Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles My brother ordered his first AR, looking for reloading resources

This is on the way:




I’ve never loaded for a semi-auto anything. What do I need to know about loading for an AR? Recommended resources?

The twist is 1-8”, what is a good, cheap bullet to start with? I can order factory seconds from Shooter’s Pro Shop. I already have a bunch of 50 gr Ballistic Tips but I’m concerned that the twist isn’t optimal.

I use CCI 400 primers but from what I’ve read they’re not optimal for the AR. Any suggestions?

Crimp or no?

Finally, I have Benchmark and Varget in solid supply, any recommendations for loads?


Thanks,



P

I'd like to be helpful, but I've stubbornly stuck to lighter bullets (until very recently, as posted just a while ago). The 70-grain Accubonds probably don't fall in the "cheap" category, but I could tell they wanted to shoot in my two ARs of the 5.56 persuasion. Could very well be that the cheapest Hornadys would act the same, I dunno.

Where I can be helpful is on the subject of primers. I have never had any issues with primers like the CCI 400, but it is often said that it's much better to go with something like the 450 or the No.41. I think Federal is offering a special SR primer now specifically for ARs but I do not recall the name...AR Gold or some such? I believe Remington 7-1/2s are good to go in ARs also. As I said, I've never had issues using any small rifle primer (while avoiding Remington 6-1/2s, of course), but why learn the hard way? Experience can be a hard teacher.

Good luck on your quest.

68 / 69 grain bullet and varget is a good start.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/pro...&query_type_caliber-range-sort-by=or

https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/pro...&query_type_caliber-range-sort-by=or

68 Hornady's go on sale a lot as do the 75BTHPs. You can't go wrong with Varget. Or AR Comp, or H4895 or 8208 or.... several others.

I buy whatever SR primer is cheapest except for 400s, WSRs or 6 1/2s. They all work well with one load or another, but I prefer magnums. I've been shooting the heck out of Wolf right now. They come so cheap already loaded into virgin brass it's hard to pass up. They win matches too.

Take a look at the Sierra 65gr Gameking, should work in the 8 twist on that rifle.

I've only tried TAC with those but Varget should work. Sierra might have data, Hodgdon doesn't list a 65gr bullet in their online data.

If you're going to load a bunch, the ball powders (TAC, CFE223, ...) might be a better choice than extruded powders?
I use a Lee Perfect Powder Measure to drop TAC and it's very accurate.

I also lightly crimp my loads with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Started this for Lever Gun reloads and the practice has carried over to about everything else.

Hope this helps.

Crap only answered some of your questions.

For dies I have the cheaper Hornady American Series dies, they work good, maybe not Tier 1 but good enough for my loads.

As for primers, I found some CCI 450s at a decent price so that's all I've ever used.

65gr SGK's as someone above stated. I'm using H335 and CCI 400's with them though in a 1-7" with really good results. Haven't had any issues with 400's, YMMV.

Thanks for the replies. I have a bunch of TAC, too, so include that in any recommendations.




P

55 grain soft points in bulk are a good start. 63 grain Seirra SMP's are another. I like AA2230 (25 grains under a 55 g SP) AA2460 25.3 g 55g SP) or AA2460, 25.1 g under a 63 gr Sierra SMP. The old stand by is 25.6 grains of Benchmark and a 55 grain SP.

kwg

PH,
Congratulations to your brother. We look forward to a range report.

I've have very good luck with TAC.

52gr NCC seconds from the Shooters Proshop is my goto bullet for most applications. It's very accurate in my rifles and reasonably priced. I shoot them in 1 in 8 twists with no issues. 1 in 8 is a good all round twist for most users.

For primers, I shoot 450's with most of my ball powders, but I've found the S&B give better groups with TAC.

Third daughters rifle loves Benchmark behind the 40gr Nosler Flatbase bullets.

I've also shot a lot of H335 and BL(c)2 behind 50-55 gr bullets lit with CCI 450's. Both provide great results, but stay about a grain off max. It is a temp sensitive power, and prairie dogs like hot summer days.

AS, I don't want to assume anything at all. Do you mean you hunt with it also? If so, how well compared to other bullets commonly used for hunting?

Great prairie dog bullet, and I've killed a few coyotes with them, but the exits are usually pretty large. Minimum caliber for shooting real game in this state is .243. For that I have a 6x45 which I load with real hunting bullets.

I just ordered some 6mm 90gr Accubonds to try in 6x45. In .224 I picked up some 70gr AB's and some of the 77gr RDF to try out.

Ball powders don't get any better with volume.

As long as you watch out for bridges, thrown charges of stick powder can be more accurate than thrown charges of ball even if the ball is all +/-0.05gr and the stick is +/-0.2. That, and you get better temp stability.

ETA: I've been throwing ARComp and it seems to be +/-0.1gr. 8208 throws very well too. And Varget, it doesn't matter how bad it meters, it still shoots bugholes.

I’ve had good results with the 53 grain Varmegeddons from SPS for a cheap bullet.
Benchmark is going to do anything worth doing with the 50 grain class bullets in accuracy and velocity.
I’ve never had a slam fire with WSR or CCI 400’s but maybe I’m just lucky.
I don’t crimp my AR loads or use small base dies. Using standard FL dies there has always been plenty of neck tension to securely hold the bullets.

Glad you mentioned that one. Yes, great shooting bullet.

Varget/RL15 will be WAY too compressed to get 5.56 velocities out of that rig, and as a Wylde chamber you'll likely be just fine shooting at them. I'm a varget/RL15 fan, to be sure, but they just don't have the oomph for higher speed out of a small round like 5.56.

I run 77 SMKs through several of my guns at 25.2 grains of AA2520, which is over max for their .223 data but not even close to max (and I don't see any pressure signs there) in their 5.56 section. Obviously work up to that.

Definitely get some 2520 though, it meters like a dream and gets fantastic speed without making turkey patterns.

I have 4 guns that run that combo MOA or better to 300 (furthest I've really gone with it), and the one rig I've chrono'd is a 16" Semi-Holland-Esque build that puts em a little under 2750. Flippin smokin.

(OPS collar and brake will replace the yankee hill doohickey soon as the applicable suppressor is out of NFA jail; for the meantime I'll keep the fugly YHM mount so i can shoot suppressed)

I use rcbs 5.56 small base dies, I been shooting heavies out of mine. But did work a load up using 55gr hornady fun. Natchez has them on sale right now 7.99 a 100. I was going to order some until they wanted to charge $62 bucks to ship them to Alaska. I only used tac with a 75gr load. I use cfe223 with my 55gr load. Far as primers, I use either Remington 7 1/2 or WSR.. but can’t go wrong with cci450 i have messed with cci400 as well, with no issues.

what's the TAC Load for the 75 BTHP?

LC brass, rem 7-1/2 and?

Between 23.5 and 25.5gr
You probably won't get anywhere near 25.5 without moly.

AR loading, compiled from reading about 1000 posts here on the subject, but largely confirmed by myself:

1. Get ASC Stainless mags.
2. You probably don't need small base dies.
3. You don't need to crimp.
4. 55 gr. Hornadys with cannelure are decent GP bullet at a great price.
5. Bump shoulders back about .003"
6. 65 gr Game Kings are a better GP bullet, maybe not for rodents. 1-8 is plenty.
7. There's about 20 good powders, .223/5.56 is like .308, shoots well with double base horse manure. I like CFE 223 for heavies, 8208 for lights; Varget and TAC are keepers. I haven't tried AR Comp or 4895, they are on the list, just haven't gotten there.
8.Your 50's will probably be just fine, I've got a load for 40 gr BT and 8208 that shoots wonderfully in a 1-7. Need to shoot the Black Rifle Challenge.
9. Rem 7 1/2, CCI 450 and CCI 41 seem to be preferred due to the AR firing pin.
10. If your brass lands at about 4:00 you are gassed about right.

And finally:

Barrels will be burned.

What’s the CFE load for heavies?

I tried the Barnes TSX 62 and 70 grain bullets with CFE223, top end loads were compressed.
Ran out of room for powder before getting what I thought was decent velocity. Not much accuracy either.
I have a 20" BA 556 7 twist barrel on my (working up to) precision AR.

I'm thinking CFE223 is better for 60gr or less? I switched to TAC with the 65gr Sierra Gamekings and groups are shrinking.
Guess I could revisit the Barnes bullets with TAC? But I found some Nosler 69gr HPBTs I'm going to try next (with TAC) as soon as the range dries out.

Boom. Exactly what I was looking for.

The good news, I don’t GAF what the bullets cost, I ain’t paying for them. I have 750 50 grain Hornady VMax that need loading so I’ll probably just use the Benchmark load that shoots so well in our bolt rifles. The OAL is 2.276”, is that too long for most AR magazines? No problem to smoosh them down to 2.260”.




P

Not too long in an ASC mag, too long in a PMAG.

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/AppliedBallisticsMagazineLengths.pdf

25.0 to 26.0 gr with 64 and 65 gr, for me, up at the top of Hodgdon's listed .223 data; wish they listed 5.56 pressure data. Not really heavies now that I think about it, kind of mid-range these days. I haven't had any luck with 73 ELD's yet, but that doesn't seem unusual.



That's why you get ASC's.

The rule of thumb is to add 1.5gr of powder to go from .223 to 5.56 velocities. Of course you need to work up, and this is just a rule to give you an approximate upper limit.

Thanks.

Hornady 5.56 load data with a 68gr bullet is 26.9gr with CFE or 27.7gr of CFE with a 62gr FMJ

I bought a box of 69 grain HPBT Matchkings today. I hope theses are the “69 gr SMK” bullets I keep reading about. They’re not the tipped kind.

I’m going to load them at 2.250” with Varget and my brother will see what they do. Leaning toward 25 grains.




P

That should be close, I found the accuracy node at 25.4 gr. of Varget in my 18", 1:8 twist Wilson Match barrel.

24.5 Benchmark with the 69 grain Sierra works as well.

I loaded 10 at 25.3 grains, and 10 at 24.5 grains, all at 2.250”.

I also resized our accuracy load we call Pest Control, 50 gr BT Varmint over 26.5 gr Benchmark, down to 2.250”. I included 10 Bonded Solid Base over Varget at 2.153” and some 70 gr. RDF over TAC at 2.250”.

He’s got 6 different loads to try. Who knows, we might get lucky.



P

25.4gr of Varget has always been a little hot in my Wylde chambers. I use 25gr or just use my 77gr charge, 24 or 24.5.

TAC and Benchmark will work really well with those 50 grain Ballistic Tips, and they will have no problems because of an 8" twist. They are varmint bullets, but not the deliberately easy blow up kind like a Blitz King or whatever.

Save the Varget for the 65 grain Sierras and heavier.

I use Varget and 62 Barnes for killing pigs in my Rock River Varmints. The Winchester 64 grain power point is good also.


Make sure you trim brass, I loaded 500 rounds before I got my AR. The Speer brass was a little long. They wouldn’t chamber, had to shoot them up in a bolt gun.

There is load books that gives the 223 loads and 5.56 that is the best way to go Western Powder reloading guide has both of them

My brother’s range report. Keep in mind the rifle was new, and he’d never shot an AR before.

Most of the loads did not shoot well, but the famed accuracy load of 69 SMK and 25.3 gr Varget did this at 100 yards:




That’s .65” or so, good enough for me.

MV was 2730, extreme spread of three.

Three. I’m a frickin’ jaynius.




P

69 SMK ballistic coefficient is .301.

That's a really nice starting point.

Yeah, but he’s not happy with the velocity. That’s what you get with a 16” barrel and Varget.

Any other loads that approach 2900 at 2.250” with the 69 SMK that aren’t compressed?




P

I don't believe you can get there running sane pressures.

2900 is getting pretty fast in a 20". I usually aim for about 2850, tops. The highest velocity I've clocked in my guns is 2945fps from a Nosler 70RDF & 24gr of H4895. I can't tell you if that will work with a 69. I have no idea if it's a one & done load either. The primers didn't dump, but the pockets may be loose. I don't know, haven't tried loading them again.

H4895 has a good rep for making FPS, but so does TAC and a couple others.

Might be me, cause I'm an unwashed heathen, but you're getting sub 1" groups at 100 yards and 2700+ FPS out of a new rifle with a rookie shooter, what again is he griping about?

How far away is he going to shoot targets that the mythical extra 200 FPS will come into play?

IMHO, you're there.

Otherwise, 69gr Sierra Tipped Match King, 24.5grs of Benchmark, Rem 7 1/2 primers, 2.255 OAL. PMC brass or whatever commercial.

You should get 2825fps from a 16 inch.

2900 is a pipe dream, and even if you can get there with a 69 grain bullet in a 223/5.56, I doubt you'll have a group, it'll be more like a gathering.

That’s the problem, he’s no rookie, just new to the platform. He’s spoiled by my handloads in his bolt rifle, a Tikka Varmint with the longer heavier barrel. I get sub half-inch groups at 3400 FPS, 50 grain NBT. We went sage rat shooting last weekend, he made a first-shot kill on a rat (about the size of a skinny dollar bill) at 655 yards.

He needs to change his mindset.


P

Don’t let him shoot green tip ball ammo... that only comes from lake city with a 2-3 moa guarantee lol and it’s not very fast out of 14.5 inch m4 carbide either.

1 5 shot group and its a "sub moa" rifle. I agree with antelope sniper. The 1 5 shoot group shows great potential. Id still like to see how it really fares in the black rifle challenge here. Thats where we will see if its truly sub moa or not. Im also surprised no one is suggesting AR comp powder. Thats where id begin and probably end.

AR comp isn't going to give top velocities. It may, however, give the lowest ES and smallest groups.

You are right. The beauty in ar comp is it meters a lot better than varget, and you'll generally use less powder. Win win in loading for and shooting an ar.

I agree. Shooting ten shot groups has really changed my mind relative to a rifle's potential accuracy.


How's AR Comp compare with CFE 223 as a general purpose 223/5.56 powder?

David, everything else being equal, always favor stick powder over ball. Usually cleaner, less temp sensitive and, with bare muzzles, less recoil. The only advantage ball powder has is for use in progressive presses turning out sheetloads of blammo.

ETA: Oh, and ball powder is usually cheaper.

Pharm, that is a pretty bad azzed RRA. I'm sure it will be shooting very good in no time. Probably do quite well in the black rifle challenge, as soon as you get the right load developed for the girl. One of my buddies has the RRA ATH Carbine and it shoots well, but not quite as well as any of my rifles. Your brothers rifle is a better rifle for accuracy IMHO. If you decide to try AR comp powder, here's my recipe. I think Tyrone was asking about it in another thread:

20.5 gr AR Comp
73 gr. ELD match
FC range pick up brass (lc works about as well)
BR4 (or CCI 400 if you dont' have BR4's)
2.255" OAL

This load develops very low ES's and excellent accuracy in all of my .223's (Ar's and bolt guns). I watched my buddy shoot his new Savage Trophy predator hunter, using this load, the other day and damn near put them all in the orange dot except for 1 flyer. 9 shots were into 5/8". The flyer opened the group up to an inch. I was so damn impressed with my buddy Troy's shooting that day, that I told him I was going to post his target in the Moa all day long challenge, if he kept the other 10 shot group that small. Needless to say, his second 10 shot group fell apart.

What’s the velocity? He’s hung up on speed.

Lever is going to give you the most speed, if that's what he wants. Maybe CFE223 also.

Even then ball may not do better. From an old post:

I own an Lar 15, it is the first Are that I ever purchased, for accuracy try 25 gr Benchmark with the 52 gr Sierra hpbt match, I have shot groups under a quarter of an inch at 100 yds with this load and also shot a group that measured 1.7 inches at 400 yds.

Is your brother wanting this rifle for rats and chucks or for target? I originally loaded my M4 for varmints using 22-55gr BT's. I've now switched to 50gr VMAX's and man the pop is hugely different. Ooops nevermind I saw that you already have the VMAX's. If you haven't already check out the BC's on the 53gr VMAX.

Pharmseller I hope this helps you. I get 3180 fps with my 20" 1-9" HBAR using TAC and 50gr ZMAX, and I still have alittle more room to go up in my powder charge (2.250" COAL). The 53gr VMAX has a G1 BC of .290, I'm thinking I can drive that to 3200 fps. But lets say I only get 3150 fps using Benchmark. Compare that load, I use JBM, to your 50gr BT going 3400 fps. You could try the 53gr VMAX in the 16" barrel but I doubt you'll be able to match the trajectory of you NBT at 3400 fps. But the VMAX is more explosive so your brother might like the results. Hope this helps.

I wish I had my library unpack. I have a book I think it was call "The Art of The Black Rifle" or something like that. It was all about loading for the AR15.

My brother is looking for a higher bc bullet than most 53 grain and under bullets. I think I'll look at the 73 grain ELDM next.



P

70gr rdf has a BC of .410 and from what I read people are pretty happy with is and getting over 2800.. This Friday I'm going to the range to chrono my leverevolution load with 75gr Hornady and 77gr Sierras. Will let you all know what I get. I been tempted to buy some of those 77gr RDF bullets.

I'm getting over 2,900fps with the 70 RDF and H4895.
It may become my 600 yard bullet this year.

John,

Please keep me in the loop on Lever and 75 BTHP. I still havent's cracked the code.

I'm trying TAC and the 75 BTHP to replace my Varget load, just because Varget is sooooooooooooooo difficult to meter in a Dillon 550.

Was up your way Monday and Tuesday, but it was a turn and burn, or I would have contacted you. Literally, land at 8 PM, fly out at 3 PM.

NICE weather for April!

TAC and H4895 was what I used in 77gr CC. I hit 2750fps out of an M4 with .25MOA accuracy. TAC flows amazing but H4895 gave me better ES/SD. I will say I cannalured those bullets and used a Lee Factory crimp.

I went with a 223 Wylde upper now. I gave up on lever in my other upper I was getting groups like you were. So I bought another upper from psa 223 Wylde loaded up some ammo varget, 4064 then thought what heck try lever again. That lever shot very well actually had groups. Varget was another good one as well.

David, have you shot your pet varget load say 3/10 over and under? IE Varget pretty easy to get along with, and if it crunches in the 550 and is a few tenths off its really never seemed to matter much unless I wanted to shoot BR match or such.

I did shoot enough of TAC to realize it offered a lot of possibilities too. And obviously meters better.

there was a guy at one time that revamped my powder bars on the Dillon and came back with a micrometer setting on it too which helped a bit with target and RL15. FWIW. not sure if thats still around.

Jeff

Lots of positive comments here, I'm impressed. And no Tyrion either.

you need to shoot the challenge matches!

I'll just ad in case no one else did, careful with FC and top end loads. Pockets open quickly, often not good for more than a few shots if that. But often it was case capacity plus softness,IE if back off a pet load a bit, slow it down, the FC brass could be ok.

I can barely afford shooting rats and fishing lol. I used to shoot PPC, IDPA, and 3 Gun. I never got into rifle competitions and just shoot for my own enjoyment now.

I got some fc brass loaded up too see how it does. Been using LC brass. Also going to give frontier brass a try as well. My run out with LC brass has been pretty bad. Last night went and swapped out a lee sizing die with a rcbs sizing die. That seemed help out a lot.

I like Federal brass except for a couple of issues. Primer pockets can open up, but my last batch hasn't after four firings. And the brass stretches, sometimes .010" per resizing. I got a RCBS X dies for it but haven't tried it in 223 yet.

He's talking about this challenge
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...black-rifle-challenge-thread#Post9834630

If you've got a good load for the 70 RDF in an AR, please share. I hear these rumors repeated of people being "pretty happy with it", but everyone I've talked to who actually uses it (myself included) had trouble getting it to shoot well in an AR. I really wanted to like that bullet, but didn't find a solid repeatable load for it; none of the good results were repeatable over multiple range trips. That seems to be the general consensus of it on the snipershide forum as well.

The problem with Varget in a progressive isn't the variance in charge weights, it's the occasional bridging you get that really throws the charge weight of a couple of cartridges off.

That was through my former employer's M4 with 1-7" twist. My personal AR's have a 1-9" twist. I've heard that 1-9" can shoot 75gr, I can give it a try once I get some 75-77gr bullets. But it'll probably have to wait until after rat season. All my powder is being dedicated towards that rifght now.

I just looked at the rules and it sounds like 600 yards. but the last pictures look like they were shot at 100 yards. Is that correct?

It’s 100yds and it’s pretty fun shooting it. I have yet to crack moa with my AR. But fun trying

I am getting 3015 with 28.2 gr Alliant power pro 2000 with the 70 gr rdf, this is with a 24 inch match barrel on my Ar.

2 10 shot groups on one piece of paper at 100 yards, no mechanical rests or lead sleds but bulls bags are fine. Lighter bullets were always more accurate in my experience at close range.

I never could get 2 groups under MOA on the same paper. I fell apart every time.

Hmm well maybe I'll try when I do some load development. Orange dot targets or some other targets are ok?

Well I'll just leave it at this.. I've loaded a couple rounds or maybe a few ten thousand more than that on a 550 with Varget and RL15 and TAC over some years. Never saw a weird shot of any of those rounds really that I couldn't blame me on,. Granted high-power matches, not BR, but IIRC I did have the bars amended and did jiggle the press, plus a powder check system accounted for anything WAY out of line...

That said, and not knowing the new powders, TAC wouldn't be bad substitute IMHO.

you might be reading the irons part about reduced 600 yard targets, that means a 600 yard target scaled down in size to be shot at 100 yards instead and supposed to represent the difficulty of 600. Which it doesn't come close to IMHO, but you do have to shoot fairly snug groups. Might even have to shoot a tighter group at 100 than 600 to stay in the 10/x ring but the wind isn't nearly a factor at 100 like 600.

That said if you can produce a pair of 10 shot .25 MOA targets my hats off to you.

I"ve shot some snug groups that impressed me, but mostly luck really in many ways, all they way to 1800 some odd yards. But repeating them has been extremely tough... 3 shot groups at 1800 something on the order of about 8 inches with a rough tape measure... and 5 shot groups at 600 yards on the order of 1 inch or so. But I can't do it consistently

How did you get RL15 to work in the 550 powder measure? Or did you use a different powder measure mounted to the 550? I've used a Uniflow for stick powders like RL15 on mine, but no way will my Dillon powder dispenser work with it. It doesn't have the leverage to cut powder kernels, which is what happens in a sliding bar type like that, so it just hangs up and stops.

TAC of course is easy and meters great all day long in the Dillon dispenser.

Well I chrono a load of 26.5gr leverevolution,cci 400, frontier brass, 77gr otm, shot a 5 shot .648 group. avg velocity 2814 fps, SD of 12.
This bullet seated at 2.290
I’m going to use this load for the nra mid/range prone competition shoot this coming week. Shooting out to 600yds.

Like to add shot a load of 26.2gr of leverevolution, cci400, frontier brass, 75gr hornady 6 shots held strong for .662 then got 4 flyers that opened her up. Anyhow avg velocity 2830 fps, SD of 20
This bullet seated to 2.295

"you might be reading the irons part about reduced 600 yard targets, that means a 600 yard target scaled down in size to be shot at 100 yards instead and supposed to represent the difficulty of 600. Which it doesn't come close to IMHO, but you do have to shoot fairly snug groups. Might even have to shoot a tighter group at 100 than 600 to stay in the 10/x ring but the wind isn't nearly a factor at 100 like 600.

That said if you can produce a pair of 10 shot .25 MOA targets my hats off to you.

I"ve shot some snug groups that impressed me, but mostly luck really in many ways, all they way to 1800 some odd yards. But repeating them has been extremely tough... 3 shot groups at 1800 something on the order of about 8 inches with a rough tape measure... and 5 shot groups at 600 yards on the order of 1 inch or so. But I can't do it consistently[/quote]"

No those groups I mentioned were 3 shot in a 100 yard underground lab. Let me clarify that it was not a 10 shot group and there was virtually no wind in my setting. I was using a M4 which I shot off some bags.