Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 190 grain Barnes, 307 Winchester

Going to develop loads for this bullet and test on media in my BB94 in 307 Winchester (AE) It will have to be good to replace the 170 Nosler but I like the looks of the blunt flat nose and all that exposed lead. Anyone try this out and have any hints for loading. Going to start with H414.

Guessing you can find a bunch of data for that weight bullet in a 308 and go from there.

I was unaware of this bullet until I saw you post. I’ll have to look into it.
The 190 grain bullet had quite a following in the .30-30 at one time and the .303 Savage reputation with this weight bullet is well known.
I have used the 170 grain Partition some in the .307 Winchester but prefer the 170 grain Speer Hot Core as our deer and pigs are rather light weight and light framed.
The Speer bullet seated to my preferred 2.550” is a bit of a deep seater. The bullet being seated 0.480” deep.
I don’t know where the cannalure is on the Barnes bullet but seated for a COL of 2.560” with 0.575” inside the Barnes bullet leaves 45.2 grains of water but some of that is up around the shank of the bullet. You can overcome this slightly by using a Lee hand press and rotate the press upside down as you seat the bullet.
Anyway it will be a fun bullet to try in the .307 Winchester. I have driven the 170- grain Speer bullet through a mature West Texas white tail on several occasions with none exiting. All were under the skin just under the hide. On three of the occasions a bone was not hit. Center of the chest or at the sticking point just inside the shoulder entrance wounds. I went several years after the first kill of this type before it happened again but then had several more. The 170-grain Speer bullet is a very good bullet for the .307 Winchester. The listed BC for the Speer bullet is .304 and the listed BC for the Barnes is .296.
I am attaching a picture of the Speer bullet dimensions. If you get the Barnes any time soon put up a rough drawing with dimensions.
Then a drawing of the two bullets seated in the .307 Winchester case. They ended up different scale but I am not going to correct them as you can see what I am trying to say with the base of the bulle and point of the case should as reference.
I have found for close in shooting the ideal velocity for the 170-grain Speer bullet seems to be between 2,350 and 2,400 fps. You can drive them faster but the Speer bullet seems to be at its best in this velocity range.

Speer 170grain Hot Core


Barnes 190 grain blt seat

Forgot to mention the Hornady 180 grain JRN bullet ahead of 40.0 grains of IMR 4895 chronographed 2,479fps from my 20" barrel. The bullet has to be seated deeper than intended by the manufacturer and it is under size which give you trouble crimping.

I looked on their website snd didnt see it listed. Where do i get some???? Sounds like a good bullet for my wicked little thirty here in northwest wyoming.

Top left on this group

http://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/originals/

Thank you very much. As usual, you are very helpful.

Thanks again William. I am loading up a series with H414 and will report back next weekend. Hoping to hit 2300fps with accuracy. I'll also compare with the 170 Partition on terminal ballistic testing media. My own 307 shoots the Partition and Sierra 170 better than the Speer.

I can't imagine leaving the Partition for something else, but I guess playing is part of the game.

I have got to agree with Steelhead. Unless you happen to be in a lead free zone it’s hard to beat the Partitions. My 307 Marlin rechamber is whitetail deadly with Slim’s favorite load of 40.0 grs. of 4064 under the 170 Speer.

There is a lot to think about when considering bullets for the .307 Winchester.
When seating depth matches powder burn rate you arrive at maximum pressure just as you run out of case capacity.
Some bullets have a dimension better suited to the .307 case than others. This is a crumby drawing but here goes. The Nosler 170 grain Partition is a rather long bullet but is under size. The base diameter is .306” as is the diameter at the cannalure. Above the cannalure the bullet is .304”
With a new barrel this smaller diameter ahead of the cannalure is an advantage as the throat is short.
Crimping these undersize bullets can be a challenge even with the Lee Factory crimp die.
The 150 grain Nosler E Tip is a far easier bullet to work with as while the E Tip is longer than the Partition its diameter at the base is .307” and it is .308” up above the cannalure. The E Tip is an easy bullet to compress powder and still crimp.

Its interesting how things sometime just work out. The 40.0 grains of IMR 4064 filling the case with some compression, The Speer bullet being to right length and diameter to crimp easily, The Hot Core bullet being tough enough for the velocity and yet able to open up well on light frame deer. It all just sort of worked out.

The one powder which seemed to excel above others such as Hodgdon Varget, Alliant Reloder 15 and TAC was IMR 4007SC. Too bad about the recall as it has made the powder almost impossible to find.

IMR 4007SC seemed to be a moderate perform at a load density of 100% and when heavily compressed came into its own with high velocity and good accuracy. One of the easiest powder to compress I have worked with.

Thinking about how lucky we are today ammunition and component wise. It is a shame the rifle companies are no longer producing good rifles for levergunners. A Big Bore Winchester built as a Model 64 would give the Marlin 308MX a real run for its money. Both rifles in .356 Winchester would be another great combination.
The current crop of bullets are amazing in the accuracy they will deliver and in the exit wounds they leave. I have shot deer with all five of these and only the 160-grain FTX has given me reason to think twice. The FTX will penetrate and leaves a good exit wound but it opens up very quickly – typicly blowing the hair off the entrance wound in a one inch circle.
I should have included the Nosler E-Tip but this picture was taken awhile ago. Great days to be a levergunner.

Ok, but the OP speciffically stated 'replace the 170 Nosler', hence the reason I didn't mention 457 other bullets in my comparison to the 190.

You misunderstand my intent. I only wanted to show show the OP how long these bullets are. Pictures illustrate the length issues better than numbers. With the reduced COL on the .307 the longer bullets give you trouble seating over compressed powder charges.

The 190 grain Barnes original is 0.109” longer than the Nosler Partition. These bullets are intended for the .30-30 Winchester and they begin to taper rapidly above their intended crimping point. This causes problems seating bullets over a compressed powder charge and then trying to crimp – either during seating or as a separate step.
The balance between seating depth, compressed powder charges and powder type requires a bit of thought. The ball powders do not compress very much. While ball powders are not bulky Hodgdon 414 is slightly bulkier than Winchester 748/BLc2.

All I was trying to say is long bullets will give the handloader a challenge when trying to achieve high velocity. 2,225 fps or better should be easily achievable with the 190 grain bullet in the .307 Winchester. Doing it with ammunition that is easy to load and feeds smoothly may prove to be a challenge.

Got some on order. When it quits snowing ill work up loads in my short rifle and an Ackley 24” rifle. Then into water jugs compared to the 170 grain partition. Lots to do before season opens.....

A guy's gotta experiment! I have had some interesting times with a 200 Speer Spitzer lathed down to 190 grains and flat pointed. However it core separates. The 170 Nosler Partition is a good bullet and shoots well in my 94 but the internal belt is far back and it only keeps 50-55% of it's mass or so on impact as the front nose generally blows out. I am hoping the 190 Original 1) Expands well and 2) Hangs onto it's core and penetrates well. I am hoping to hit 2300 with H414.

I also am not sure about having a RN in a Tubular magazine.

Ill most likely use Leverevolution. Accuracy and velocity are superb. Winchester case, winchester primer, 37 grains of LVR runs 2380 from my 24” model 64A in 30/30 Ackley. If i can see the sights well, three shots will touch at one hundred yards. My short rifle in standard chambering will group at an inch with a grain less of LVR. 2152 fps is what it does. Sure it will go faster but accuracy goes away. The Ackley can go higher also, in fact in the upper 2400’s. Sadly those loads lack accuracy.
I shoot a 200 grain cast gas check bullet at 2225 in the Ackley, same bullet in a standard chamber 24” goes 2187 with accuracy.
Love packing around a Winchester model 64

Ok...After the day at the range I think I'll concentrate on the 160 FTX for caribou and under and the 170 Partition for moose. The 190 Barnes core separates which limits it's penetration to 160FTX levels. I only got to 2220ft/sec but low pressure and I am pretty sure I could hit 2350 or so. Seems accurate though!

Video of the day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBloqL-BbP8

Ok 190 grain Barnes O dimensions

OAL 1.11"
Diameter heel to cannelure .308
Diameter in front of cannelure .307
Heel to Rear of cannelure .570"
Nose to Front of cannelure .501"


44.5 grains H414 (Caution work up in your gun)
CCI 250 Primers
New Win Brass (Light at 161 grains..high capacity)
2210 ft/sec...moderate pressure
(Note light weight new brass, higher capacity and lower pressure than older Win Brass.)
1.95" group

Enjoyed the video.
Good news on 2 fronts with the Barnes 190gr bullet. The web site lists the OAL as 1.120"
The actual OAL of 1.110" changes the seating depth to .565" deep and the bullet diameter of .308" at that depth is great.

Just using a model for the .307 case with the Barnes bullet seated .565" deep you have room for 42.4 grains of Hodgdon 414 uncompressed.
Room for 40.2 grains of Alliant Reloder 15 uncompressed and it compresses rather easily.

Your box with a rather tough media is up close. Do you have test results on the Hornady FTX bullet?
My experience with the 160gr FTX bullet is it will wad up going through deer. It penetrates well and retains weight well but it sure rolls up.
I have posted pictures on the Beartooth forum but the FTX bullet when shot close leaves some unusual entrance wounds. For me the FTX bullet blows the hair off the entrance wound in a 1" circle leaving the white hide exposed with light bleeding through the skin in droplets like an abrasion. I have seen this several entrance wounds of this type.

When looking for bullets that will take on heavy bodies and bones at close range don't overlook the 150gr Barnes TTSX and the Hornady 140gr Monoflex whish is a GMX bullet for tubular magazines.
Both bullets work well in the .307 Winchester but are far more bullet than I need for Texas deer and pigs. .The deer and pigs in my area are not heavy bodied.
The 140gr Hornady Monoflex in particular opens quickly and retain weight - or appears to - I have not recovered one.
The Barnes acts like a Barnes X and opens well.while penetrating deeply. It will shed a petal but I don't consider this a problem.

Just got a couple boxes of the 190s. I’ll load in my Ackley and short rifle with standard chamber. My media is gallon milk jugs filled with water. Easy for me to get from my coffee hut.
Might even try adding a cannelure below the existing and see if holds the core better.

I have tested the 160 FTX at 2500fps. It generally holds together and penetrates quite well. The interlock feature seems to work pretty well. I really like the bullet and factory loaded Hornady ammo is averaging only slightly over 1MOA for me.

I think the swift A-frame designed for the 30 30 would be great in the 307. Have had a lot f experience with the other rounds of the big bore series but none with the 307, planning on correcting that soon. Kodiak probably makes a 30 30 bullet that should work well also.

Il test the nerf tip bullet as well for a comparison against north 61s media