Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game New Mexico BLM and state land locked....

Have been monitoring posts regarding locked and posted public lands in western states. Whereas I am not a resident of NM I cannot understand that some public lands, BLM and statel owned land, is behind locked gates. Can anyone from NM explain the issue? I do understand that public lands are open in MT the state of my residence. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought public land should be open to the public. MTG

Land locked generally refers to public lands surrounded by private lands, with no public access easement. It isn't that you can't legally be on those lands....but you can't legally get to those lands without trespassing.
There's plenty of these areas in Montana....they're not just confined to New Mexico. I believe Randy Newberg has an elk episode where he helos into a landlocked piece of BLM, and even doing that has supposedly been contested in court as has corner crossing checkerboard areas. Based on your thread title, I am not sure if this is what you're asking about or not...


There are some public lands that are off limits, especially state lands for O&G, mining and other industry, but that's another issue.

If the public land borders a public roadway and you have a tag then go hunt it. You can legally scout for a week or maybe two before the season begins as well

If it’s landlocked you can’t trespass to get to it

I am aware of land locked public land. I spoke to a NM game and fish officer about this issue today. His understanding of the NM state law is that if the property is leased, not BLM mind you, that the person that leases the property can lock it even if bordered by a county road. But, during hunting season a legal hunter can hunt this state public land. State lands that are land locked, not accessible via a public road can be off limits. A legal hunter cannot access these land locked areas, without permission, by way of a private road. The hunter must have permission to access this public state land, to cross private land, by the private land owner. MTG

NM State Land is not technically “public” land.

NMDGF pays yearly to allow hunting on state land.

During the rest of the year, state land is only accessible with written permission from the leasee.

A licensed hunter is allowed to access state land 7 days prior to the hunt to scout. There is no camping allowed on state land without a state permit and written permission from the leasee.

State land issues are going to get pretty interesting in the next few years with the new antelope rules.

NM state is leased by from the state of NM by the lease. Then, NMG&F pays the leasee to allow hunting on state land. Am I the only one that thinks that there is a questionable problem here? Is there an equitable exchange of funds? Is there a bit of questionable unfair exchange of funds?
I spoke to a land owner here in SW NM. He spoke of selling antelope tags for his property. Can an antelope tag be sold on state lands that are leased? Does anyone here see the dilemma of questionable actions? I ask you, is this the future of big game hunting in NM?
Now, as far as BLM land I have been assured that this cannot stand. NM ranchers/farmers cannot restrict access or charge to hunt BLM. BLM land that is land locked may be a different situation.

No, the “access fee” from the NMDGF is paid directly to the NM State land office, not to the leasee.

The new antelope plan (A-Plus) is going to cause quit a few issues. On the old A-Plus, a land owner was given a number of authorizations from the NMDGF to sale based on animal surveys and amount of deeded ground. If the LO had a certain amount of state or public land within his boundaries, the state would assign a number of hunters through the state draw to the ranch based on “public ground” acreage.

The LO had to allow equal access to the state hunter and the private Hunter, so “public” ground was not really an issue.

With the new system, the LO can sale as many antelope hunts as he wants regardless of acerage or animal densities by just writing a letter to said hunter so he/she can buy an over the counter lic. That lic. is only good for private ground

The problem is, a big portion of state land is in the middle of deeded ground. A majority of the state/BLM land is not fenced off from the deeded ground within the ranch boundaries.

If a LO is now telling you that you can hunt the state/public ground on his ranch with a lic. he sales you ,he is absolutely wrong. You can only hunt the deeded ground within his boundaries.

This has been an ongoing problem with the ranch only elk authorizations but it is all going to come to head now. There are a few groups stating they will be “policing” the “public” ground within deeded and reporting any discrepancy.

Yes, NM is jacked when it comes to how it handles private ground hunting

I’ll start with saying I am 100% for private property rights and owners,but the New Mexico Council of Outfitters and the NM Cattle growers has a choke hold on our commission and I don’t see it changing in the near future.

SLM, when you all are talking about "leased" state lands....what do you mean by that?
Leased for what? Grazing? O&G?

Sounds like NM is more jacked up than I thought.

SLM, please clarify your statement whereas in your initial post you stated that technically state land is not “public” land. In your succeeding post you referred to state or public land as “public” ground. I am a bit conflicted. Please set me straight.
Yes, NM is jacked when it comes to how it will handle state and private hunting. I ask only for clarification not to blur the issue NOT for sake of argument.
Understand that I am a nonresident, resident of MT, looking for equal hunting opportunity for all. I continue to keep informed regarding Montana public and private land issues. MTG

Yes, some leases are O&G, but the majority is grazing.

Sorry for the confusion. Was just trying to differentiate between private, state, BLM and forest.

State land is not open to the general public and is not available to a LO on authorizations.

We do have some state wildlife mangement areas but that is totally separate .

Confused now?

When it comes to private ground elk and antelope we are extremely jacked. Hope myself and everybody I know is wrong about the new A-Plus being a disaster for the antelope herds in certain parts of the state.

That’s not even looking at our outfitter welfare system and NR draw quota.

MTG, rereading my post I’m not sure I cleared it up?

If you have a state drawn lic. for any big game species you are allowed to hunt state land.

If you have a ranch only elk authorization or a LO over the counter antelope or deer lic.,you can not hunt state land.

It is never open to the general public.

That sucks.

Put in for WY this year and I'll show you BLM and FS without any of that BS, though our state lands do have some of that going on....

Been studying Wyo. for deer and antelope. Should have Wildchild’s schooling paid for this year.

I won’t confuse the issue with ranch only vs unit wide elk authorizations.

We can really screw some sh it up in NM.

We can look at it when I come up for my Supertag hunt.

Some public land O&G sites around here are off limits to the public, but it's usually due to OSHA safety requirements....not because the land is off limits in a general sense and you sure as hell don't need the lessee's written permission to go hunt or hike around in it.

Grazing doesn't create any public access restrictions on our state lands, though some ranchers think it does. I'm about as pro grazing as they come, but some of the big name landowners are stirring the pot big time. Sucks to be a normal, family owned rancher these days...some have the governor in their back pockets, but many are still pretty good dudes. The Turners and Wilkes brothers on the other hand...

You only need written permission to hunt non game, just roaming and camping.

State trust lands in New Mexico are not public land, but are held in trust by the state and are in fact managed for income. The bulk of the income is from leasing for mineral development. Grazing lands don't bring in anywhere near the amount of money that mineral leasing does. Since the New Mexico State Land Office manages these lands for the public trust, they can dictate what they are used for--including hunting. As SLM noted, the SLO receives a payment from the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish to allow hunting on state trust lands that are accessible to the public. If the lands are not accessible via public roads and/or easements, the lands cannot be hunted without the consent of the surface lessee.

The current situation with respect to antelope, elk and deer are likely to change--possibly drastically-- with the new administration. The game commission just cancelled their meeting scheduled for next week. We can only assume that the commissioners are waiting to see if they any of them will be reappointed, or if they will all be asked to submit their resignations--as usually happens when the governor's office changes hands. Edited to add that the bill to reform the New Mexico Game and Fish Commission did not pass--it died on the floor as time expired.

Perfect. You'll be the third person I know to have drawn a supertag.

Can't wait.

You may as well buy a deer, elk and antelope point this year so you'll have a somewhat realistic chance of drawing a decent tag in the next few years.

Let me begin to thank all, for this nonresident, regarding the public trust state lands. I have learned, been well informed and have a great deal of misgivings via the current NM administration. It is my wish that hunters, fisherman and all can use your lands in harmony. You have a battle ahead! MTG

There is a lot of public land in MT landlocked. The Durfee Hills near Lewistown for example.

Below is what is prohibited on New Mexico State Trust Lands, from their website. Pretty restrictive compared to public lands.

Link here - http://www.nmstatelands.org/uploads/files/Recreational/Prohibited%20Activities%20(updated%2012-13-13).pdf

6. I have never had issues using an ATV on established roads before. You can not take any vehicle off established roads on state to retrieve game . You traveled on one of our best “established “ roads on state land. I hate that road, it has cost me a few tires.

Our state lands can be complicated but it also offers some pretty good opportunities if a person works at it.

Mixed on if replacing the entire commission is what’s needed? The A-Plus was voted unanimously even though every sportsman’s group I ‘m aware of was on record against it.

We’ll see how our new Land Commissioner handles the agreement with NMDGF that ends in 2020.

Hopefully it’s not telling that the first thing she did was ban coyote calling contests on state land.

Let the games begin.

https://www.krqe.com/news/new-mexico/new-mexico-game-commissioners-asked-to-resign/1877907101

Unfortunately you're not wrong and won't be proven wrong. Its going to be an absolute disaster. Every game warden I know in NM is against it due to the amount of issues its going to cause

Ya, it’s going to be ugly.

NM won't get any of my NR money ever again. I have hunted there a few times and it is the most F'd up state in the west for a NR to hunt in regardless of the cost. The outfitters and ranches and LO's control things to an unholy level. I will pay my monies elsewhere. I hope they are able to reform(fix) it but I seriously doubt it will happen in my lifetime.

I don't blame you but you are robbing yourself by not enjoying the outdoor opportunities IMHO. More sad is the elected officials we have now. The pug Michelle LG... even said while running that if she gets in outfitters should have more tags and gun bans would be high on her priorities.

The stupid sheep in this state went for pot and welfare, guess they like being last in everything good.

I love NM though and hope it will change for the better some day.

all these western states need to cater to non-residents better ! they want our money

No "they" don't need to cater to non-residents.

that`s B.S. that Federal land belongs to all Americans and to tell you the truth non-residents on Federal land should pay the same price as residents too for a hunting license or residents on Federal land pay a non-resident fee. no public land or federal land should be land locked either there should free public access to that land , with walk on or horse access only including ranchers ! no horse or motor vehicle use during any hunting seasons,including wardens !

Non residents do pay the same price as a resident to be on federal land.

Nothing.

You are paying more to kill one of OUR animals though.

The issue of land locked state and federal lands is not one of access or hunting licenses issued by the state, but rather trespass. In New Mexico, it is illegal to trespass on private lands that are closed to trespass and which are properly marked at all useable points of access, according to state law. Game wardens are authorized to police trespass violations, as are Sheriff's deputies and any other law enforcement officer in whose jurisdiction they may be. The private landowner can deny trespass or permit it under his or her terms, including charging for permission to cross it and access public lands beyond the private land.

The wildlife belongs to the citizens of the state and are managed by the state in trust for the use and enjoyment its citizens. This issue has been extensively adjudicated, all the way to the Supreme Court. Selling nonresident hunting and fishing licenses is purely a means of raising revenue, and it confers nothing but the privilege of harvesting animals that belong to the state of New Mexico and its citizens.

Pete hunting license doesn't give you access to federal land, access is free, any national forest, BLM etc is free to access. It's the animal you are paying for.

As for walk on only, wow, some of these tracts are huge, millions of acres and many have roads on them. Walk only is not an option

Many of hte land locked blocks are there due to history when a rancher defaulted or turned it over.

Thank you. It's the same in Colorado except the landowner is under no obligation to post or mark private land. It's the responsibility of the user to know where the boundaries are and get permission before trespassing.

But I'm sure your explanation will fall on deaf ears. Some just like to complain, and some were born into a world where everything that's not how they want it to be is "unfair."

We have lots of public land sitting behind private land with no access other than climbing over a mountain range. If you can get to it, it's open to the public but unless the landowner cooperates, you can't cross his land to get to it. When the land was settled, settlers staked claims on much of the land with good water and flat land for farming. The steep stuff behind it wasn't claimed. Many large ranches were able to get possession of small parcels that controlled the water so the surrounding land can't be used for grazing because there's no water. That gave them sort of a defacto ownership. They don't own it but you can't get to it.

Some ranches would have their workers homestead on strategic parcels with water. As soon as they proved up and got title, they turned it over to the ranches. That wasn't exactly legal but it happened over and over across the west.

As others have mentioned, New Mexico has some public land with no public access since it's behind private land. This happens in most, if not all, western states.

In New Mexico a lot of state land is leased to ranchers in 99 year grazing leases. These leases are passed down through generations.

Some ranches are 100 percent state lease land and these can be hunted by public hunters.

Fully deeded ranches (no state lease land), like ours, are simply issued tag codes. Some ranchers sell them, some have friends and family come hunt, and some don't allow hunting.

Other ranches, probably the majority, are a combination of private deeded property and state lease. By law, the ranch owner can choose whether he/she wants hunting on the ranch or not, but it's an all or none proposition - public or state hunters must be allowed on these ranches if private hunters are allowed to hunt. Most ranches do allow hunting because a) they're hunter friendly and b) they need the revenue.

Some ranches do not allow hunting because they're opposed to hunting. This is a small percentage. Others don't allow hunting because they don't need the money and don't want to risk any liability. This is also a small percentage. The majority of ranches that don't allow hunting do so because of previous bad experiences with hunters and/or outfitters. This is the other way that state lands become locked.

NM Game and Fish does a fly over antelope census every spring/early summer. They then declare how many antelope they think should be taken per ranch. For round numbers, let's say a 10,000 acre ranch is half deeded acreage and half private. Fish & Game says 10 mature bucks can be taken off of this imaginary ranch. If the rancher allows hunting on the ranch, half of the hunters must be public. The other half, 5 tags, go to the rancher - he/she can sell them, give them to friends and family, or not use them.

I hope that clarifies things.

A few opinions:

1) I would agree that the A-plus system is confusing.

2) New Mexico's government is a mess.

3) There's probably not much that will ever change about fully public land or fully private land ranches. Where headway could be made is on the ranches that have combinations of private deeded and public lands. The outfitters that buy the private tags from ranches and resell them to hunters have to be held accountable by law enforcement - and by hunters. I literally cannot think of a game law I haven't seen an outfitter break in our corner of the state. Responsible outfitters would get more ranches opened up. To give you an idea of how bad the outfitters around us are, I'm certain that I could open a guiding business, approach the ranchers they're currently doing business with, and buy the tags for the same amount currently paid OR LESS. The ranchers hate doing business with them. (NOTE: I'm NOT casting shade on Mr. Drummond. He works in a different part of the state. I don't know him but, by all accounts here, he's well regarded. Kudos to him.)

4) In addition to better outfitters, the other thing that would help open up currently locked ranches are better hunters. A lot of hunters are drunk, and/or don't know or care about the game regulations, and/or don't know how to shoot, and/or don't know how to handle meat, and/or leave every closed gate they come to wide open. Be an ambassador for your sport. We've considered closing our ranch to hunting because of rude, dangerous and unlawful hunters, and the owners around us all tell me they consider it too every year. Our sport is on thin ice in a lot of places and unfortunately much of that has been earned.

all tracts of public land behind private land ,we the people need to have legislatures vote and force a public access road to that every mile or two with a public parking lot on the public land with a locked gate. like i said once hunting season opens foot travel only. these ranchers and public may use horses only before and after hunting seasons. the other part that should happen but probably never will is get all live stock out of the mountains permanently,its no wonder elk and deer come down to eat on lower land when the mountains have been over grazed for years,its almost shameful how the mountains have been ruined by livestock , over grazing,ponds,lakes ,trees and streams tore up and cow track humps all over. very few people will say anything against what has happen to the mountains most of this damage has been done by just a low percentage of people too,and we all know who it is ,just watch this post you will see who they try and protect.

Texas’, This is no longer how A-Pus is administered.

What is your home state?

Pete, public lands are supposed to be the "Lands of Many Uses." Your opinions are ignorant and myopic. I'm sure some ranchers would like to get rid of all the %$#@ hunters and that probably goes double for hikers, tree huggers, birdwatchers, and other public land users.

And I'm sure you'd be overjoyed if the federal government or state government came in and took an easment across your property without your consent, right?

Apparently, the state of confusion.

Appears he’s been a life long resident.

Your ignorance is revealing,. You don't have a clue about any of the "points" contained in your post--all you have is uniformed opinions. Do some research somewhere besides the local bar.

Are you saying that you're advocating for the Federal Government to take thousands of acres of private land via eminent domain?

And what is deeded land?

Land that is privately owned and on the state and county tax rolls.

( damned spell check!)

Here is a concise description of New Mexico State Trust Lands:

State Land Trust
The State Land Office is responsible for administering 9 million acres of surface and 13 million acres of subsurface estate for the beneficiaries of the state land trust, which includes schools, universities, hospitals and other important public institutions.

The Land Office seeks to optimize revenues while protecting the health of the land for future generations. By leasing state trust land for a wide array of uses, the Land Office generates hundreds of millions of dollars each year to support these beneficiaries while saving the average household about $800 in taxes.

State trust land is located in 32 of New Mexico’s 33 counties, with each acre of land designated to a specific beneficiary. Trust lands were granted to New Mexico by Congress under the Ferguson Act of 1898 and the Enabling Act of 1910. The latter act allowed New Mexico’s admission to the United States upon voter approval of the state constitution.

In general terms, the state was granted four square miles – Sections 2, 16, 32, and 36 – in each 36-section township. Where those sections had previously been sold or allocated to Indian pueblos, tribal reservations or pre-existing land grants, the state was allowed to pick lands elsewhere in lieu of the four designated sections. The state also received “quantity grants” from the federal government, in specific amounts to benefit specified universities, special schools, institutions, and other purposes. Those land grants totaled about 5 million acres.

Revenue generated from the extraction of oil and gas, from mining, the sale of land, and any other activity that depletes the resource is placed in the Land Grant Permanent Fund, which is invested for the beneficiaries. Revenues from activities like grazing, rights of way, and commercial activities that do not permanently deplete the resource are distributed through the Land Maintenance Fund to the designated beneficiaries after the Land Office covers its own expenses – an amount which typically is equal to about 2.5 percent of the revenue generated.

>>>>what i am saying all public land should have free public access to that land ,just like a lake has a public access for all people to use.

[quote=smokepole]Pete, public lands are supposed to be the "Lands of Many Uses." Your opinions are ignorant and myopic. I'm sure some ranchers would like to get rid of all the %$#@ hunters and that probably goes double for hikers, tree huggers, birdwatchers, and other public land users.

And I'm sure you'd be overjoyed if the federal government or state government came in and took an easment across your property without your consent, right

>>>> there is a easement across my property to public land i have no problem with it ,all public land should have free access for all residents and non-residents to use. your opinion is even more ignorant and selfish.

Irrespective of some of NM's dumbass access rules for their state managed land, I sometimes like very restricted (not completely restricted, mind you) public access. I have several public land spots that are almost completely surrounded by private, with only a long, thin series of qt/qt sections of public land to access it by. It usually involves a lot of walking, but once you're through those oddball public areas, you can have several sections of public land virtually to yourself. I don't mind hiking in the dark to access these types of areas.

Just one more tool in the toolbox to get away from other hunters and into public land critters.

nothing wrong with this type of public access either that`s what i have to do too and very seldom see anyone

I think that it is highly unlikely that most of the people who hold legal deeds to the land where those public access points that you want to establish every mile or two would be built, would volunteer to sell those parcel, so the majority would likely have to be taken through the courts via eminent domain.

I believe that there is free public access to most large parcels of Federal land, but it isn't always convenient.

I know of a good hunting spot on public land that comes within a mile of a public road, but the nearest public access is 50 miles away. The rancher who owns the grazing land between the public road and the public land allowed free access across his property for over 50 years, as long as anyone who wanted to trespass would first ask for permission. He shut it off completely when a couple of hunters who didn't ask for permission to trespass and cut the lock on the gate tore up the pasture by driving over it when it was wet/soft. He is very pro-hunting, but equally anti-trespasser and a couple guys ruined it for everyone. He was going to keep it closed for a year or 2 to make a point, but so many people gave him a hard time about it, he has closed it permanently to all but family and friends.

Thanks, MH. I guess we have a lot of that in Tx though it seems i only hear that term in relation to NM.

Having an easement on your land is not the same as the government coming in and taking the easement whether you like it or not.

Is that what happened to you?

"Selfish" is someone wanting to take someone else's property because he thinks he's entitled to cross their land whether they like ot or not.

If you look at ranches that are up for sale on sites like www.landwatch.com, you'll often see a price attached to a total number of acres and then in the details there is a breakdown between deeded acres and leased acres. So what initially may look like a great price doesn't look like such a good deal when you see what you're actually buying.

bump

Bet he doesn't answer

He came here awhile back crying about non-residents having to pay more for tags etc.

I am pretty sure that dipshit is from Minnesota.

He's a special needs child for sure.

Yes. He is from Minnesota.

He is an idiot.

Guessing he has no intent on hunting western states anyways.

Problem with money buying up large and small tracts of land closing off access to public land. Same problem exist in colorado.

on my land they took a line easement and opened a dirt road forever so we live with it ,not a big deal. but large tracts of public land behind a ranchers land should have an easement . why does the rancher or person with this private land in front of the public land the only one that can use it,that`s just wrong ! so money talks ? public land is for all American people to use for free ,we all pay taxes !

Where did you get this idea? Public lands are managed for many uses, most of which require the payment of fees. Your opinions do not constitute facts.

You are welcome to enter and exit by water or air. But what you can not do, is invade someone else's land. So rent a chopper, and get airlifted in and out, if you must hunt that property. (Or ask nicely, and clean up your own trash, which so few actually do).
To take by Eminent domain, is still thieft of property, just run through the courts, and forced on the land owner. Does that make it any easier to accept it as theft?. And you want to do it every couple of miles, for your convenience? No. Not just no, but hell NO!
You believe you have a Right to access, and you do, as long as it does NOT interfere with anyone else's Right to Property.
You might want to reread the Founding Fathers, and the Documents that define this country.
That Right to Pursue Happiness, was not the first rendition, nor does it mean you can have or do anything you want.
The original line was Life, Liberty, and Property. It was revised by Jefferson, who's muse was Locke. It was Locke using the phrase Pursuit of Happiness. It does not mean you can marry a goat, or have sex with farm animals, if it makes you happy. It means Career Path. The choice to choose your own life, and destiny. That no one could decide for you what you would be. It was revised, because Jefferson believed persuit of Happiness included property.
A great deal of the Constitution and Bill of rights, is about right to property, and the defense of it, and what it requires to ever deprive someone of it. It was the basis of the right to vote (the Franchise).Only LANDED men could vote, no drummers (bums or traveling men), you had to have a stake in the outcome of the election. It had to matter, it had to effect your future, your property. Property Rights are fundamental to freedom itself.
(At a guess, I would bet you would be in favor of doing away with patents and copywrites as well.)

I thought that Jefferson's personal pursuit of happiness was named Sally Hemmings.

"
I thought that Jefferson's personal pursuit of happiness was named Sally Hemmings."

SLM,

I called an talked to a NMGF guy at length about antelope and elk.

Since we don't have elk, I'll just pass on what I learned about antelope.

In a way not much has changed about private lands. The owners no longer sell tags, they sell permission to hunt, just like deer season.

On ranches with mixes of public and private, there probably will be more hunting for NM residents. State lease lands with public access will likely be covered with hunters, and I expect most of the antelope will be chased off those areas by 10 am on opening day.

I talked to several other ranchers in the area. They all said they're going to only allow as many hunters as have been typical as in years past. That's partly because they don't want the antelope shot out and they can't have hunters running around their places all the time.