With what you all are claiming with 35 Whelen I wonder what my 358 NM will do with the new pwdrs. as I have not got it going yet!! Cheers NC

You are the first guy I have heard of using PP 2000 MR, have you had a chance to run it over a chronograph yet? I would love to try some of the new powders with some 225's, have a great 200 gr load but could do some experimenting with the 225's to see what happens.

I had a 358 NM for a while too and it is a hammer, with newer powders it's got to still be a good 200 + fps faster than the Whelen!

I haven’t chrono’ed them yet but 200AB’s with 57gr of IMR-4985 and 210 match primers shot really well for me. I’m shooting them out of a 28’’ TC Pro Hunter so I’m thinking the velocity should be around 2750-2800fps.

Technology is great.... 👍

for sure, my first custom was a whelen 25 years ago, I've killed alotta critters with the chambering.... I'm a fan...

Good grief I just realized I had my first Whelen back almost 30 years ago when I was about 20 years old. It was a Remington 7600 that I wish I still had lol. Still remember those awesome looking 250 gr RN factory loads they had, I think they used the Hornady RN for those.

Ya tough to beat a whelen for most hunting conditions, especially in B.C.....

Yep it is my "big gun" now. Had a 375 Ruger for a while too and could see no difference in killing power.

I don't doubt it, I'd happily pack my whelen anywhere for any critter, and never feel like I needed "more"...

Use an appropriate bullet and you will never be disappointed.
Been a tough winter, and I've been lazy, so have not put any over the chronograph. Maybe when spring comes along. I don't seem to have all the curiosity I one had, the accuracy and clean burn being satisfying, but as I said, I'm getting pretty lazy.
I will note that I used up near 2# of the PP200MR getting "my" load developed and fine tuned and to establish confidence in repeatable reliability. Hope this makes sense.

When I first got my Whelen more than 25 yrs. ago I developed a load for it, lots of time at the reloading bench and at the range. The result of that load development found that 225 gr. bullets and IMR 4064 was the combination that my rifle liked best. Fast forward to last year, I had done a lot of reading and research and decided to do another round of load development and testing. I found that 225 gr. bullets and IMR 4064 were still the combination that produced the best accuracy. In the process I discovered an old Ken Waters Pet Load that consisted of Hornady 200 gr. RN over IMR 3031, this load produced three shot cloverleaf groups at 100 yds. consistently. This became my new whitetail hunting load, it proved to be an excellent performer producing a perfectly mushroomed bullet that retained 66% of its original weight. In my time with the Whelen I have never found a combination that would not shoot well, cast bullets, pistol bullets or jacketed bullets it shoots them all.

I've been loading for my Whelen for twenty years. Back when I first started hand loading, in the mid-90s, I shot up hundreds of $s worth of bullets and powder having a great time experimenting. After I shot out the second barrel of a rifle, I went to using handholds that gave me the best accuracy, decent velocity, and most importantly, good temperature stability. Most of my rifle hunting takes place in the late seasons and I quickly saw POI changes with my original Whelen favorite powder, Re 15. That was also about the time most loads for Re 15 suddenly decreased in all manuals. Brian Pierce convince me to try H4895 with my 250 grain Partitions and I was very pleased with the result. I haven't had any interest to get any better than my old school load.

My current process when starting handloading for a new to me rifle is to find a couple of top loads between a few manuals, load up a couple, shoot until I'm happy, and go hunting. My load development is now typically less than 20 bullets per rifle. Gives me lots of time to master the rifle from all field positions and to shoot better. Not to mention the time and cost saving! Back in the mid-90s, bullets were cheap, not so much now.

I shot several elk, both bulls and cows, using the Re 15 loads with the 250 grain Hornady SP. The first couple or so went down with no problem. Then the new lots of Hornady bullet in about 2006 were noticeably different in external construction with much less exposed lead at the tip. The next couple of elk shot with the new bullets took several shots to put down for good. Tracing the wound channels clearly indicated that the newer bullets were not expanding to any appreciable degree. I switched to the 250 grain Partition and everything works fine.

Enjoy.

I've used 250 gr. bullets for 90% of my hunts with a Whelen, Shot a bunch of elk, and a few moose and caribou with them. 2500 FPS is fast enough for me, and I get that speed with RL 15 and formerly used IMR4064. I really like the discontinued Speer Grand slams but have had very constant results even with the standard Speer and with Hornady interlocks.

I think we must ask ourselves how we are to achieve 338 WM ballistics (250 gr. bullet @ 2700 fps) with a cartridge based on a 30-06, which of course has a smaller capacity than the 338 WM. Answer: By loading the Whelen to excessive pressures. My suggestion is to keep it real with 250 gr. velocities no more than 2500 fps.

Back in the '90's an old gunsmith buddy and I built a 35 Whelen that was to be my elk rifle. He was a crotchety, whiskey drinking old bastard, but new how to make a rifle shoot. His forte' was building super accurate silhouette rifles, and many of his clients were wealthy shooters residing in Meh-hee-ko. I based my Whelen on a VZ24 action and he installed a 24" Douglas Premium barrel with a 1-12" twist. Loaded with Varget the rifle was/is extremely accurate. My first six or seven test loads consisted of Varget and 225 gr. Nosler Partitions, and the largest group was 1 1/4". I shot a nice 6x6 NM bull with that load. I switched to 225 gr. TSX's and things got even better-



While this load was certainly and exception, it was rare for any load with the TSX to group over 3/4". My old dad used my rifle to finish off a 6x6 he'd wounded with his 338-06. It was almost dark and the bull was ambling straight away probably 100 yds. or so distance. Dad hit him squarely in the tater hole/anus with a TSX, the bull took a few more steps and flopped over, dead. The bullet traveled from the anus to the front of the right shoulder, under the skin, where we found it when skinning the bull-





That's a 71 year old man hunting at 11,000+ ft.

A couple of seasons later I shot a bull with the same rifle and load at a lasered 360 yds. distance. I was shooting downhill and the bullet entered high in the right shoulder and travelled up into the neck where it exited. Another season or two another bull was shot at maybe 50 yds.

Dad has a 700 Classic in 35 Whelen. These rifles are amazingly light, but also beat the soup out of the shooter. But the light weight makes them handy for mountain hunting. I worked up a load for Dad with a 250 gr. Speer SP and stopped when I reached 2500 fps. I shot exactly three groups-



Dad carried the rifle and shot a bull at 44 yds. When I went to look for the bull who'd run at the shot, it looked like someone had a 5/8" garden hose squirting a steam of blood on the ground. The bullet all but disintegrated and made an enormous mess.

The entrance hole from the inside-






So there's my take on the Whelen- Varget or Re-15, take your pick, and a 225 gr. TSX.

35WN

...and a happy 74 year old man, still hunting at 11,000 ft.!



35WN

SALUTE to you at 74 and able to hunt in the Mtns ! !

Congrats.

Jerry

Hey great pictures much appreciated. Amazing penetration from that 225 gr TSX, I shot a moose with them at close range and was impressed.

I'll mention your comment on a 250 gr @ 2700 fps and that no one is likely to try with the classic 35 Whelen powders but it is possible now with brand new powders previously not available. In my lightweight rifle I know I sure don't want extra speed lol. 200-225's do pretty much everything I need these days. FYI a bullet that I really like as well that will perform just as good or better than the 250 gr Speer is the 200 gr TTSX, you might consider them for your dad's rifle.

While I don’t doubt some of the velocities quoted, most tested data would lead me to think that any 250 grain load velocity above 2,600 fps or so is venturing into over pressures. Just because there is no sticky bolt lift, flattened primers, etc. doesn’t mean high pressures do not exist. I think to exhibit classic mechanical overpressure signs the load is probably in excess of 70,000 psi. I don’t recall any published data for 250 gr bullets exceeding 2,600 for a 22” barrel. Nosler shows a few loads above that but with a 26” test barrel.

Again yes Bubba is capable of overloading anything. Do you really think Speer doesn't know what they are doing and are exceeding normal chamber pressures? That possibility would be next to zero in my opinion. They list Power Pro 2000 MR as reaching 2709 fps, CFE 223 reaching 2664 fps and Power Pro Varmint getting 2617 fps all from an unspecified barrel length which I assume is going to be 26" since that seems normal these days.

No one doubt's a new powder like RL 26 in the 270 or 280 Rem for example reaching a speeds lot higher safely than other powders available previously. It looks like they found a couple of great new powders that work very well in the Whelen and I bet similar sized rounds.

I worked up a load with CFE223 that gets 2,723 avg fps with a 225 gr Partition at less powder than Speer data lists as max for 220 gr. And that is from a 22” 1:16 barrel M700. When test barrel length is not listed, I have my doubts. Take 100 fps off their data and that is realistic for most rifles. Who has a 26” barrel .35 Whelen anyway? JB has a good chapter on the .35 Whelen in Gun Gack #1. Happy Trails

Just a FYI, Speer manual #15 says test barrel length of 24" with 1 in 16" twist. Power pro 2000-MR getting 2709 fps with their 250gr bullet.

Lee

I have some CFE and may do some load development with it but top loads using 3031 make my Mauser buck plenty and I get just under 2500 fps out of it's 19 inch barrel with the 250 gr. Speer or Hornady. I am using the same brass I formed from Federal 30-06 cases all 40 of them back in 1987. Maybe the load is hot but it is the max load from an early Speer manual and it shoots far better than expected. Recoil is such that I can feel it depress the recoil pad. I don't really need 2700 fps out of a 250 grain bullet myself.

Looks like some good times in the woods.

Congratulations!

The 35 W. Is one of those great rounds, that will always be great. (per me)

Polecat, thanks for that. I have not tried PP-2000-MR and probably won’t since I have several tubs of CFE223 around and it gives me the speed and accuracy I was looking for with a 225 gr Partition. Happy Trails

I get all the speed and accuracy I need for hunting whitetails with moderate loads of IMR 3031 and IMR 4064. Ya don't need to hot rod the Whelen in order for it to be effective in my experience.

Great pic! Hope I can say that someday...

I guess it would depend on what and where one was hunting. I only hunt elk anymore and I've had to take shots as far as 350 yards. The 225 gr. Barnes TSX does a right nice job at 2710 at the muzzle. I'll admit that might be a bit much for deer but I'll bet meat damage would be small, the bullet exiting and the deer layig down and saying, "You've killed me."

As a matter if fact, that 225 gr. TSX cost me on of the nicest Mule Deer bucks I've ever seen. I could have shot him easily enough but there were a bunch of does and smaller deer behind him. If I'd have taken the shot I'd have killed him and probably killed or wounded two or three more in the process. I never did get a deer that year.
Paul B.

I'm building an AI version on a 24" barreled commercial Maueser FN. Nosler and Hodgon both list Varget and 8208 as best group or best speed for most bullets, esp 225 and lighter.

A 225TTSX at 2750-2800+ would be all I could hope for or stand!
2600+ any load, with good accuracy, would be enough.

Thanks all for the various thoughts on the 35 Whelen and modern loads. One thing that's undoubtedly true about the Whelen is that it's one of the most versatile rounds in terms of available loads. Everything from cast pistol bullet plinking loads, to reduced recoil/power loads with light bullets, to "traditional" SAAMI loads on the lighter side, to the modern +P loads that sometimes exceed four thousand foot-pounds of energy are available.

This post is mainly about a few representative bullets I personally find interesting. There are several more that look good for +P applications but this is mainly to lay out a case for the Whelen as a general-purpose hunting round rather than dismissing it when ranges open up a bit. I did leave out the 250 gr. Partition because ballistically it's very similar to the Speer 250.

I should mention that I'd never run across the Hawk bullets before, and they look intriguing - if fairly expensive. The deal of the century has to be the Speer 250s at under $17 per 50. In the test data I found (the last table in the post) it's a standout, and is apparently well vetted in terms of retaining weight and expanding reliably. Speer even rates it as a "dangerous game" bullet.

All that said, the 265 grain Hawk spitzer looks like a potential star. I'd love to see some real world results from that one... One thing that could be better is that Hawk provides no BC values so I just made some up (heh)...if anyone knows of any based on real data, please speak up.

Despite the allure of the heavier bullets, once I have my shiny new Whelen in hand, I think I'll start with the 200 TTSX for +P development. It seems as though it'll do anything I need, perhaps unless I intentionally target dangerous game. Truthfully I'd feel adequately armed with that bullet even in brown bear territory (see test data below). Is anyone here running it at 2900 FPS or over out of a regular 35 Whelen?

The main point is really ballistic performance out to 400 yards. That's the important thing for the vast majority of hunters. If you regularly need to reach out beyond 400 yards for big game, the 35 Whelen isn't your best choice. The 500 and 600 yard data is included mainly for amusement purposes. All ballistic data was generated using the Ballistic app for iOS.

(Sidebar: BBCODE is supposed to support tables, but they don't seem to work here...could that please be fixed? I'm using the "code" tag instead to get a fixed size font, but it's a lot uglier and more painful to work with.)

35 Whelen Trajectories:


35 Whelen Energies:


I found some .358 bullet test data at https://www.marlinowners.com/forum/...-tests-focus-30-cal-190-hawk-35-rem.html, preserved here for posterity.

Test setup: One inch of "soaked magazines", 1/2" fiber board (to simulate "tough bone"), and then many inches of "soaked magazines". I added the columns for percent expansion and percent retained weight . Notes here are from the original post. Velocity in FPS, sizes in inches, weights in grains.

.358 bullet test data, mainly at 35 Remington velocities:

Note that this data didn't include any Nosler bullets, or the heavier Hawk bullets. I'd sure like to see similar tests run with full bore Whelen loads and a good selection of current bullets.

I have some takeaways from this:

• The 35 Whelen is a fine all-around big game cartridge as long as you don't mind some stout recoil - and even that is optional depending on how you load it.
• Some 35 Whelen +P loads are flat shooting enough to keep up with the 30-06 out to 400+ yards. That's certainly not how most folk think about the 35 Whelen.
• With suitable bullets loads can be developed that will do for any dangerous game that might fall victim to the 9.3x62 or other similar rounds.

What say the gun writers? <-- Test to see if anyone reads this far...haha.

(edited for a little better wording here and there...)

What is all this about Whelen +P loads? +P is a SAAMI standard for certain cartridges, and does not exist for the Whelen. Whelen loads are either full power, too hot, or something less.

Well SAAMI standard for the .35 Whelen is a bit on the puny side thanks to Remington screwing up once more. Those of us who do load the Whelen for top performance should be able to call them Plus P or whatever the hell else they want. If my 225 gr. TSX load at 2710 FPS MV isn't a plus P load, what else would I call it? It kills elk very dead, is safe in my rifle so I guess I'll just consider it a Plul P load.
Paul B.

If that's what makes you happy, sure. I would call it a full power load, same as what I use.

I prefer calling them '65k psi' loads. The potential to knock on the door of 2700fps with 250gr has been there as long as W760 has existed, and a modern rifle has worn a 24" barrel.
Cheers...
Con

2,840 fps with said bullet in my 22" Whelen. IMR-3031 - a couple grains over book max (57.5) I'd be curious what QuickLoad says about that one. I tried one of the Vunderpowders - CFE 223 - and could get anywhere near published velocities.

I tried CFE223 under 225's in an Improved; no bueno

The notion is, indeed, intriguing... but my shoulder doth protest.

FC

OT. I forgot to mention I used to own a Whelen in a Remington 760. It hit with authority but it went to a dealer at a gun show. I wanted the cash for something else. Don't even remember what! I have some 366s and some .358s and as we talked I have two projects for JES to 358 Win. Will let Whelennut know when it happens. But this thread and another makes me want to go up to the Petrov's 400 Whelen in an FN Mauser rebuild. I Better get the 358 Win.s done first. "Hi. My name is Rustyzipper and I'm a medium bore slut." …………….

Hi folks, long time lurker, first time poster.....

I just wanted to pipe up on this 35 Whelen thread - I've been playing with a new Hawkeye starting off with the 225 Sierra, and just wasn't impressed with the the "traditional" powders. Achieved so-so accuracy and velocity with the standards, so tried Alliant Varmit. Accuracy immediately improved to the ~1-1.25 range with velocities approaching 2700 in my 22" barrel. Looks like a keeper in my rifle, but I'm early in the development process. Just my .02 worth.

Great thread!

Welcome to the 'fire, KLD.

In my Improved model, I've found 225 SGKs over Re-15 (Re-12, too, if you have any; it's discontinued) to be extremely accurate.

With the 225gr. Sierra the powder that give the best accuracy in my rebored M/70 is IMR 4064.

About that...I've had a heck of a time finding the current SAAMI 35 Whelen pressure spec. Sorry it's taken so long to respond.

However, with some inspired searching this morning I hit pay dirt!

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Right from the horses mouth! It lists a Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) of 52,000 CUP (more on that below). It also helpfully lists some representative velocities of:

So, given that SAAMI expects a 200 gr bullet to run at 2,660 FPS versus 2,900, and the 250 gr bullet to run at under 2,400 FPS instead of 2,700, it looks like the "hot" Whelen loads are well above SAAMI spec. I'd say "+P" is entirely apt for those hot loads, whether or not SAAMI is abdicating whatever responsibility it has for that term. It also seems to me the only saving grace for Whelen pump and autoloader owners is that they must generally be knowledgeable shooters, given some of the hot loads available.

Now back to that MAP pressure in CUP. What in the world is CUP doing in any current pressure specification? It's simply outdated. IMO the industry should bulk convert legacy data from CUP to PSI in a safe way, and exactly zero new anything should be published in CUP.

Here's a good link on CUP versus PSI:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...the-difference-in-pressure-measurements/

As that article says, the CUP number doesn't correlate well with PSI for several well known cartridges. The .223 is listed as 52,000 CUP and 55,000 PSI. The .308 is listed as 52,000 CUP and 62,000 PSI. So what does 52,000 CUP mean for the 35 Whelen? Apparently under 60K PSI. Perhaps a Quickload owner could guesstimate pressure in PSI based on the SAAMI estimated velocities and a 24 inch barrel...?

The other thing that surprised me is the amount of load data published with no pressure data. Nosler, for instance, doesn't include pressure data. I guess given the decent interior ballistics software around today one could double check that way...

I hope it was interesting!

Now I am down to two rifles, a .270W and a 338WM. If I wanted to mess with another Whelen ( such an outstanding round!) I'd probably try a pump standard Whelen and set it up with a receiver sight for heavy snow days. As it is, I like loading my 338WM up and down for what I used the Whelen AI for.

WhelenNut - what knife is in the rib cage picture? It looks like a good one.

Some inaccuracies here and some good data. Since the OP requested NEW powders I'll stick to that.
I have worked extensively with PP 2000-MR and PP-Varmint in the 35 Whelen AI (which only gains maybe 50 fps over the standard at the same pressures).
My rifle is a commercial Husqvarna Mauser with a 23" barrel and a long throat such that the 3.4" magazine is the limiting factor, so I load everything to 3.375 and still jump over .100" to the lands.

SAMMI max for the Whelen is 62K PSI, 2K above its parent of the 30-06 and 3K below the .270 Win. Remington did not "screw up" the SAMMI spec, they just loaded their ammo below it to easily function in their pumps.

I am confident Speer and Sierra did not exceed the SAMMI spec of 62K PSI in their published data for the 250 HotCor and the 225 SGK (as well as Speer's 180 and 220, which I'll get to later)
I never ended up loading as much as Speer or Sierra did, because I got such excellent performance a bit under, but still what follows exceeds anything the Whelen could safely do with earlier powders. I take case head expansion (CHE) off all these loads to help verify the pressures.

250 Partition, 65 gr 2000-MR, CCI 200, 3.375 OAL. Shot 0.50 MOA, at 2650 fps. CHE was .0002" (.0005" is considered the border of getting warm by most who use CHE as a metric)

225 TSX, 70 gr 2000-MR, CCI 200, 3.375 OAL. Shot 1.0 MOA at 2800 fps. CHE was also .0002". The Sierra 225 SGK shot 0.8 MOA at the same speed with the same charge.

PP 2000-MR is too slow for 200 grain bullets in the Whelen. You just can't get enough in the case to reach its potential. I used the slightly faster PP Varmint for the 200 TTSX. There is no published Varmint data for the 200 (that I could find, but Speer has data for the 180 and the 220, which allows for an easy interpolation indicating a max of 67 gr Varmint for about 3000 fps in the standard Whelen. I needed an extra grain for the slightly increased case capacity of my AI.

200 TTSX, 68 gr PP Varmint, CCI 200, 3.375 OAL. Shot 0.75 MOA at 2975 fps. CHE on this was .0004", appropriate since I was closer to what should be a "max" than the first two loads listed above. I am confident the Varmint load does not exceed the 62K SAMMI max and estimate the other two are right about 60K.

Remember my rifle has a long throat and is the AI version, nevertheless what I wrote about is well below the published max for the standard Whelen for the 2000-MR loads and right about max for the Varmint.

Best of luck,
Rex

I settled on the 225gn Accubond in my Whelen over 58gn of Varget. Nosler data shows 60.5gn as max. But my Whelen is a Ruger Hawkeye in walnut with the thin red rubber pad. It's the same pad on a couple of my Roberts rifles. It works fine with Roberts recoil but it hurt a bit with the Whelen. I've since replaced the stock with an HS Precision with a much thicker pad but I haven't changed the load. I don't know if it will kill any better with two grains more powder. Hmmmm.

Yeah those two grains of powder will make all the difference! I know nowadays it is popular to say a 6.5 Creed will kill just as well and as fast as anything bigger but my experience seems to show the 35 Whelen has an edge even on the 30-06. The 250 grain bullets really seem to do the job and quickly. I went 35 Whelen over the 338-06 because at the time there were a lot of round nosed bullets to play with and I have to say they were a are effective. Have one box left of the Hornady 250 gr. RN's and some 225 gr. Woodleigh weldcores left and I better get to using them before I get to old to do so.

I know I'm a little late here but have some input. For 30 years I carried a 358 Norma Magnum most of the time except for fall brown bear when they were feet away as opposed to yards. My bro in-law took his brown bear with it and hounded me out of it,,yes I did OK $. About a week later I sent my 30 Gibbs to JES and he tranformed it to a 35 Gibbs. It also came back a tackdriver!!! The 20" Norma Mag was 2500fps with 280 Swift Av Frames and 2675 with 250's, the 24" Gibbs has bettered both of these and I guessing more is possible if I cared to,, my powders are RL-15 and H-4895.

If it's any consolation Waterrat, I'm allways late to the party.
I bought my M77RS Ruger 30 plus years a go in 35 Whelen. the dealer had 2 dozen of them he let me pick the wood I wanted,only looked 4 or as recall.I wanted good straight grain thru the wrist for strength and stability. He was selling new Remington factory 250 gr loads at $7 a box ,should have bought a case. I put a 2.5 x 8 Vari X lll on it and never had a problem. Long story short 56 gr 4320 gave me 2550 fps and good groups with the 225 NPT. 2 elk and some deer later the Whelen rep is on the money for me. That load works in my gun ,it is 1 grain over the max in the Nosler reloading guide but it works. Somewhere between Nosler #5 and Nosler # 6 the 300 fps increase max velocity with 225 gr bullets happened. Simply amazing.. Wasn't until the interval between Nosler#6 and Nosler# 7 that the top loads for 250 gr bullets went up 100-125 fps. Some barrel difference for sure as the test barrel for #5 & #6 was a 24" Lilja while they used a 26" Pac Nor for data in #7 & #8. Things change all the time my Whelen still is good and can allways rely on it to hold up it's end with a properly placed shot as well as more recoil than you really need. That Ruger don't weigh much and a joy to carry which a guy does a lot more than pull the trigger if you bought it to hunt. One other thing, just like Elmer Keith said " you can eat right up to the hole" I've found to be true it doesn't blow the hell out of the meat. Be awhile before I let go of mine.MB

Hard to say about the killing, but I can share my experience with the same bullet and Varget vs. 2000-MR

225 NAB, 60 gr Varget, CCI 200, 3.385 OAL. Shot 0.69" at 2706 fps
225 NAB, 69 gr 2000-MR, CCI 200, 3.385 OAL. Shot 0.68" at 2828 fps

This is in the same rifle I posted above, 35 WAI, 23" barrel, long throat, though both these loads are below published max for the basic Whelen.

Varget may be more temperature stable, I've yet to see much data on the stability of 2000-MR, and living in Tucson, it's hard to generate my own data on that subject.
I can say that when I changed out the thin hard pad on my rifle (which only weighs 7.6 pounds) to a Decelerator, it made a world of difference shooting from the bench. It was pretty brutal before and much more pleasant now.
Cheers,
Rex

"My old dad used my rifle to finish off a 6x6 he'd wounded with his 338-06. It was almost dark and the bull was ambling straight away probably 100 yds. or so distance. Dad hit him squarely in the tater hole/anus with a TSX, the bull took a few more steps and flopped over, dead. The bullet traveled from the anus to the front of the right shoulder, under the skin, where we found it when skinning the bull-"

I'm trying to figure out in what scenario a .338-06 is not suitable to finish a job but a Whelen is?

Maybe just bad luck with the .338-06? I think all the .338s in our camp were jinxed or whatever because now nobody hunts with one of any flavor. There were several unexplainable shots where elk were not recovered. Must have been bad karma?

It's gotta be. I use Speer 270s in my 9.3x62 and it's quite the hammer. The .35 Whelen with 250s going that fast has got to be a killer. I like it.

I have a half dozen friends here in Alaska that make gut piles every year with a .35 Whelen. They are mostly moose, caribou and occasionally bear hunters and most of the shots are one shot kills. Their bullet of choice is the 225 grain Accubond and they all load their own ammo. They are good hunters and most that hunt Alaska know the caribou normally offers a longer shot then moose do, but not always.

Last fall one of them took a very respectable caribou at about 450 yards with one shot. This same guy has a video on his phone where he is hitting the nose on the ram at the local range, the distance is 800 yards. He has a tricked out Rem. 700 with a Lilja barrel and a large Burris Eliminator scope. His longest shot on a caribou is about 800 yards and he has shot more caribou then any one I know, mainly because of his remote job and access to a herd with a liberal season and bag limit and an on sight freezer and being allowed to fly meat out when rotating off shift.

Any one that thinks the Whelen can not reach out and touch a critter past 400 yards needs to spend some time with my friends. I am a user and fan of the .338 Winny and 338-06, but I also believe the .35 bore is right there at the diameter that makes and impression on big game, more so then the 30-06 and possibly my beloved .338 bore.

The .35 Whelen is what made me desire and old style lever action rifle offering .35 Whelen ballistics. So I now have a .348 Ackley Improved being made up on a Mirkoru Win. Mod. 71. It and H4350 hopefully will push the 250 grain bonded Alaska Bullet Works bullets close to 2,500 fps mv.

The .35 Whelen is one of the best caliber choices one could make for Alaska's big game. At my age I will continue with my custom Mod. 70 "Classic Stainless .338, but if I was starting over and younger, it might be a .35 Whelen.

Precious Liberty
I use the Speer load of cfe223 for the 250grain Speer hotcore and get a chronoed 2,700 fps
With the 225 grain accubonds and noslers load of 60.5 grains of Varget I get a chronoed 2,800fps
With a 225 grain Woodleigh PPSP and 64 grains of cfe223 I get a chronoed 2,950fps
My rifle is a Stevens 200 rebarreled with a 25inch barrel 1 in 12 twist.
Cases Remington
Primer Remington standard large rifle
I have used CFE223 in temps from minus 4 to 40 degrees Celsius and have not had any problems with temperatures stability. Standard large rifle primers set the ball powder cfe223 off with out issues.
I have found CFE223 gives me the highest velocity of any powder available in Australia. It's a crying shame that it will no longer be imported into OZ, fortunately I laid in a good supply.
Bob Nelson

35 Whelen Nut.
The reason for the increased velocity ISN'T increased pressure. It was explained to me that the older powders have a parabolic pressure curve where as the newer powders like CFE223 and Hogdon superformance have a pressure curve that doesn't peak as hit but maintains the pressure over a longer period of time. This is what enables the newer powders to give a higher velocity at a similar or lower pressure.
If it wasn't safe I don't think powder companies would load it.
A 250 grain hornaday roundnose at 2,700fps puts a lot of hurt on an Oryx

My rifle must be a freak in the accuracy department as 5 different shooters using a variety of bullets ( 2x225gn accubonds, 2x225gn Woodleigh PPSP, 2x250 gn hornaday roundnose, 2x 250 gn hornaday spire points and 2x250gn Speer hotcores)) into a 1.2 inch group at 100 yards. My PH wanted to buy the rifle.

It's a plain Jane Stevens 200/ Savage 110 with a 25 inch MAB stainless barrel 1in 12 twist, rifle Basix trigger Leopold mounts and Zies terra scope.
The 225 grain accubonds and woodleigh projectiles at 2,800 to 2,950 fps give between 4,000 and 4,300 for of muzzle energy.
Yes these velocities seen high but with the newer powders available now they are SAFELY available.

If a 225 grain TSX @@2700 fps can be called a +P load what do I call a,225 grain woodleigh PPSP @292950 fps chronoed and developing 4,300+ fpe of muzzle energy. This is safely achieved in my standard Whelen
The Whelen is very underrated and as said Remington castrated it at birth giving it less than 50,000 psi. If'n the 25 ought six, 270 and 280 can't be loaded to 60,000 psi safely why can't the ought 6 and Whelen be give a set after balls as well. This can be Dane SAFELY with some of the newer powders.
Bob Nelson.

You're absolutely right Bob. SAAMI pressure limit for the .35 Whelen is 62K PSI.
Happily some of the latest loading manuals feature data that gets into that neighborhood, Speer and Sierra in particular. 250 gr at 2700 and 225 gr at 2900. That's some thump right there.

Cheers,
Rex

Precious Liberty
All that may be true and correct with the powders that were available at the time of testing by SAAMI BUT Duluth the advent of newer and better powders surely this is now not as current as it could be.

SAAMI lists the 200 grain bullet at 2,660 fps for max pressure loads.
If this is correct how do Hornaday get 2,900 fps for the same weights and still remain within the saami pressure constraints.

I don't think companies like Speer, Nosler, Barnes or Hornaday would list way over pressure loads to obtain the velocities they get. If'n they were dangerous they would have had their respective arses sued off by now.
I'm not saying saami is wrong just needs revision.
Yes trying to convert cup to psi is a minefield frought with danger. Choose one or the other not both.
Just my 2cents worth from a humble Australian reloader.
Bob Nelson

Start with 4350 and the 250's should find a good happy medium of velociy and accuracy.

35W does all that I ever asked of my Norma and then some.

HORNADAY?

I've had two Brown-Whelens both 23 in. barrels.Wore out the first barrel doing load development and have tried every load combination under the sun including the new wonder powders.Best velocity with 250 gr. Bullets was 2620 fps,this out a Lilja SS tube.
The Brown-Whelen is a Gibbs type improved version that theoretically should do better than a standard Whelen,mine obviously hasn't gotten the message.

Funny post, I would have quit at around 200 rounds is I couldn't find a load that would shoot in a Whelen. Mine shoots everything very well except the 200 gr.RN's made for the 35 Remington. Even those will put three under 2 inches every time. Wore out a barrel would have to been more than 3 thousand rounds!

Just to be specific sir - Have you tried Power Pro 2000-MR? I'm not sure which other powders are the "wonder powder" in the Whelen, but that one is.
I get 2650 with the 250 Partition in my 23" barreled 35 WAI almost two grains under Speer's published max for the 250 HotCor in the basic Whelen (which gave them 2700 FPS in the basic Whelen.)
And PP Varmint gets me 2975 FPS with the 200 TTSX. These are not hot-rodded, over pressure loads. The first one is actually very gentle on the brass (not so much on my shoulder though, mainly why I stopped at 2650 FPS!)
Cheers,
Rex

Got a long winded spiel so here it goes.
My affair with the .35BW dates back quite a few years,before factory .35 Whelen brass was made, had to use .30-06 brass neck up to about .40 cal. create false shoulder and fireform.First rifle was a commercial FN 98 that was originally a .270,screwed on a Brownells threade short chambered barrel in .35 cal. I don't remember if it was a 12 or 14 twist.This was a good combination and fed very well with no work to the rails,it has become my all-time favorite caliber.Have worked primarily with 250 gr. bullet but have shot 225's as well 275 and 300 gr. Hawks.Initially left the barrel at 26" but later cut it to 22",this lost about 100 fps velocity.I then went on an involved quest to get 2700fps with the 250 gr. bullets,as you'll see.
Powders tried were IMR 3031,4320,4064,4007,4451,4350.RL 12,15,16,17,19.VV 140,540,550,560.Hodgdon 380,4350,Varget,Superformance,BLC-2,414.BG4351.Norma 202,204.Winchester 748,760.AA 2520,Big Game. The newer powders that are really supposed to be the ticket such as 8208,100V,2000Mr were tried.All this in a maniacal effort to get to the magical 2700 fps 250 gr. bullet load.H4350 got to 2620fps but that has been tops.
My load development process consists of increasing one grain at a time till I get unmistakable high pressure indication back off 3 grains, then chronograph.If velocity is good then test for accurracy.I'm no big stickler for accuracy,if it shoots into an inch and a half good.
As you can see this barrel digested quite a few rounds and you must include fireform loads.I was always looking to simplify the fireform process and wound up trying a fast pistol powder with some kind of filler.This method seemed to work but actually resulted in a ringed chamber and made extraction difficult so this led to scrapping this barrel and going to plan B.
Next up was a push feed WIN. 70 in .243,not a big trick to remove the magazine spacer and rebarrel in .35 BW with a Lilja SS tube which was finished at 23" length,also believe this was a 12 twist.
Oddly enough,and I do mean oddly,only shot one big game animal with the first rifle and that was a Dall Sheep! Weird ha!
As a supposedly hairy chested hunter were you ever chided for not having a go at sheep hunting? I was pretty sure I wasn't a sheep hunter and set out to prove it.
Business obligations had interfered with a try at sheep so I contacted Rod Hardy in the Yukon and told him if he ever had an open warm fall to give me a call and one year he did.Met up with Rod in Whitehorse and off we went in the SuperCub to a remote spot that had sheep close by.Only thing is the rams had moved a couple mountains over but off we went.Blundered into a bunch of rams down low,looked them over and found a suitable ram and proceeded to shoot over him.Took another couple days but did manage to collect a nice ram.I used the 225 gr. Barnes X loaded to 2700 fps on that go around because grizzly was on the wanted list,didn't see one.
What a hell of an adventure it has all been and I'm sure I've left out quite a bit of stuff! Hope I haven't bored you too bad!

One thing id SAMMI pressures are M.A,P., Maximum Allowable Pressures which when you think about really doesn't mead squat. All that say is when a new run (lot) of ammo is run and tested, no pressure can be above the M.A.P., nothing more nothing less. I've run fresh Winchester 180 gr. Power Points over a chronograph that barely get past 2600 FPS. Advertised velocity is 2700 FPS. Just about all, if not all factory ammo is not loaded to reach advertised velocity. It's their fudge factor to make sure that don't go over M.A.P. About the only exception might be the introduction of a new gee whiz bang cartridge and when it takes hold velocity seems to drop off.
On calling a 700 FPS 225 gr. TSX load +p irritates you, the call those new powder load like the 2700 FPS 250 gr. loads +P+ and just enjoy the improvement.
Paul B.

Bore us?? Heck no! Love the hunting stories. And rifle stories. I built my .35 Whelen AI in about '92 or '93. The late John Pell barreled the Husqvarna commercial '98 for me and I did all the other work. It was a shooter from the start and I hot rodded it too much in my youth, but a tribute to the strong rifle it suffered no damage. Only primer I ever blew in over 30 years handloading was back then on that rifle. I'm totally over that nonsense these days but still love to find optimum powders and loads that give great velocities at moderate pressure.
Nowadays I can get better velocity than back then with loads that are not even breathing hard. Thus, I feel it my mission to help get you the velocity you're looking for, if possible.
Please check your records and tell us what charges you used with the 2000-MR and what velocities you got. (BTW, I used CCI 200 primers for all my 35 WAI 2000-MR loads and it "lit" just fine, despite some folks' advice to use magnum primers for heavy spherical powder loads.)
Speer's max for the 250 HotCor is 66.2 gr for 2709 FPS in the basic Whelen. 65 gr gave me 2650 and great accuracy in my 23" barreled WAI. and I quit there.
If you can get the water volume of a fired case of yours to the base of your desired 250 bullet, slipped in to your desired OAL, we'll do the math compared to my volume and get a WAG on what your MAX ought to be. Other than the extra volume you pick up from the Brown configuration, we won't get much more in the case 'cause its already compressed in the basic Whelen.
I'd say we can take this offline with just PM's but I bet some others are interested, based on the subject of this thread. PM me if you like.
I should have asked - what's your throat like. What would be the max OAL you can load based on touching the lands? How about the Mag length of your M-70? 3.4", or longer?

Cheers,
Rex

I read this thread a week or two ago so I went and picked up some PP Varmint and MR2000.

I could get the 200 TSX going about 2950 with a book max charge of Varmint from my 20" Whelen but accuracy was better between 2815-2850.

With the 250 Speer a max load of MR2000 got me 2629 with no obvious pressure signs and tested at 90+ degrees.

Shot the the 250 for accuracy this morning and it looks like upper end is where my rifle likes to be. Hoping to confirm accuracy tomorrow. If it works out accuracy wise a 250 speer at 2600+ from a 20" Whelen can do a lot of work from up close to quite a ways out. Pretty interesting and curbs my interest in adding a .358 Norma. FWIW my rifle is a paddle stock ruger and the 250 loaded hot is plenty snorty on the way back.

I bet it is.

Gnswizrd doesn't your latest load stretch the Whelen to 125 yards? Be Well, RZ.

Damn I’m gonna find some mr2000, 250’s would be a hammer

I’m looking for some myself.

I’ll be runnin Hornady 250 interlocks, whatcha thinkin bertz?

I don't think much would take and hold one. I have a literal pile of 250 PT's I picked up as 2nds years ago that shot like crazy out of my CDL at 2600 with RL15. I've had just as much luck with the 250 Speers as well. The Whelen doesn't need a Partition, but they handle stuff well and they were/are cheap from SPS.

#hurtlocker 😂😂

Oh for sure man. For awhile, that was the only rifle I wanted to hunt with. That 250 at 2600 pounded elk just as well as my 338's did and it was a little lighter rifle.

Ya mines noticeably lighter than my 338 as well, love it, great packin gun.
quick image upload

She’s a peach

That's a great picture Jud. Dig it. I have a Shrike I wanna get bedded to mine. The CDL is a nice enough wood stock, just too darned short for my monkey arms.



I have hunted it a bunch though.

Like button. It does suck having T-Rex arms!! Haha

I had one in 338 and snorty it was, recoil pad was one hard SOB! Would have kept it if it had been a 30-06.

MedRiver,
I never found a published load for the 200 TTSX (or any 200 grain bullet) with Varmint, so I interpolated between Speer's Varmint maxes for the 180 and the 220 to estimate what max would be for the 200, then worked up to confirm it with two separate bullets. I got about 2975 (in 23" barrel) which comports with your 2950 from the 20".
Would you please share the source of your book max for the 200 TTSX with Varmint - I'd like to see how close I got with my estimates.

Thanks,
Rex

Trex, 220 was 2975?

No Sir! My 225 TSX load was about 2850 FPS, and that was with 70 grains of PP 2000-MR. I never shot 220's in my rifle. The 2975 FPS was the velocity I got with the 200 TTSX in a 23" 35 Whelen AI with Varmint. Looks like MedRiver got 2950 FPS with the 200 TTSX and Varmint in his 20" barrel. I had calculated 67 grains as max for the 200 grain bullet with Varmint in the basic Whelen - I ended up needing 68/Varmint in the Ackely to get that 2975 FPS with the 200 TTSX (I had calculated around 3000 FPS in a 24" barrel so that was close enough for me).
Anxious to hear what the "book" charge was that gave MedRiver 2950 in his rifle.

Hope that clears it up. Those two powders do some wonderful things in the Whelen, but 2975 FPS with a 220 bullet would be (IMO) way over the top.

Cheers,
Rex