Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters any difference between 165 and 180 grainers in 30'06

I string along with the 165's.I've used or seen used,the 165 and 180 Partitions on stuff from elk on down;on the elk both the bullets are usually balled up in the off-side hide if they hit shoulder bone or a lot of shoulder muscle.Through the ribs they sometimes exit,depending on distance,velocity,etc.I would expect things like like the X bulets to give even deeper penetration in the 165 gr weight.On deer and black bear size stuff we noticed that it was hard to keep a 165 Partition in the animal;pass-throughs were common.Two other bullets displaying similar characteristics are the 140 and 160 7mm partitions,for some reason.Some will argue with me here but I prefer the somewhat flatter trajectory of the 165's.Started at about 2900 fps and zeroed +3 at 100, they are only about 4" down at 300 yards from my rifle.I have not used 180's in the 30/06 in years.With todays premium bullets in 165,I doubt you will see any difference.I would not hesitate to shoot anything in North America, including moose and griz with a good 165 from a 30/06.

FWIW:

All of what has been said above it good.

My rifle solved this problem for me.

180 NP's were 1.75" groups at 100 and could not realiably hit the 9 inch gong at 285 yards (longest shot availalble at my home range).

150 TSX = 0.50" groups at 100, and 21 hits on the gong out of 21 shots.

The point is that we should not sweat this bullet stuff too much without "talking" to our rifle.

I am gonna see if'n I can get the 168 TSX to shoot, next, if not, I will stay with the 150s.

BMT

"talking to our rifle" I like that!

Personally I am from the camp of speak with your rifle and see what it likes, preferably it is a preme bullet and just use one bullet one weight for all comers.

Mark D

I would shoot whatever was most accurate, I guess-
That being said, I would prefer a 180gr slug for Elk(Nosler partition )

BMT - my model 70 really likes to shoot the 168 TSX - I would definitely give it a try. Best, John

Will do. Its hard to walk away from the 150s though. Man-oman, they shoot good.

BMT

If I had more gumption I'd apply all the amazing knowledge available on this board about the latest lighter weight, premium bullets. But my custom 30-06 shoots the 180 gr. Partition @ 2750 mv so well, and I've been shooting that load for so long it's become second nature, and animals I keep aiming at just keep dying, that I'll just stay with it and keep on hunting.

tho my hats off to all you experimenters....

And my hat is off to you for staying with what works and not farting around with all the other ballistic gack of the world!

Mark D

+1 No critter will ever know the difference.

You like ballistic gack,too...

Alpine-

Good post! You've obviously had a lot of experience and I agree with you; wasn't intending to teach or preach if you took it up that way.

George

Dober: looked up "gack" on dictionary.com and got the following definition:

"the sound of a cat coughing up a hairball"

don't even want to ASK what "ballistic gack" might be..

Ballistic Gack is like the sound one one cat puking and nearly as useful

An alternate definition is it's the Sputum that fuels the Campfire.

I was a big 180 grain fan until I tried 165 grainers and found I got all the devastation with less recoil. I now shoot 165 Hornady SP Interloks in all my 30-06's and 308 Win deer rifles.

It's really what you rifle likes the best. I might go back to 180 grain if I got a chance at an elk or a moose, but that's not likely.

shaman,

If you were to switch to a 150 grain in a stout bullet, such as a Partition or TSX or even a bonded, you'd probably sing the same basic tune. The recoil is lighter and the deer die just as fast, with good penetration to boot.

At least that's what I found when switching from 180s on down the scale over time to where I am now at, which is a 130 grain TSX.

I think that is what fuels most of the fires around here.
Everybody has a different definition of "big game".
To 95% of us big game is whitetail deer. Most bullets/cartridges from 30/30 on up will do just fine.
For others big game means bigger heavier animals and deer rifles with light weight may or may not cut the mustard depending on lots of variables. I wrote Bob Hagel a letter many years ago and he replied that my 35 Whelen would be Ok for elk with the 225 gr Partition but he would prefer a 250 gr.
He also said if I used my 30-06 for elk he suggested I try the 200 gr Partition because it would outperform the 180 gr.
whelennut

My own experience with the 165 - 180 grain .30-06 bullets was approached from the other direction than most. I used various 150 grain bullets for years (mostly on whitetail deer) and was very pleased......until I began to handload for a particular .30-06 rifle.

This rifle was an oddball in that unlike most I have used, it's most accurate loads were NOT slightly below maximum. In fact, it's very best accuracy came with loads that were borderline rediculous. The hotter I loaded it, the better it shot. I finally settled on a safe, but very hot load that pushed a 150 grain slug at just over 3100 fps....and got groups just over 1/4" at 100 yards.

That's where the trouble began. The same 150 grain slugs that had performed so well at 2800-2900 fps suddenly began to come apart when velosities went above 3000. I faced a choice....either drop the velosity (and lose accuracy) or find another bullet. The sulution, for me, was to go to the 165 grain bullet. At 2900 fps, they performed as well as the old reliable 150's had and gave even better penetration.

Later I tried several 180 grain slugs on heavier game (mostly hogs in the 300-400 pound range, but also the occational elk and one memorable buffalo). At 2800 fps, there was a small, but definite, advantage to the 180's over the 165 grain bullets as far as penetration was concerned when animals over 250 pounds were the target. For a dedicated elk - moose rifle, the 180's would definitely be my choice....while the 165's would be better for lighter game such as deer due to a slightly flatter trajectory.

The "secret" is the velosity range of each bullet.

I will say up front that I am somewhat traditional in my veiws about bullets. I like bullets made with a lead core. I will use, and like, the various "bonded core" bullets for tougher game, but distrust any "gimic" bullet that relies on "magic" construction techniques or exotic materials (the Nosler Partition being the lone exception). I have tried the various "alphabet" bullets made of depleted uranium, titanium, fallen meteor material.....or whatever else that is a non-lead core....and find them to be eratic and unreliable in their performance. Some love the various "XYZ" bullets but, for me, there is no replacement for the old, reliable, dependable lead core slug.

Call me old fashioned, out-of-touch, or whatever, but that's my opinion.

That said......there is a velosity range that seems to be "perfect" for traditional constructed bullets. At 2700-2900 fps they perform wonderfully, but push them any faster and you begin to get erratic expantion and penetration. Sometimes they work.....sometimes not. For a hot-loaded .30-06, the 165 and 180 grain bullets fall into this "perfect" range. Both work well with a slight advantage going to the 180 for "heavy" work. In the .300 Magnums, even the 165 may be too light (too fast) and the 180 or even 200 grain slugs be the best choice.

The secret isn't in a particular bullet weight, but is the "balance" needed to make the bullet do it's best work. That will vary according to the velosity range of each cartridge.

....... about 15 grains, if my math is right. If it sounds insignificant, it's because it is. Construction matters waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than 15 grains of weight.

I talk to my 30-06's from time to time. However I let them talk BACK to me and dictate what to use for my elk recipe. The 180 NP's usually win out.

Comparing 165 and 180 grain bullets of the same construction, the 180 grainer will penetrate deeper. Big news flash, eh? When using bullets of 'standard' jacketed lead core construction, I prefer the 180 grainer.

My wife and I both shot deer last year with 165 grain Speer Hot-Cors, both from rifles chambered in 308 Win. Neither exited. Yes, both deer died (ho-hum). In 180 grain weight, this make/model of bullet has never failed to exit deer from any of my 30-06s.
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