Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .338 Win Mag R19 "replacement" powder?

I like the speeds that R19 gives in the .338 ( 185s to 250s) but I am spooked by a bad cold temp problem I had at 10 degrees f. I was having to use a heavily compressed load under the then Barnes 185 XLC to get any speed. That bullet was "almost too slick" to use w/o a LEE Factory Crimp die, which I did not have then. I worked up the load in mid 50's. At 10 degs ( a freak storm blew in 10 days before my cow elk hunt!) my groups were all over and I lost around 150+ fps. At home, pulled the loads, solid cake, had to dig it all out w/screwdriver. I quickly used H4350 ( I don't remember the load right now ( it was 2002) and I killed my elk just fine. But it was not at R19 speeds, I do remember that much, ha. So, now I want to specifically try some of the Barnes 225 TTSX ( I've always used 185-210). I want R19 (even R22) speeds but with a Temp Stable ( cold weather) powder.

I did not know that Hunter was less temp stable than Big Game ( will try this one with the 160TTSX) I do have N560, R26, R23, H4350, H4831sc, but I would "like" 2900 or even more" from a 24" barrel. Can I get there with these listed powders? thanks.

You should be able to get 2900 from a 24" with RL-26 or H4350.

I use IMR 4350, I need to try the H brand when the IMR is gone.

I used RL19 in my .338 and 30-06 for years and it worked well. About three yeas ago I switched to Hunter for my 225 grain TTSX load and H4350 for my 30-06 with the 168 TTSX bullet. Here in Alaska I hunt in weather from 10 below to 60 above and don't shoot far enough to worry about the temperature.

If you are using lighter then 225 grain bullets H4350 is a good powder, just pick up enough power to last for a long time in case it gets hard to come by again.

If I was smarter I would use H4350 for my .338 and 30-06 and 6.5 Creedmoor and not worry about the fastest velocity I could get with other powders. Once I figure out my loads trajectory the animals don't care and neither does my target.

Thanks guys. I like to "see if I can" get top velocity from any cartridge, safely of course. I'm also after an acceptable, realistic accuracy. I am comfortable with 2" groups with muzzle loaders, 30-30 to 45-70, and their type. In a bolt gun, I want at least 1 1/4" for 3. I never ever shoot 5 shot groups, but look for reliability. I have learned how to shoot a big gun well, from the bench to hunting positions, so I know "I" can do it IF the rifle can. I can "live" with 2750 for the 338 and this 225TTSx, but only if its accurate. I think you can agree with me that we all have had rifles/loads that gave tremendous speed, sometimes in excess of our goal, only to have accuracy be non existent. That's OK if we don't have to back down too far. That's where I'm at. I like speed with the Barnes and Partitions, AFrames, etc. Big Woodleighs and the like, especially round noses are fine from 2300-2500 in every medium cartridge I ever used.

Mule Deer- what ball park powder charges do you think I would be looking at for 2900? I know several guys who use 75 gr R22 and the 250 partitions, and a few that use around 78gr R22 with the 225s. R22 is another I want to get away from....

Jim_Knight

I worked up to 76gr. of Hunter with the 225 Sierra for 2958 fps. I backed off to 75 for 2945 fps and had 2.25" groups at 220 yards. With R-26 I went to 77.5 gr. with the 2900 fps and 2.5" groups at 220 yards. I played with superformance also and 76 gr. got me 2913 fps. and 2.75" groups at 220 yards. This was from a Tikka T-3 lite SS. These were all 4 shot groups. Mostley used Federal cases and 215 primers. Some WLRM primers were also used. Saw no real difference with primer changes. These loads were also shot with 225 Hornady IB and Nosler partitions.

I have some 200 E-tips loaded and if the weather cooperates I will shoot them tomorrow or Friday. I think it will be 20 deg. with lite [5] winds.

I think you worry too much.

RL19, RL22, RL 17 have worked from -30C to +25C with no significant detectable issues.

AB- I am admittedly "pretty OCD" , ha. I'm certain that R19 alone was not the issue with my bad experience. It was so compressed I had crushed the powder column into a solid cake. No way it could ignite properly. I always loved Barnes bullets, but I never met an XLC I really liked to mess with, ha. I could probably use R19 the rest of my life in the 338 and never reproduce the same results, but I would never crush another load like that either! I used R22 in the 300 win Mag and the 180XBT in South Africa and Namibia with no problems. In Namibia, outside Aroab, it would be 20deg at night and heat up to 120deg by noon! We would lay around the ranch house until 3PM, and by 6PM you were pulling your coat on. My longest shots were a couple right at 380yds, which , for me, is long range. Never had a problem. But I DID have high pressure signs with R22 in a 280AI in Texas, around 75 deg. I had worked up the load in 50's and used it here in Utah and Wyoming that Fall/early winter no sweat. It surprised me on an exotic game ranch that February in Texas. had to beat the bolt open with heel of hand and primers were very flattened. And R19 has always been a Super Powder for me in every 240W ( 2 of them, ha) I used it in. So, I'm just trying to ease my own misgivings....hedge my bet I say. So now, whatever load I worked up and settled on during the spring/summer or Fall, I will shoot over chrono/test it myself at cold temps. I have no problems adjusting the charge up or down in any extreme temp, but, as mentioned, I too see more heat problems than cold. Thanks for helping me out guys!

I would take a look at R23 and R16 as well as R26. The first two are about as temperature stable as any smokeless powder on the market. Speer is showing some good velocities with 16 for the lighter bullets then R26 takes the honors for bullets 225 grains and over. R26 is cold stable just not heat stable so I would doubt it would be a problem for most typical elk hunting scenarios.

I have not had issues with R22 other than lot to lot variations, but I usually do load work up in the summer and don't worry too much about cold weather in Tx. I think MRP is more stable or at least more consistent. R19 has a mixed reputation on uniformity and temperature sensitivity so I just passed it by for the most part. Unless it was very heavy compression the forming a solid cake can point to high moisture levels in the powder. I try not to reload when humidity is high which is most of the time here or I move the operation inside.

With the same problem I did a bunch of testing, ended up with H4350 but also found that N160 did quite well, down to about 10 degrees.

I have some N160 and N560 too. I really liked N140 in a 22-250AI, it burned a lot cooler, didn't heat the barrel up fast.

So, you guys in Alaska and Canada, you haven't experienced any change in accuracy/power in the cold with Hunter or R22?

No. But once the load is worked up, I seldom use the chronograph. Once the rifle is sighted in, I seldom shoot for groups, a hunting I will go. I can't think of an issue or miss that I can lay at the feet of RL22. I've used it since 1991 in the 25-06 and later in the 338WM with a 185 gr TTSX. I've used RL 17 in my 300WSM in Africa and Alberta. -25C to +25C. No issues. Load developed in early fall, kind of in between the extremes. I was cautious to reduce the max load by at least 0.5gr. 168 gr TTSX does 3100fps. That is enough.

Posted way in past, I had the problem of working up loads in the hot summers of California, then hunting season in Montana and Wyoming. When I decided to check things out I was at a Montana ranch hunting for elk. Day before the hunt, at 12 degrees, chrono showed velocity of slightly over 2600 fps with a RL22 load that normally chono'd @ 2870 fps, or thereabouts. Later that day had shot @ 180 yds. Didn't compensate. Hit right where I aimed. No effect. I'll never know what might have happened at 3-400 yds. That's when I went for temperature stability testing which I did the next couple of years in late season hunts in Wyoming and settled on the H4350, then the two Vihtavouri's, N560 and N160. Those all chrono'd about the same in heat at home and near zero temps. Later, took elk with both the H4350 and the N160.

Thanks Bob, I was wondering how well N560 & N160 did. That's a good extreme spread.

i hunt mostly when its cold ,so to keep hot weather pressure problems from happening at the range i keep my handloads in a cooler with freezer packs in cooler.i also like to use Federal primers better in cold weather, Reloader 19 and 22 i like both of these powders. good luck,Pete53

Pete,

I've done numerous "cold" tests with frozen ammo on warmer days. Sometimes cold ammo simulates cold weather results pretty well, but usually not.

Will also make the general comment that temperature-induced velocity changes often don't make any difference in point-of-impact at 100 yards, and if they don't then there's not going to be enough difference even at 300+ yards to affect big-game hunting accuracy.

But sometimes temperature change makes a BIG difference in POI at 100 yards, which is the real problem. I have tested a LOT of handloads with various powders over the years at 70 and zero degrees (actual cold, not just chilled ammo) and while sometimes there's no change in POI or basic accuracy at 100 yards, sometimes there is. Also, the direction in change of POI is not usually down at 100 yards in colder temperatures, as so many hunters seem to expect it to be. It can be in ANY direction, including up and sideways. The biggest change I've seen is 3" sideways. That's rare, but often see 2". Have also seen groups open up considerably at zero.

Have NEVER seen any of those changes in a load that chronographs within about 30 fps at zero what it does at 70. Also, have yet to see any powder listed as temp-resistant produce more than about 30 fps difference, or any noticeable change in POI at 100 yards.

In hotter weather have seen loads that were "safe" at 70 lock up rifles, or even blow primers. While temperature-resistant powders usually do gain some velocity above 70, usually it's about half the gain as with more temperature-sensitive powders. And have yet to see loads with temp-resistant powders lock up rifles in hot weather, much less blow primers.

All of this is documented in a chapter of GUN GACK II, with a lot more details and a list of actual chronograph results in dozen of loads in 16 cartridges from the .17 Hornet to .375 H&H, with the cold temperature tests taking place in actual cold, with the rifle and ammo well-chilled, NOT just with the ammo chilled. Have been doing this for almost 30 years now, and two main points are:

1) At temperatures between about 25-85 Fahrenheit, just about all powders made today are temperature-resistant enough so there'll be no problems--though shooting a rifle quickly and often enough to heat the barrel can be an exception, particularly with some powders.

2) Unless you use a temp-resistant powder, you won't actually KNOW what will happen in real cold or real heat unless you TEST both rifle and load in those actual conditions. There may be no problem, but there can be major problems, either in point-of-impact or accuracy, amd just because a relatively temp-sensitive powder doesn't show accuracy or POI changes in one rifle or load doesn't mean it won't with another rifle or load.

I don't believe freezing cartridges even remotely simulates real conditions, and those efforts are useless!

You just MIGHT simulate a bit on the very first shot in a cool unfired rifle at a range, but after that first shot the heat of the chamber rapidly transfers through the very conductive brass to both the primer and the powder when you chamber and aim, and you lose any remote simulation to a first shot in a very cold hunting situation.

I like to test the rifle/ammo in cold weather. I'll leave it outside overnight, case it and let it sit out while I'm setting up. I'll even wait 30 minutes if its real cold between shots. My last test was R15 in a 35 WAI with the 310 Woodleigh. At 20 deg I no change at all from my 75 deg workup! I was impressed!

I'm using RL16 in my 338 but I'm not trying to get top velocities, and I'm using 200 grain bullets. I think it would be worth trying, although I haven't seen any data for RL16 with Barnes bullets. Speer has RL16 with their 225 grain bullet and a velocity of 90 fps less than the RL19 load. And I've seen Barnes data using RL17 and it gave only slightly less velocity than Ramshot Hunter, which was number one for velocity. RL17 is supposed to be really close to RL16 so again, it seems like RL16 would be worth trying.