If a 1911 pistol is to be carried with a loaded chamber, LET'S BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS:
Condition One (loaded chamber, hammer cocked, thumb safety engaged = "Cocked-and-Locked") is the ONLY way authorized by the US Army Training Manual to carry a 1911 pistol with a LOADED CHAMBER, to be ready for immediate combat. You'll also see this carry method recommended in owners manuals provided by 1911 pistol manufacturers.
Condition Three (loaded magazine, empty chamber, hammer fully forward) is certainly the safest carry method, and is the standard way authorized by the US Army Training Manual to carry a 1911 pistol, when immediate combat is not anticipated. But, it takes more to ready the pistol for firing
HOWEVER, Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer fully forward) is actually DANGEROUS. Should the hammer get snagged on something, drawn back to just short of the half-cock notch, then released, testing has shown that it can fire the cartridge at least three times out of five. Both the thumb safety and grip safety have been rendered useless when the pistol is in Condition Two.
An UNSAFE variation of Condition Two involves using the hammer's half-cock notch (sometimes misleadingly called a "safety notch") instead of lowering the hammer fully forward. Again, the thumb safety and grip safety are rendered useless. The DANGER comes from what is known as a FALSE HALF-COCK, which is created when both the hammer and trigger are clumsily manipulated simultaneously while attempting to lower the hammer into the half-cock notch, such that the tip of the half-cock notch gets precariously balanced on the tip of the sear. Then, a slight jarring of the pistol can cause the hammer to fall the rest of the way and fire the cartridge. This is not theoretical; it has happened.
Please feel free to repost this message wherever you can. It must be repeated again and again, until it reaches every 1911 pistol user.
The secret society of 1911Illuminati will excommunicate you and hunt you until the end of times........
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
Need to watch movies, rack the slide and later rack it again. A pump gun is pumped 10 times before shot. Then it never runs dry and 50 BG's are shot. A 1911 holds 200 shots too. Cocked and locked or an empty chamber on a 1911 both work.
Need to watch movies, rack the slide and later rack it again. A pump gun is pumped 10 times before shot. Then it never runs dry and 50 BG's are shot. A 1911 holds 200 shots too. Cocked and locked or an empty chamber on a 1911 both work.
I'm convinced any lingering Condition Two preference is the fault of those damned action movie directors who like actors in tense scenes to be cocking their 1911s, conveying that they really, really do mean business this time, when pointing the pistol threateningly.
HOWEVER, Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer fully forward) is actually DANGEROUS. Should the hammer get snagged on something, drawn back to just short of the half-cock notch, then released, testing has shown that it can fire the cartridge at least three times out of five. Both the thumb safety and grip safety have been rendered useless when the pistol is in Condition Two.
No. Too stooopid. 1911 users are all in nursing homes. Besides you are way off on the danger of Condition two: the danger is simply thumb slip while manipulating the hammer.
How did you access these classified need-to-know documents of special forces training.
You better go on the run, lose the cell, credit cards, take your cash and run! Ditch your car, steal one, and change direction in the next city!
Black project operators are hunting you right now!
Sarcasm over. I see you have only been here two years, and haven't participated much. Unless you just really want to start a thread, this is kind of old info to anyone who slightly cares.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
... this is kind of old info to anyone who slightly cares.
1911 pistol manufacturers deal with claims of defective "hammer safety" from a surprising number of ignorant, self-perforated individuals who hadn't got this message yet, most often sporting leg wounds on their holster side. Some folks just won't read the manual, so someone needs to spread the word to those who need to hear it. Why not us?
... this is kind of old info to anyone who slightly cares.
1911 pistol manufacturers deal with claims of defective "hammer safety" from a surprising number of ignorant, self-perforated individuals who hadn't got this message yet, most often sporting leg wounds on their holster side. Some folks just won't read the manual, so someone needs to spread the word to those who need to hear it. Why not us?
Maybe we're not as ignorant as the gun banned subjects in CA that you're used to dealing with. Us civilians in democratic (small d) states carry guns every day and know how to do it.
As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Well here are a few examples of how "high speed" their weapons training is, and bear in mind that these pictures were taken in Iraq.
First we have a senior enlisted service member, an E-7 with her pistol literally duct-taped into a shoulder holster. It was wrapped so tightly in there that there was virtually NO WAY she she could ever get it into action if the need arose.
Not a prayer:
Fortunately there was also a group of young, switched on Marines in the same DFAC with their weapons close at hand.
They actually looked like they knew what they were doing, and would have fun doing it...
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
Mackey, My ex brother in law was a pencil punching Army Reserve Lt. Colonel, commanding a processing base in the mid-east, no Iraq or Afghanistan. He bragged about making a big group of Marines eat outside the mess hall, sitting in the sand. They refused to leave their rifles outside, and he refused to let them eat inside.
I later told my wife, he thinks he won. He didn't. Those guys still kept their weapons, and they ate. And he just reinforced the differences between men returning from the fight, and management types who are just scared of a gun.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
I'm not advocating Ranger Miller's adventurous mode of carry. If he used a holster, I don't know what that was.
But I have known some serious, battle proven gunmen; from WWII and Korea vets right on through the Sand Wars, plus a whole lot of mayhem in the streets. I can think of four who killed multiple antagonists with an issued or personally owned 1911. A couple of them carried that pistol condition two. Given their results, I'd be disinclined to tell them they were doing it wrong.
Sadly, they're all gone now; but it was old age that got them, not 'leg wounds' from poor pistol handling.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
This was a rather bossy U.S. Army Major who we were tasked with protecting. Long story short she thought she was pretty hot stuff and fully equal of any of the people who were on her protection detail. We ended up in a remote province at a place where the locals were only being friendly to our faces and there was no doubt they were insurgents once they were out of our sight.
This hot shot Major, who insisted that she was just as capable somehow managed to get roughly 80-100 miles from the main U.S. base without a magazine in her sidearm (her only weapon) and no spare mags. Basically she was totally incompetent.
Funny thing is, none of us had any spare mags for her, as we don't carry Berettas.
Another Big Army Classic!
First I was discreetly trying to get these soldiers attention. We had been loaned out to provide protection/overwatch (I won't go into detail why the conventional Army and others need to be protected...)
Anyways, I was trying to tell the blonde SGT shown in the center of the pic that they cannot just leave their weapons unattended in their vehicles, since were were in a small town in a province in a Iraq and they were just asking for the iraqi police to steal their weapons or have them used against them. It was not a matter of IF, it was only a matter of WHEN some Iraqi grabbed one.
I was trying to be discreet, so as not to embarrass her. She thought I was motioning for her, because I wanted to hit on her..
The other thing I wanted to tell her was that as an NCO she was not exactly setting a great example since her 82nd Airborne patch was on UPSIDE DOWN....
I think I will pass on getting my weapons training from the conventional Military...
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
This was a rather bossy U.S. Army Major who we were tasked with protecting. Long story short she thought she was pretty hot stuff and fully equal of any of the people who were on her protection detail. We ended up in a remote province at a place where the locals were only being friendly to our faces and there was no doubt they were insurgents once they were out of our sight.
This hot shot Major, who insisted that she was just as capable somehow managed to get roughly 80-100 miles from the main U.S. base without a magazine in her sidearm (her only weapon) and no spare mags. Basically she was totally incompetent.
Funny thing is, none of us had any spare mags for her, as we don't carry Berettas.
Another Big Army Classic!
First I was discreetly trying to get these soldiers attention. We had been loaned out to provide protection/overwatch (I won't go into detail why the conventional Army and others need to be protected...)
Anyways, I was trying to tell the blonde SGT shown in the center of the pic that they cannot just leave their weapons unattended in their vehicles, since were were in a small town in a province in a Iraq and they were just asking for the iraqi police to steal their weapons or have them used against them. It was not a matter of IF, it was only a matter of WHEN some Iraqi grabbed one.
I was trying to be discreet, so as not to embarrass her. She thought I was motioning for her, because I wanted to hit on her..
The other thing I wanted to tell her was that as an NCO she was not exactly setting a great example since her 82nd Airborne patch was on UPSIDE DOWN....
I think I will pass on getting my weapons training from the conventional Military...
Amen...
Great pictures..
The AMU would be my only exception. Seen some good, basic dudes help out a bunch from those fellas.
Mackey, My ex brother in law was a pencil punching Army Reserve Lt. Colonel, commanding a processing base in the mid-east, no Iraq or Afghanistan. He bragged about making a big group of Marines eat outside the mess hall, sitting in the sand. They refused to leave their rifles outside, and he refused to let them eat inside.
I later told my wife, he thinks he won. He didn't. Those guys still kept their weapons, and they ate. And he just reinforced the differences between men returning from the fight, and management types who are just scared of a gun.
DB,
This sounds pretty typical. I am very glad to hear the Marines did what they did.
Due to the nature of our assignments, we were exempt from such jackassery but the problem was that when we were eating at regular U.S. DEFACs, the guards did not know this and would insist that we unload our weapons. Usually we just had our G19s with us anyways. I told my guys rather than get into a contest of egos, either unload and play their game, or wear your gun concealed, and hide your ID, and just show your regular ID, aka blend in. It was easier than butting heads with retards on power trips. Besides the odds of getting into a gunfight in the chowhall were about zip.
The more I dealt with the conventional military, the more I felt bad for the guys still in. The crap like your ex bro-in-law pulled is sadly pretty typical and indicative of a changing of the culture from warriors to career minded self absorbed twats who hate guys who actually do bad things to bad people for a living.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
This was a rather bossy U.S. Army Major who we were tasked with protecting. Long story short she thought she was pretty hot stuff and fully equal of any of the people who were on her protection detail. We ended up in a remote province at a place where the locals were only being friendly to our faces and there was no doubt they were insurgents once they were out of our sight.
This hot shot Major, who insisted that she was just as capable somehow managed to get roughly 80-100 miles from the main U.S. base without a magazine in her sidearm (her only weapon) and no spare mags. Basically she was totally incompetent.
Funny thing is, none of us had any spare mags for her, as we don't carry Berettas.
Another Big Army Classic!
First I was discreetly trying to get these soldiers attention. We had been loaned out to provide protection/overwatch (I won't go into detail why the conventional Army and others need to be protected...)
Anyways, I was trying to tell the blonde SGT shown in the center of the pic that they cannot just leave their weapons unattended in their vehicles, since were were in a small town in a province in a Iraq and they were just asking for the iraqi police to steal their weapons or have them used against them. It was not a matter of IF, it was only a matter of WHEN some Iraqi grabbed one.
I was trying to be discreet, so as not to embarrass her. She thought I was motioning for her, because I wanted to hit on her..
The other thing I wanted to tell her was that as an NCO she was not exactly setting a great example since her 82nd Airborne patch was on UPSIDE DOWN....
I think I will pass on getting my weapons training from the conventional Military...
The AMU would be my only exception. Seen some good, basic dudes help out a bunch from those fellas.
The AMU is outstanding!
They are not at all indicative of the military across the board. One of the guys I worked with overseas came from AMU, Cris Murray. He and MSG Holland developed the 6.8 SPC. Cris was a wealth of info and a great mentor on all things related to running the various embassy armories we were tasked with running.
They also for a long time have had a hand in USPSA and have had some rock stars come out of there like Julie Golob, who now shoots for S&W.
The AMU and USPSA style skills/weapons manipulations is what they should be teaching from day one.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
Mackey, My ex brother in law was a pencil punching Army Reserve Lt. Colonel, commanding a processing base in the mid-east, no Iraq or Afghanistan. He bragged about making a big group of Marines eat outside the mess hall, sitting in the sand. They refused to leave their rifles outside, and he refused to let them eat inside.
I later told my wife, he thinks he won. He didn't. Those guys still kept their weapons, and they ate. And he just reinforced the differences between men returning from the fight, and management types who are just scared of a gun.
DB,
This sounds pretty typical. I am very glad to hear the Marines did what they did.
Due to the nature of our assignments, we were exempt from such jackassery but the problem was that when we were eating at regular U.S. DEFACs, the guards did not know this and would insist that we unload our weapons. Usually we just had our G19s with us anyways. I told my guys rather than get into a contest of egos, either unload and play their game, or wear your gun concealed, and hide your ID, and just show your regular ID, aka blend in. It was easier than butting heads with retards on power trips. Besides the odds of getting into a gunfight in the chowhall were about zip.
The more I dealt with the conventional military, the more I felt bad for the guys still in. The crap like your ex bro-in-law pulled is sadly pretty typical and indicative of a changing of the culture from warriors to career minded self absorbed twats who hate guys who actually do bad things to bad people for a living.
Or the DB SgtMaj or 1stSgts that never left the FOB and had perfect cammies requiring the troopers to wash up and roll their sleeves before getting midrats AFTER coming back from a mission. I loved pissing in those Cheerios when I saw them trying to bully younger enlisted dudes. That is the part of the Corps I don’t miss but it does make funny stories when we’re all sitting around talking about the old days.
I don't know anyone under rthe age of 60 who readily admits to carrying a 1911
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
The AMU would be my only exception. Seen some good, basic dudes help out a bunch from those fellas.
The AMU is outstanding!
They are not at all indicative of the military across the board. One of the guys I worked with overseas came from AMU, Cris Murray. He and MSG Holland developed the 6.8 SPC. Cris was a wealth of info and a great mentor on all things related to running the various embassy armories we were tasked with running.
They also for a long time have had a hand in USPSA and have had some rock stars come out of there like Julie Golob, who now shoots for S&W.
The AMU and USPSA style skills/weapons manipulations is what they should be teaching from day one.
Please feel free to repost this message wherever you can. It must be repeated again and again, until it reaches every 1911 pistol user.
It reached every 1911 user about 30 years ago.
... except maybe for those rocket surgeons who, in more recent years, have shot themselves through ignorance, and the others who I fear are yet to follow them.
... except maybe for those rocket surgeons who, in more recent years, have shot themselves through ignorance, and the others who I fear are yet to follow them.
So how many people are you saying shot themselves in the last 12 months because they carried a 1911 in Condition 2?
My 21year old grandson just started carrying a new Kimber .45. Been shooting my 1911's for a dozen years now and getting can good with it too. Claims 9's and plastic guns are for puzziez.
Last edited by Remington6MM; 04/07/19.
I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
I don't know anyone under rthe age of 60 who readily admits to carrying a 1911
I was carrying one a week ago last Saturday (annual JMB 1911 shoot/social gathering at an industry friends place), when I popped this cow elk that had been hit by a truck in front of me in the pre-dawn hours:
One old school Hydrashok duty load from waaay back when and her suffering was quickly over.
I also managed to go the whole time without telling any of the guys at the social gathering (many of whom are actual subject matter experts...) how to carry their 1911s.
We also shot the new 2019 FBI qual course.
Reduced time frames, that was brought to us courtesy of one of their head firearms guys.
Pretty good representation of talent and backgrounds really. Was a fun time.
Fiddle fingered a couple of new Wilson Combat 1911s that a friend just received. Very nice guns.
Out of this cowboys price range though.
Fun time.
While I may carry a Glock at work most the time, I still stick a 1911 in my belt every now and then..
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
If a 1911 pistol is to be carried with a loaded chamber, LET'S BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS:
Condition One (loaded chamber, hammer cocked, thumb safety engaged = "Cocked-and-Locked") is the ONLY way authorized by the US Army Training Manual to carry a 1911 pistol with a LOADED CHAMBER, to be ready for immediate combat. You'll also see this carry method recommended in owners manuals provided by 1911 pistol manufacturers.
Condition Three (loaded magazine, empty chamber, hammer fully forward) is certainly the safest carry method, and is the standard way authorized by the US Army Training Manual to carry a 1911 pistol, when immediate combat is not anticipated. But, it takes more to ready the pistol for firing
HOWEVER, Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer fully forward) is actually DANGEROUS. Should the hammer get snagged on something, drawn back to just short of the half-cock notch, then released, testing has shown that it can fire the cartridge at least three times out of five. Both the thumb safety and grip safety have been rendered useless when the pistol is in Condition Two.
An UNSAFE variation of Condition Two involves using the hammer's half-cock notch (sometimes misleadingly called a "safety notch") instead of lowering the hammer fully forward. Again, the thumb safety and grip safety are rendered useless. The DANGER comes from what is known as a FALSE HALF-COCK, which is created when both the hammer and trigger are clumsily manipulated simultaneously while attempting to lower the hammer into the half-cock notch, such that the tip of the half-cock notch gets precariously balanced on the tip of the sear. Then, a slight jarring of the pistol can cause the hammer to fall the rest of the way and fire the cartridge. This is not theoretical; it has happened.
Please feel free to repost this message wherever you can. It must be repeated again and again, until it reaches every 1911 pistol user.
This was a rather bossy U.S. Army Major who we were tasked with protecting. Long story short she thought she was pretty hot stuff and fully equal of any of the people who were on her protection detail. We ended up in a remote province at a place where the locals were only being friendly to our faces and there was no doubt they were insurgents once they were out of our sight.
This hot shot Major, who insisted that she was just as capable somehow managed to get roughly 80-100 miles from the main U.S. base without a magazine in her sidearm (her only weapon) and no spare mags. Basically she was totally incompetent.
Funny thing is, none of us had any spare mags for her, as we don't carry Berettas.
Another Big Army Classic!
First I was discreetly trying to get these soldiers attention. We had been loaned out to provide protection/overwatch (I won't go into detail why the conventional Army and others need to be protected...)
Anyways, I was trying to tell the blonde SGT shown in the center of the pic that they cannot just leave their weapons unattended in their vehicles, since were were in a small town in a province in a Iraq and they were just asking for the iraqi police to steal their weapons or have them used against them. It was not a matter of IF, it was only a matter of WHEN some Iraqi grabbed one.
I was trying to be discreet, so as not to embarrass her. She thought I was motioning for her, because I wanted to hit on her..
The other thing I wanted to tell her was that as an NCO she was not exactly setting a great example since her 82nd Airborne patch was on UPSIDE DOWN....
I think I will pass on getting my weapons training from the conventional Military...
... except maybe for those rocket surgeons who, in more recent years, have shot themselves through ignorance, and the others who I fear are yet to follow them.
So how many people are you saying shot themselves in the last 12 months because they carried a 1911 in Condition 2?
Limited to the last 12 months, I know of one. Going back five years, I can recall at least three others. I know of other Condition Two UDs, but fortunately without injury. In one, it killed the guy's dog which had jumped into the seat with him. There are undoubtedly more, about which I have not yet heard.
Please take this seriously, and spread the word to those who need to hear it.
Interesting. I've owned/carried 1911s for 44 years, including better than 15 years of duty carry and have known a lot of 1911/Colt Delta packers in that time. I investigated a good number of actual and falsely reported 'accidental' shootings involving a host of firearms- but not one of them a 1911.
Typically, someone had recently purchased a new gun and were fondling and or dryfiring it when the discharge occurred. They usually eventually admitted they had reloaded the gun, forgot they had reloaded it and thought they were dryfiring an empty gun. My last (pre-retirement) LE position was at a 'base town' and unfortunately, the vast majority of ND's involved service members living off base in apartment complexes. This reinforced my belief in God and guardian angels because frequently, adjoining occupied apartments were perforated and the only injury was from bullet-shattered glass.
Firearms involved were primarily striker fired pistols and I noted the incidence of these 'thought it was unloaded' ND's increased after their introduction. But people can and do ND with single and double action revolvers, all manner of sporting shotguns and even the old Mosin-Nagant. The Mosin bellers loud enough to wake up neighbors and fortunately, that one went up through a porch roof.
I'm not calling you a liar Chippy but my opinion is that your experience vastly over-represents Condition Two NDs with the 1911, which resulted in injuries to a specific area of the body.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
I'm not advocating Ranger Miller's adventurous mode of carry. If he used a holster, I don't know what that was.
But I have known some serious, battle proven gunmen; from WWII and Korea vets right on through the Sand Wars, plus a whole lot of mayhem in the streets. I can think of four who killed multiple antagonists with an issued or personally owned 1911. A couple of them carried that pistol condition two. Given their results, I'd be disinclined to tell them they were doing it wrong.
Sadly, they're all gone now; but it was old age that got them, not 'leg wounds' from poor pistol handling.
Being a seasoned lawman/gunfighter does not insulate one from the consequences of unsafe gun handling practices. Take, for instance, the story of the retired police officer from a major metropolitan department who claimed something like nine kills in the line of duty. As he was visiting with a man in the man's office, he suggested the man should keep a gun there for protection in that neighborhood. Saying, "Let me show you a real man's gun," he reached into his briefcase. That's when the 10mm 1911 in his briefcase discharged, sending the bullet through the retired officer's leg and into the man he was visiting.
I'm not advocating Ranger Miller's adventurous mode of carry. If he used a holster, I don't know what that was.
But I have known some serious, battle proven gunmen; from WWII and Korea vets right on through the Sand Wars, plus a whole lot of mayhem in the streets. I can think of four who killed multiple antagonists with an issued or personally owned 1911. A couple of them carried that pistol condition two. Given their results, I'd be disinclined to tell them they were doing it wrong.
Sadly, they're all gone now; but it was old age that got them, not 'leg wounds' from poor pistol handling.
Being a seasoned lawman/gunfighter does not insulate one from the consequences of unsafe gun handling practices. Take, for instance, the story of the retired police officer from a major metropolitan department who claimed something like nine kills in the line of duty. As he was visiting with a man in the man's office, he suggested the man should keep a gun there for protection in that neighborhood. Saying, "Let me show you a real man's gun," he reached into his briefcase. That's when the 10mm 1911 in his briefcase discharged, sending the bullet through the retired officer's leg and into the man he was visiting.
Interesting. I've owned/carried 1911s for 44 years, including better than 15 years of duty carry and have known a lot of 1911/Colt Delta packers in that time. I investigated a good number of actual and falsely reported 'accidental' shootings involving a host of firearms- but not one of them a 1911.
Typically, someone had recently purchased a new gun and were fondling and or dryfiring it when the discharge occurred. They usually eventually admitted they had reloaded the gun, forgot they had reloaded it and thought they were dryfiring an empty gun. My last (pre-retirement) LE position was at a 'base town' and unfortunately, the vast majority of ND's involved service members living off base in apartment complexes. This reinforced my belief in God and guardian angels because frequently, adjoining occupied apartments were perforated and the only injury was from bullet-shattered glass.
Firearms involved were primarily striker fired pistols and I noted the incidence of these 'thought it was unloaded' ND's increased after their introduction. But people can and do ND with single and double action revolvers, all manner of sporting shotguns and even the old Mosin-Nagant. The Mosin bellers loud enough to wake up neighbors and fortunately, that one went up through a porch roof.
I'm not calling you a liar Chippy but my opinion is that your experience vastly over-represents Condition Two NDs with the 1911, which resulted in injuries to a specific area of the body.
I most certainly agree with you, and with John Wayne, that you can't fix stupid. But, in looking at comments, both here and elsewhere, concerning 1911 conditions of readiness, it becomes evident that many are not aware of the hazards associated with Condition Two carry. So, they cannot take them into account. That is something which can be fixed.
In dealing with any group of individuals, there will be those who are exceptionally bright, those who are of common intelligence, and those who are barely functional. To be effective, operating instructions for mechanical devices must be suitable for all individuals, even though exceptionally bright individuals may find them insultingly simple-minded.
I'm not advocating Ranger Miller's adventurous mode of carry. If he used a holster, I don't know what that was.
But I have known some serious, battle proven gunmen; from WWII and Korea vets right on through the Sand Wars, plus a whole lot of mayhem in the streets. I can think of four who killed multiple antagonists with an issued or personally owned 1911. A couple of them carried that pistol condition two. Given their results, I'd be disinclined to tell them they were doing it wrong.
Sadly, they're all gone now; but it was old age that got them, not 'leg wounds' from poor pistol handling.
Being a seasoned lawman/gunfighter does not insulate one from the consequences of unsafe gun handling practices. Take, for instance, the story of the retired police officer from a major metropolitan department who claimed something like nine kills in the line of duty. As he was visiting with a man in the man's office, he suggested the man should keep a gun there for protection in that neighborhood. Saying, "Let me show you a real man's gun," he reached into his briefcase. That's when the 10mm 1911 in his briefcase discharged, sending the bullet through the retired officer's leg and into the man he was visiting.
And I'm sure the 1911 in that briefcase fired without the hammer at full cock, the thumb safety being off, the grip safety being depressed and the trigger being pulled. Wonder it didn't take off down the hallway, killing everybody in the building.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
HOWEVER, Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer fully forward) is actually DANGEROUS. Should the hammer get snagged on something, drawn back to just short of the half-cock notch, then released, testing has shown that it can fire the cartridge at least three times out of five. Both the thumb safety and grip safety have been rendered useless when the pistol is in Condition Two.
No. Too stooopid. 1911 users are all in nursing homes. Besides you are way off on the danger of Condition two: the danger is simply thumb slip while manipulating the hammer.
Yes. I still would carry cocked and locked so the safety is of use. I don't want the hammer against the pin. I am mostly a SA hunter but all have a transfer bar or a block. The only ones I seen fail are the freedoms. Snag the hammer and if it drops the gun will fire. Worn, super complicated parts that I have had to fashion new from good tool steel to fix. Not nice to push a hammer and see the pin come out. Since I can't see the pin with the 1911 action closed and the hammer down, is the pin resting on the primer? What will happen if the gun drops and hits the hammer? Best design ever made with the grip safety included. Go back to movies where a ninja strips the slide off your gun????
HOWEVER, Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer fully forward) is actually DANGEROUS. Should the hammer get snagged on something, drawn back to just short of the half-cock notch, then released, testing has shown that it can fire the cartridge at least three times out of five. Both the thumb safety and grip safety have been rendered useless when the pistol is in Condition Two.
Since I can't see the pin with the 1911 action closed and the hammer down, is the pin resting on the primer? What will happen if the gun drops and hits the hammer?
In a properly made and assembled 1911, the firing pin is shorter than the tunnel in which it fits and is held to the rear by its spring. So, when the hammer is at rest against the firing pin, the pin is not long enough to reach the primer. The firing pin is designed and intended to reach the primer only when struck by a hammer blow with enough force to overcome the firing pin's inertia and the strength of the firing pin spring.
I'm not advocating Ranger Miller's adventurous mode of carry. If he used a holster, I don't know what that was.
But I have known some serious, battle proven gunmen; from WWII and Korea vets right on through the Sand Wars, plus a whole lot of mayhem in the streets. I can think of four who killed multiple antagonists with an issued or personally owned 1911. A couple of them carried that pistol condition two. Given their results, I'd be disinclined to tell them they were doing it wrong.
Sadly, they're all gone now; but it was old age that got them, not 'leg wounds' from poor pistol handling.
Being a seasoned lawman/gunfighter does not insulate one from the consequences of unsafe gun handling practices. Take, for instance, the story of the retired police officer from a major metropolitan department who claimed something like nine kills in the line of duty. As he was visiting with a man in the man's office, he suggested the man should keep a gun there for protection in that neighborhood. Saying, "Let me show you a real man's gun," he reached into his briefcase. That's when the 10mm 1911 in his briefcase discharged, sending the bullet through the retired officer's leg and into the man he was visiting.
I’d like to to read this story. I call BS. I can’t see any agency keeping a guy on the street who killed 9 people. That’s a gigantic liability for the agency.
This was a rather bossy U.S. Army Major who we were tasked with protecting. Long story short she thought she was pretty hot stuff and fully equal of any of the people who were on her protection detail. We ended up in a remote province at a place where the locals were only being friendly to our faces and there was no doubt they were insurgents once they were out of our sight.
This hot shot Major, who insisted that she was just as capable somehow managed to get roughly 80-100 miles from the main U.S. base without a magazine in her sidearm (her only weapon) and no spare mags. Basically she was totally incompetent.
Funny thing is, none of us had any spare mags for her, as we don't carry Berettas.
Another Big Army Classic!
First I was discreetly trying to get these soldiers attention. We had been loaned out to provide protection/overwatch (I won't go into detail why the conventional Army and others need to be protected...)
Anyways, I was trying to tell the blonde SGT shown in the center of the pic that they cannot just leave their weapons unattended in their vehicles, since were were in a small town in a province in a Iraq and they were just asking for the iraqi police to steal their weapons or have them used against them. It was not a matter of IF, it was only a matter of WHEN some Iraqi grabbed one.
I was trying to be discreet, so as not to embarrass her. She thought I was motioning for her, because I wanted to hit on her..
The other thing I wanted to tell her was that as an NCO she was not exactly setting a great example since her 82nd Airborne patch was on UPSIDE DOWN....
I think I will pass on getting my weapons training from the conventional Military...
Coffee and sandwiches...PERIOD
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
....But, in looking at comments, both here and elsewhere, concerning 1911 conditions of readiness, it becomes evident that many are not aware of the hazards associated with Condition Two carry. So, they cannot take them into account. That is something which can be fixed.
No. What you're missing is that the vast majority here are quite aware of the difference, but some are willing and competent enough to do it their way anyway. You ain't the first to state what has been discussed here many times - and nobody asked you. It appears to all that you believe you just made this discovery, and we need your enlightenment. Hence, our sarcasm.
And then my Detonics is /was recommended to carry in condition TWO. One in the pipe and hammer down, hence the rear sight moved forward so thumb can engage the hammer quickly. That's the way I've carried and seems to work well.
I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
And then my Detonics is /was recommended to carry in condition TWO. One in the pipe and hammer down, hence the rear sight moved forward so thumb can engage the hammer quickly. .
Maybe you should go find some 'receptive other sites', like chippy does, and spiritually offer that message. I'm sure folks want to know that kinda stuff, and you can build post counts at the same time. Win/win....
P.S...... and NEVER apologize. It's a sign of weakness.
i just watched last night a bunch of army types on a firing line being introduced to the sig M 17. I was kind of snickering at the shooting stance of most of them, and the way they were holding the pistola and fingering the trigger. Just cause someone is in the service or has been in the service does not mean they are much capable with a handgun or rifle. On of my relatives who is in a midlevel officers position when going through the officers version of bootcamp, i think fired one magazine out of a beretta. Same with another one in another branch, he got something like five rounds from a shotgun. pretty sad really.
i was sitting here thinking about this thread and something came to mind. i was watching a ccw renewal firing line one day, about ten guys on the line. one guy had a 1911 in a holster so but raked forward, the barrel was pointing out the back, and not immediately at the ground. Since i was behind him, i decided it was a good time to move. I have never in 50years had a 1911 go off unless i wanted it too. I normally carry one of two ways. if i don't percieve a threat, ti's condition three. If i am worried about something it's condition one, but with the addition of a retainer strap between the hammer and the frame. So you have basically three safties that way. With situational awareness i try to avoid those situations where i have to play matt dillon.
Interesting. I've owned/carried 1911s for 44 years, including better than 15 years of duty carry and have known a lot of 1911/Colt Delta packers in that time. I investigated a good number of actual and falsely reported 'accidental' shootings involving a host of firearms- but not one of them a 1911.
Typically, someone had recently purchased a new gun and were fondling and or dryfiring it when the discharge occurred. They usually eventually admitted they had reloaded the gun, forgot they had reloaded it and thought they were dryfiring an empty gun. My last (pre-retirement) LE position was at a 'base town' and unfortunately, the vast majority of ND's involved service members living off base in apartment complexes. This reinforced my belief in God and guardian angels because frequently, adjoining occupied apartments were perforated and the only injury was from bullet-shattered glass.
Firearms involved were primarily striker fired pistols and I noted the incidence of these 'thought it was unloaded' ND's increased after their introduction. But people can and do ND with single and double action revolvers, all manner of sporting shotguns and even the old Mosin-Nagant. The Mosin bellers loud enough to wake up neighbors and fortunately, that one went up through a porch roof.
I'm not calling you a liar Chippy but my opinion is that your experience vastly over-represents Condition Two NDs with the 1911, which resulted in injuries to a specific area of the body.
Your nicer than me. I don't believe Chippy for one second.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Back to our previously scheduled program of being preached to by yet another self appointed subject matter expert....
Is there another sport that attracts so many folks who feel the need to lecture/tell others "how it is" or "The one true way, etc, etc,?
BTW, if you don't carry your uber new plastic blaster in an appendix holster, while wearing tactical pants in "urban gray man, grey, (the holster and the pants MUST be endorsed by a coast guard celebrity trainer, who also markets sunglasses) then surely you will DIE in da Streetz!
It's the one true way!
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
i just watched last night a bunch of army types on a firing line being introduced to the sig M 17. I was kind of snickering at the shooting stance of most of them, and the way they were holding the pistola and fingering the trigger. Just cause someone is in the service or has been in the service does not mean they are much capable with a handgun or rifle. On of my relatives who is in a midlevel officers position when going through the officers version of bootcamp, i think fired one magazine out of a beretta. Same with another one in another branch, he got something like five rounds from a shotgun. pretty sad really.
It's a little different in this state. Our academe students fire closer to a thousand rounds.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Years ago I came across a story of a Swedish SOE operative working in Scandinavia during WWII.
Carried a concealed 1911 - occasionally used by SOE in Scandinavia - with one in the chamber and the hammer at full cock with the thumb safety off. He relied solely on the grip safety.
Worked for him. He survived the war.
All things are always on the move simultaneously. - W.S. Churchill
Is there another sport that attracts so many folks who feel the need to lecture/tell others "how it is" or "The one true way, etc, etc,?
Auto mechanics.
There’s a endless stream of knuckleheads who know a guy who knows a guy who fixes cars and he says......
Anyway. I pay pretty good attention to what you say, and Formy and Montana Marine, and John Burns and Stick and a few others and it seems to keep me in the right path.
On the other hand, my cousin’s uncle’s brother was an airborne Navy Ranger Pathfinder from SEAL Team 6, and he says....
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
HOWEVER, Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer fully forward) is actually DANGEROUS. Should the hammer get snagged on something, drawn back to just short of the half-cock notch, then released, testing has shown that it can fire the cartridge at least three times out of five. Both the thumb safety and grip safety have been rendered useless when the pistol is in Condition Two.
Since I can't see the pin with the 1911 action closed and the hammer down, is the pin resting on the primer? What will happen if the gun drops and hits the hammer?
In a properly made and assembled 1911, the firing pin is shorter than the tunnel in which it fits and is held to the rear by its spring. So, when the hammer is at rest against the firing pin, the pin is not long enough to reach the primer. The firing pin is designed and intended to reach the primer only when struck by a hammer blow with enough force to overcome the firing pin's inertia and the strength of the firing pin spring.
I carried a 1911 35 years before I was 60 and still carry them today . Does that count?
Yes
Carried my little 1911 Commander 45 ACP to town yesterday stoked with 200gr XTP's, Glock 21 stoked with fourteen 200gr Lehigh penetrators got nighttime duty, and is sitting here as I type this.
To all of you who have participated in this thread, particularly the skeptics and naysayers:
Please understand that I am at a distinct disadvantage when discussing the particulars raised in this thread, because I am not at liberty to say in print how it is I have come to know all that I have said here, or to provide further details.
However, if you should find yourself at the NRA Meeting and Exhibits in Indianapolis, and are willing to share an adult beverage or two with me, I will tell you the "rest of the story." You may find it worthwhile.
To all of you who have participated in this thread, particularly the skeptics and naysayers:
Please understand that I am at a distinct disadvantage when discussing the particulars raised in this thread, because I am not at liberty to say in print how it is I have come to know all that I have said here, or to provide further details.
However, if you should find yourself at the NRA Meeting and Exhibits in Indianapolis, and are willing to share an adult beverage or two with me, I will tell you the "rest of the story." You may find it worthwhile.
Anyone interested?
Don't worry. Should I receive any messages accepting my offer, I will not disclose them. Not in this hostile environment.
You don't know even ONE Texas Ranger, do you? (MOST of our Rangers carry a PAIR of 1911 pistols.)
And YEP, our Rangers are just as dedicated/tough/deadly as their legend says that they are. (ALL that bothers me in 2019 about the Rangers is that to me, at 72YY, they mostly look too young to BE a Ranger. = Old age ain't for sissies.)
yours, tex
Last edited by satx78247; 04/09/19. Reason: add
"VICTORY OR DEATH"
William Barrett Travis, Lt.Col., comdt. Fortress of The Alamo, Bejar F'by 24, 1836
Pardon me for saying that you are WRONG. - Many or most of us old soldiers, sailors, LEOs, Marines, USAF vets, etc. have MANY things that we cannot talk about. - Personally, I prefer saying, "I cannot talk about that." or "no comment" to saying "NOYFB",which is the other obvious alternative. (I've been retired since 2006 & I still cannot discuss any number of diverse subjects from my AD era, even though it was long ago.)
MANY of us "old-timers" still cannot reveal where/when/in what job (and in some cases, not even what our MOS/AFSC & "job title" was) that we served because "NDA" have no expiration date.. - I know of a case where a former E-7 was "visited by government agents" & "strongly cautioned" for talking about his usual duties in "a place far away" & more than 5 years before. (It just so happens that I was stationed in that area & as far as I know NOTHING very sensitive, much less classified, was being done by any of the "allied forces training group" members.)
yours, tex
Last edited by satx78247; 04/10/19. Reason: clarity
"VICTORY OR DEATH"
William Barrett Travis, Lt.Col., comdt. Fortress of The Alamo, Bejar F'by 24, 1836
Or says, "I'm not at liberty to say..." because they want to appear to be something they never were.
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
ExC, I of course no nothing of your service, but, did learn from my Gramps [1940-1981, WW-II, Kor, Viet] who retired a roguey old ornery E-9 SGM that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked on a loaded chamber was the way they should be carried if you figure on using the damn thing. he had just retrieved it and it's leather holster from an old cedar chest of drawers, iirc it was a Colt or Springfield 45 ACP, his issue pistol.
I was 8 or 9 years old in Gramps' bedroom standing at his gun cabinets when that lesson was taught, he then swung his old big hand pointing across his rack of guns, M-1's, 30-06's and 30-30 hunting rifles, with a brace of 12 and 20 gauge shotguns, as well as his dads old '94 32-40 WCF, he reached down and pinched my chin pulling my face up, looked me dead in the eyes and said, "every weapon here is loaded, don't EVER! touch them" you want to shoot, come get me, and we'll go shoot! yessir I squeaked.
Something about lessons taught like that are NEVER forgotten, and that was near 50 years ago.
ExC, I of course no nothing of your service, but, did learn from my Gramps [1940-1981, WW-II, Kor, Viet] who retired a roguey old ornery E-9 SGM that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked on a loaded chamber was the way they should be carried if you figure on using the damn thing. he had just retrieved it and it's leather holster from an old cedar chest of drawers, iirc it was a Colt or Springfield 45 ACP, his issue pistol.
I was 8 or 9 years old in Gramps' bedroom standing at his gun cabinets when that lesson was taught, he then swung his old big hand pointing across his rack of guns, M-1's, 30-06's and 30-30 hunting rifles, with a brace of 12 and 20 gauge shotguns, as well as his dads old '94 32-40 WCF, he reached down and pinched my chin pulling my face up, looked me dead in the eyes and said, "every weapon here is loaded, don't EVER! touch them" you want to shoot, come get me, and we'll go shoot! yessir I squeaked.
Something about lessons taught like that are NEVER forgotten, and that was near 50 years ago.
ExC, I of course no nothing of your service, but, did learn from my Gramps [1940-1981, WW-II, Kor, Viet] who retired a roguey old ornery E-9 SGM that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked on a loaded chamber was the way they should be carried if you figure on using the damn thing. he had just retrieved it and it's leather holster from an old cedar chest of drawers, iirc it was a Colt or Springfield 45 ACP, his issue pistol.
I was 8 or 9 years old in Gramps' bedroom standing at his gun cabinets when that lesson was taught, he then swung his old big hand pointing across his rack of guns, M-1's, 30-06's and 30-30 hunting rifles, with a brace of 12 and 20 gauge shotguns, as well as his dads old '94 32-40 WCF, he reached down and pinched my chin pulling my face up, looked me dead in the eyes and said, "every weapon here is loaded, don't EVER! touch them" you want to shoot, come get me, and we'll go shoot! yessir I squeaked.
Something about lessons taught like that are NEVER forgotten, and that was near 50 years ago.
I can't imagine you ever squeaking lmao!
OH CHIT Buddy, I went weak in the knees, I was face to face with the Devil.
Pardon me for saying that you are WRONG. - Many or most of us old soldiers, sailors, LEOs, Marines, USAF vets, etc. have MANY things that we cannot talk about. - Personally, I prefer say, "I cannot talk about that." or "no comment" to saying "NOYFB",which is the other obvious alternative. (I've been retired since 2006 & I still cannot discuss any number of diverse subjects from my AD era, even though it was long ago.)
MANY of us "old-timers" still cannot reveal where/when/in what job (and in some cases, not even what our MOS/AFSC & "job title" was) that we served because "NDA" have no expiration date.. - I know of a case where a former E-7 was "visited by government agents" & "strongly cautioned" for talking about his usual duties in "a place far away" & more than 5 years before. (It just so happens that I was stationed in that area & as far as I know NOTHING very sensitive, much less classified, was being done by any of the "allied forces training group" members.)
yours, tex
You missed my point , but made yours .. it’s ok . I somewhat agree with you . But I’m far from WRONG.
OP just wants to feel special , therefore he’s gonna hint that he’s some operative then shut it down with “not at liberty to say “ , because there probably nothing TO say .
Rabid Creedmoorians ring my doorbell ... as I open it a crack they speak : "Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior , 6.5Creed?"
Sounds like your grandfather KNEW how to get a young boy's attention. = FYI, my grandfather said something similar to me when I was about 8YO.
Comment: My grandfather passed away in 1962. SADLY, I must tell you that I doubt that hardly any young boys will see the equal of your grandfather or mine. = They seem to all be gone now.- Such men really were "the GREATEST generation". (Fwiw, my grandfather was born in 1873 & was a survivor of the last Comanche Murder Raid into Northeast Texas. - He was about "a babe at the breast" at the time.)
Btw, when I was 12YO he gave me a 12-gauge single barrel "Long Tom" so that I "could hunt with the men". I felt VERY "grown up" that day. (As it's nothing more than a "hardware store shotgun" by RIVER ARMS of MS, I seriously doubt that I could sell that old shotgun for more than 20 bucks but money wouldn't buy it, as it was once his & now mine. = It's PRICELESS & in my will.) I'll never forget what my mother said when I came home carrying it, "Daddy, you didn't give that CHILD a REAL gun, did you? PLEASE tell me that you didn't." - My grandfather said, "Glynn, I gave it to him because he's going to hunt with the men. He's plenty old enough to hunt. This is men's business." (As my Grandfather was THE family patriarch, Mother said nothing else about it & I got to keep MY gun. - It's one of my few TREASURES.)
yours, tex
Last edited by satx78247; 04/10/19. Reason: grammar/spelling errors
"VICTORY OR DEATH"
William Barrett Travis, Lt.Col., comdt. Fortress of The Alamo, Bejar F'by 24, 1836
ExC, I of course no nothing of your service, but, did learn from my Gramps [1940-1981, WW-II, Kor, Viet] who retired a roguey old ornery E-9 SGM that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked on a loaded chamber was the way they should be carried if you figure on using the damn thing. he had just retrieved it and it's leather holster from an old cedar chest of drawers, iirc it was a Colt or Springfield 45 ACP, his issue pistol.
I was 8 or 9 years old in Gramps' bedroom standing at his gun cabinets when that lesson was taught, he then swung his old big hand pointing across his rack of guns, M-1's, 30-06's and 30-30 hunting rifles, with a brace of 12 and 20 gauge shotguns, as well as his dads old '94 32-40 WCF, he reached down and pinched my chin pulling my face up, looked me dead in the eyes and said, "every weapon here is loaded, don't EVER! touch them" you want to shoot, come get me, and we'll go shoot! yessir I squeaked.
Something about lessons taught like that are NEVER forgotten, and that was near 50 years ago.
LMAO! My four boys got the same treatment. Three of them grew up to be career cops or soldiers and thus far, haven't shot anybody that didn't need shootin'. .
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
To me, SHOW, rather than TELL me, what a CF rifle will DO if used carelessly, my grandfather set a gallon "tin" can of ketchup on top of a fencepost & shot it with my "new to me" deer-rifle when I was just 14YO & not long before his passing.
WOW!!, was all that I could think to say, when the ketchup (the COLOR of fresh blood, btw) went all over the yard. - The "tin" can EXPLODED.
yours, tex
"VICTORY OR DEATH"
William Barrett Travis, Lt.Col., comdt. Fortress of The Alamo, Bejar F'by 24, 1836
I've never understood why a person brings up a subject just to say "I'm not at liberty to say....whatever."
If you all were to re-read what I actually wrote about what I'm not at liberty to do, you would find that it was: "I am at a distinct disadvantage when discussing the particulars raised in this thread, because I am not at liberty to say in print how it is I have come to know all that I have said here, or to provide further details." I realize that this can leave me looking like a BS artist to those who don't pay close attention to what they read.
But, notice the words, "particulars raised" and "in print." Those words are important. The subject I originally brought up was Cocked-and-Locked versus variations of Condition Two, and the risks associated with carrying in Condition Two. The "particulars raised" were the supporting statistics and the (intentionally vague but still illustrative) examples, the surrounding details of which are revealing but sensitive. While I am at liberty to verbally discuss those details, "I am not at liberty to say in print how it is I have come to know all that I have said here, or to provide further details" beyond what I have already written. Accept that, or not.
If you should have some interest in hearing additional details, and how it is I know them, there is always NRA Indianapolis later this month. The offer remains open.
What is it that you are sharing is exciting and/or new information? The 1911 has been around for a long time. The manual of arms for the 1911 got worked out a long time ago. Your original post wasn't exactly a set of stone tablets in a burning bush. You don't have to be a super secret squirrel ninja to know anything that you have posted so the cloak and dagger thing just comes off as ridiculous.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
ExC, I of course no nothing of your service, but, did learn from my Gramps [1940-1981, WW-II, Kor, Viet] who retired a roguey old ornery E-9 SGM that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked on a loaded chamber was the way they should be carried if you figure on using the damn thing. he had just retrieved it and it's leather holster from an old cedar chest of drawers, iirc it was a Colt or Springfield 45 ACP, his issue pistol.
I was 8 or 9 years old in Gramps' bedroom standing at his gun cabinets when that lesson was taught, he then swung his old big hand pointing across his rack of guns, M-1's, 30-06's and 30-30 hunting rifles, with a brace of 12 and 20 gauge shotguns, as well as his dads old '94 32-40 WCF, he reached down and pinched my chin pulling my face up, looked me dead in the eyes and said, "every weapon here is loaded, don't EVER! touch them" you want to shoot, come get me, and we'll go shoot! yessir I squeaked.
Something about lessons taught like that are NEVER forgotten, and that was near 50 years ago.
Please feel free to repost this message wherever you can. It must be repeated again and again, until it reaches every 1911 pistol user.
It reached every 1911 user about 30 years ago.
... except maybe for those rocket surgeons who, in more recent years, have shot themselves through ignorance, and the others who I fear are yet to follow them.
they were using glocks
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Pardon me for saying that you are WRONG. - Many or most of us old soldiers, sailors, LEOs, Marines, USAF vets, etc. have MANY things that we cannot talk about. - Personally, I prefer saying, "I cannot talk about that." or "no comment" to saying "NOYFB",which is the other obvious alternative. (I've been retired since 2006 & I still cannot discuss any number of diverse subjects from my AD era, even though it was long ago.)
MANY of us "old-timers" still cannot reveal where/when/in what job (and in some cases, not even what our MOS/AFSC & "job title" was) that we served because "NDA" have no expiration date.. - I know of a case where a former E-7 was "visited by government agents" & "strongly cautioned" for talking about his usual duties in "a place far away" & more than 5 years before. (It just so happens that I was stationed in that area & as far as I know NOTHING very sensitive, much less classified, was being done by any of the "allied forces training group" members.)
yours, tex
i always say, if i told you about that, i would next have to call a number at the FBI and you and i would have very intense conversations for the next 2 weeks with several MIB.
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
I want to be the first to guess "Raisuli". Not real confident at this stage but starting to get a whiff so it's worth a flyer.
I am beginning to think Rufus may be right, as this is guy is starting to walk like a duck.
This whole "I have super secret information" is absolute and utter bullschidt, as we all know, but it is getting him the attention he seeks.
I don't know if he is pretending to be "Ponch" or "John" riding around playing 1970s highway patrol, and it really does not matter, as I never knew them to be the holders of any secret squirrel info, and there was never anything special about that agency anyway.
Rufus may be right, and another one of our "special children" may be back.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
Hello Tex, Yessir, it was a different time and way when we grew up, I heavily lament it's passing.
SargeMo, I can tell by reading you here the you done a hell of a job with those boys, Congrats on the hard work and proper steering, it has to make a man proud.
OEH, LOL, Yes Sir, I had the luxury of being reared in a 100% bullchit free environment, was tough as hell at times, but yes, after that, everything else in life that happened by is cake compared to that! Those guys, Gramps, Uncles and Dad knew exactly what they were doing getting a boy ready to be a man.
I'm shocked by the photographic examples given by MS. Saddened that a dickhead would have Marines sit outside and eat because they would not be separated from their weapons, and convinced that whatever garbage the Army is calling handgun training for the rank and file is woefully inadequate.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
I remember sitting in a classroom and having a instructor throw a cocked 1911 across the room to show us how safe it was. I watched a sgt shoot a steer between the eyes to put it out of its misery after being hit by a Dodge. (Open range) I like a 1911 because of memories. I like revolvers because it is easy to find the brass after the deed is done.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
I'm not a condition 2 guy. I don't even carry a 1911 regularly. But, If Charlie Miller and a bunch of Texas Rangers think condition 2 is the way to go, I say to each his own.
Charlie Miller: A Unique Ranger Jim Wilson - September 23, 2010 Charlie Miller: A Unique Ranger By Sheriff Jim Wilson, ,Handgun Editor I like to search the history of the American West for real characters. And nowhere can more of those characters be found than in the rosters of the Texas Rangers. For most of its history the Texas Ranger Service has attracted individuals, talented shootists, and pure-bred characters like no other law enforcement outfit. And among the files of the Rangers none of them stands out like Charles Edward Miller.
Miller is supposed to have been born in Frio County, Texas, in June 1898. However, some authorities think that he may have been born much earlier than this, possibly as early as 1880. You see, in later years, when he reached the mandatory retirement age of the Texas Rangers, Miller came up with a corrected birth certificate that made him a little younger, and they kept him on for a few more years. Some of the older Rangers swear that Miller pulled this stunt on two different occasions and was actually closer to 80 years old when he finally was retired from the Ranger Service.
We do know that Miller enlisted in the Texas Rangers for the first time in December 1919, going to work for Captain Davis at Del Rio. Prior to that he had been a deputy sheriff at San Antonio. And in about 1921 he was sent out to Presidio to replace Lee Trimble when Lee got shot from ambush and needed time to recuperate. Except for some 11 months, Miller would serve as a Texas Ranger for over 50 years. That 11-month lapse in his service was the time when he decided to chase a better paycheck and quit the Rangers in favor of the U. S. Prohibition Service. Along with Lone Wolf Gonzaullas and other ex-Rangers, Charlie spent his time chasing bootleggers and liquor smugglers and closing down speakeasies. However, Charlie was an outdoorsman and he got tired of running around the big cities playing cocktail cop; he soon turned in his federal badge and went back to the Rangers.
By 1923 Miller was a Ranger in Headquarters Company, commanded by the famous Captain Frank Hamer. In those days Captain Hamer used the men of Headquarters Company as sort of troubleshooters. These Rangers were the cream of the crop and were sent out on special detail and assignments wherever their extra talents were needed. Rangers Dan Westbrook and Lee Trimble, who knew Miller back in those days, told me that Miller fit right in with Hamer's idea of what a good officer ought to be.
WHAT A GOOD OFFICER SHOULD BE In 1932 Miriam A. Ferguson was elected governor of Texas. Her husband had already been impeached and removed from the governor's office, so he ran his wife for the job. Caught in the grips of the Great Depression, the people of Texas elected her. In retrospect, Mrs. Ferguson turned out to be one of the best governors that money could buy. In no time at all, she fired every one of the good Rangers and replaced them with political appointees,ex-bartenders, and other sorry trash. However, packing a Ranger badge was not over for Miller. The Schreiner family at Kerrville, Texas, hired Charlie as a Special Texas Ranger to be in charge of security on their various ranching operations, which included the famed YO Ranch. For nearly 20 years Miller worked security for the Schreiner family and protected their property and interests. During that time he encountered a pair of game poachers and trespassers who thought they could come and go on the ranch with immunity. They even got so bold as to try to ambush a game warden. The next time they laid a trap for the game warden, they caught Miller in it instead. At least one of the game violators died in the short, hot little gunfight that followed.
Miller's Colt M1911 In 1951 Miller reinstated back into the regular Ranger force and went to work for Captain A. Y. Allee down in the Rio Grande Valley of South Texas. In later years I was with Captain Allee when they put one of Miller's pistols into the Texas Ranger Museum at Waco. Allee always spoke very highly of Miller, and I remember him telling me that he suspected that Miller had probably killed seven or eight men during his career and, according to Allee, had been well justified in every case. However, when our friend Ben Choate said he wished that Miller's old 1911 could talk, Allee turned a little pale, shook his head, and said, "Oh no, boys, oh no!"
One time, probably back in the '50s, Miller and a bunch of other Rangers got called into the main DPS headquarters for some firearms training. Now you can imagine Miller walking around in his white shirt and khaki britches with his rather pronounced belly sticking out over the grip of his 1911 on halfcock with the safety tied down and all. One of the young firearms instructors finally just couldn't stand it any longer and walked up to Miller and asked, "Mr. Miller, isn't that thing dangerous?" Charlie just glanced up at the boy, the way your banker does when you're trying to borrow money and said, "Son, if the damned old thing wasn't dangerous, I wouldn't be wearing it!"
Another time Ranger Miller entered a cafe near the banks of the Rio Grande and asked for a cup of coffee. Unfortunately, the family that owned the cafe had gotten out of sorts with the Rangers so none of them would wait on Miller. Charlie asked again for service, as nicely as he knew how, and was again ignored. Well, Miller could see that they were undoubtedly busy, as well as being a bit ill-mannered, so he just helped himself. He produced his old 1911 and shot a hole in the metal coffee urn that sat on the bar behind the lunch counter. Getting a cup and saucer, Charlie got his coffee and enjoyed its refreshment. They say that cafe pretty well emptied out as folks suddenly remembered the various pieces of pressing business they had. They say that the head of the Texas Rangers, when he stopped laughing, gave Ranger Miller a few days of disciplinary leave.
My last Charlie Miller tale is one that if it isn't true, it ought to be. And it involves a gunfight right down on the banks of the Rio Grande. Charlie was after an outlaw and caught up with him in the vega of the river, in Val Verde County just south of the area where I used to serve as sheriff. In a flurry of action the Ranger and the outlaw wounded each other. As he lay in the brush, Miller called over to his assailant and told him that he knew they were both wounded. Miller suggested that they stand up and finish this fight like men so that one of them could get to a doctor. In later years Miller would just shake his head and state, "And you know what? That damned fool actually stood up!"
The wheels of bureaucracy and the various birth certificates caught up with Miller in 1968, and he was retired from the Texas Rangers at a fancy party on the Schreiner's YO Ranch. My friend Bob Favor replaced Miller in Brady, Texas, and Charlie retired to a life of looking after his few good horses. The old warrior passed away in 1971.
According to those who knew him, Miller represented the best of the entire Texas Ranger force. Dan Westbrook, Lee Trimble, A. Y. Allee, and Bob Favor all remember him as a great Ranger who was a great officer and toug
her than the toughest outlaws ever thought about being. He was instrumental in getting the Texas Rangers to consider the Colt 1911 pistol as a serious law enforcement firearm, and the pistol was standard carry for most Rangers long before it became so popular among the action-shooting crowd.
Butch Purvis, whose father and grandfather were Rangers, remembers Miller coming to their home and putting on shooting demonstrations with his 1911 and his .357 Magnum revolver. More especially, Butch remembers how kind Charlie was to every child and how friendly he was to the good citizens of Texas. There was no SWAT-team mentality in Miller's makeup. He was just proud to be a Texas Ranger and was able to cover the ground that he stood on.
Last edited by local_dirt; 04/16/19.
Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want.
I'm going to tell a story on myself here. Back in the early 90s I went to a LE refresher course that included a bit of shooting on an indoor range. The instructor was a big model 59 S&W guy and like a lot of them, thought nobody should be carrying anything else. I showed up with a 1945 Ithaca 1911 and he about peed down his leg.
He had first insisted that I go back to my agency and borrow a d a auto to run the course with. I told him I had paid my tuition and to go pack sand, a 1911 was what I. Carried and a 1911 was what I was going to shoot. I knew my Sheriff would back me up on that. Anyway after much pissing and moaning he agreed to let me shoot my obsoleto War Horse on his course but insisted that I start each stage from The holster in condition 2. I said your game your rules, I'll do it.
So I shot their whole damn course from condition 2 from The holster. Clean their damn clocks too , by about 25 points. And when that class was over I had the pleasure of doing an evaluation sheet on the dumbass which is exactly what I painted him to be. I said anybody who would require a 1911 shooter to begin each course of fire from condition 2, didn't have any business teaching firearms.
Ass clown didn't like me much after that needless to say.
Last edited by SargeMO; 04/16/19. Reason: Clarity
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
I find it interesting the sheer numbers of "experts" who insist that a person do something their way, as if it is the only way. Their dogma is the only dogma, and anyone else is doing it wrong. Muzzle up, vs down, Appendix carry vs OWB, 1911s vs Glock, it doesn't matter.
Slight Derail..
How about the retarded "safety circle" dance steps that the NRA was teaching? At the first ever NRA LE tactical shooting Instructor course,(you had to already be an instructor in multiple disciplines to attend) where we were asked for feed back, they were none too happy when I told them that I thought it was freaking stupid to be teaching the dance, pivot step moves that have now become a commonly seen part of range theatrics.
My train of thought was that we barely had enough time to teach troops to be safe and competent shooters, with our ammo and range time budgets constantly being cut, in favor of other administrative nonsense, so why were we teaching stupid pivots and dance moves.
Guys were simply going through the motion and not actually seeing anything anyways. They were doing it to look cool, and not seeing a dang thing. I suggested that they simply observed their surroundings while keeping their gun pointed in a safe direction. Not doing exaggerated dance steps that did literally nothing but look good for unknowing admin types. But even the name "safety circle" sounds great to ignorant admin type who never were switched on street cops. admin types loved the dance steps because is sounded safe and looked cool though, so the dumb crap got adopted...
There is more than one way to do things. If someone wants to shoot Weaver or Isosceles, or some combination/variation, fine by me.
If someone wants to carry their 1911 other than cocked and locked, Not my circus, not my monkeys. There is no super secret data that the government is holding back in regards to people "dying in the streets" because they carried a 1911 in condition 2. That is pure BS. Plain and simple.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
For my part, I carry cocked and locked. Always have. But I have shot, carried field stripped, changed mags, etc. for so long, I could literally do it blindfolded. First thing my gun hand goes to when I draw a 1911 is the safety. It's automatic.
There's lots of talk about Texas Rangers here. If Charlie Miller was successful the way he carried one, then I'd call that the end of the discussion.
I have known many Texas Rangers and worked with them. I never knew one to carry anything but a single 1911. They carry them cocked and locked.
A friend of mine is the last Texas Ranger killed in the line of duty. He carried a 1911... cocked and locked. That didn't add to his being shot. A poorly thought through plan of rescue of a kidnapped girl, and a lucky shot by the bad guy is what killed Stan.
In a nutshell, a bad guy kidnapped a little girl in Horseshoe Bay. He entered the house and killed the maid/nanny... (I dated her some. Pretty little redhead girl)
My friend, Stan Guffy and another Ranger, Aycock, took the back seat out of a Crown Vic and got back there, hunched down. The car was delivered to the house as a getaway vehicle for the bad guy.
When the bad guy came out with the little girl, Stan and Aycock sprang out of the back seat. Stan hollered "Texas Rangers! Drop the gun!" The bad guy fired instantly, and hit Stan between the eyes with a .44 magnum. Ranger Aycock instantly shot and killed the bad guy. But it was too late for Stan. He was dead before he hit the ground. Stan should have just got out, and shot the bad guy...
The little girl was saved. Her last name was Whitehead. Their family were a big money ranching family. Raised Herefords. But, it seems that sometimes a person isn't intended to live long enough to grow up...
That little girl and her parents were killed when the private airplane her dad was flying crashed and killed them all a few years later.
Sorry to ramble... But some may find that story interesting.
For my part, I carry cocked and locked. Always have. But I have shot, carried field stripped, changed mags, etc. for so long, I could literally do it blindfolded. First thing my gun hand goes to when I draw a 1911 is the safety. It's automatic.
There's lots of talk about Texas Rangers here. If Charlie Miller was successful the way he carried one, then I'd call that the end of the discussion.
I have known many Texas Rangers and worked with them. I never knew one to carry anything but a single 1911. They carry them cocked and locked.
A friend of mine is the last Texas Ranger killed in the line of duty. He carried a 1911... cocked and locked. That didn't add to his being shot. A poorly thought through plan of rescue of a kidnapped girl, and a lucky shot by the bad guy is what killed Stan.
In a nutshell, a bad guy kidnapped a little girl in Horseshoe Bay. He entered the house and killed the maid/nanny... (I dated her some. Pretty little redhead girl)
My friend, Stan Guffy and another Ranger, Aycock, took the back seat out of a Crown Vic and got back there, hunched down. The car was delivered to the house as a getaway vehicle for the bad guy.
When the bad guy came out with the little girl, Stan and Aycock sprang out of the back seat. Stan hollered "Texas Rangers! Drop the gun!" The bad guy fired instantly, and hit Stan between the eyes with a .44 magnum. Ranger Aycock instantly shot and killed the bad guy. But it was too late for Stan. He was dead before he hit the ground. Stan should have just got out, and shot the bad guy...
The little girl was saved. Her last name was Whitehead. Their family were a big money ranching family. Raised Herefords. But, it seems that sometimes a person isn't intended to live long enough to grow up...
That little girl and her parents were killed when the private airplane her dad was flying crashed and killed them all a few years later.
Sorry to ramble... But some may find that story interesting.
I read a version of that story in Joaquin Jackson's book. Ballsy plan. Sorry that your friend was killed, but he had rollers of steel for putting himself in the middle of that rescue.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
For my part, I carry cocked and locked. Always have. But I have shot, carried field stripped, changed mags, etc. for so long, I could literally do it blindfolded. First thing my gun hand goes to when I draw a 1911 is the safety. It's automatic.
There's lots of talk about Texas Rangers here. If Charlie Miller was successful the way he carried one, then I'd call that the end of the discussion.
I have known many Texas Rangers and worked with them. I never knew one to carry anything but a single 1911. They carry them cocked and locked.
A friend of mine is the last Texas Ranger killed in the line of duty. He carried a 1911... cocked and locked. That didn't add to his being shot. A poorly thought through plan of rescue of a kidnapped girl, and a lucky shot by the bad guy is what killed Stan.
In a nutshell, a bad guy kidnapped a little girl in Horseshoe Bay. He entered the house and killed the maid/nanny... (I dated her some. Pretty little redhead girl)
My friend, Stan Guffy and another Ranger, Aycock, took the back seat out of a Crown Vic and got back there, hunched down. The car was delivered to the house as a getaway vehicle for the bad guy.
When the bad guy came out with the little girl, Stan and Aycock sprang out of the back seat. Stan hollered "Texas Rangers! Drop the gun!" The bad guy fired instantly, and hit Stan between the eyes with a .44 magnum. Ranger Aycock instantly shot and killed the bad guy. But it was too late for Stan. He was dead before he hit the ground. Stan should have just got out, and shot the bad guy...
The little girl was saved. Her last name was Whitehead. Their family were a big money ranching family. Raised Herefords. But, it seems that sometimes a person isn't intended to live long enough to grow up...
That little girl and her parents were killed when the private airplane her dad was flying crashed and killed them all a few years later.
Sorry to ramble... But some may find that story interesting.
I remember reading about that and also about that family getting killed in the plain crash too. Bad deal!
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
For my part, I carry cocked and locked. Always have. But I have shot, carried field stripped, changed mags, etc. for so long, I could literally do it blindfolded. First thing my gun hand goes to when I draw a 1911 is the safety. It's automatic.
There's lots of talk about Texas Rangers here. If Charlie Miller was successful the way he carried one, then I'd call that the end of the discussion.
I have known many Texas Rangers and worked with them. I never knew one to carry anything but a single 1911. They carry them cocked and locked.
A friend of mine is the last Texas Ranger killed in the line of duty. He carried a 1911... cocked and locked. That didn't add to his being shot. A poorly thought through plan of rescue of a kidnapped girl, and a lucky shot by the bad guy is what killed Stan.
In a nutshell, a bad guy kidnapped a little girl in Horseshoe Bay. He entered the house and killed the maid/nanny... (I dated her some. Pretty little redhead girl)
My friend, Stan Guffy and another Ranger, Aycock, took the back seat out of a Crown Vic and got back there, hunched down. The car was delivered to the house as a getaway vehicle for the bad guy.
When the bad guy came out with the little girl, Stan and Aycock sprang out of the back seat. Stan hollered "Texas Rangers! Drop the gun!" The bad guy fired instantly, and hit Stan between the eyes with a .44 magnum. Ranger Aycock instantly shot and killed the bad guy. But it was too late for Stan. He was dead before he hit the ground. Stan should have just got out, and shot the bad guy...
The little girl was saved. Her last name was Whitehead. Their family were a big money ranching family. Raised Herefords. But, it seems that sometimes a person isn't intended to live long enough to grow up...
That little girl and her parents were killed when the private airplane her dad was flying crashed and killed them all a few years later.
Sorry to ramble... But some may find that story interesting.
I read a version of that story in Joaquin Jackson's book. Ballsy plan. Sorry that your friend was killed, but he had rollers of steel for putting himself in the middle of that rescue.
I knew and worked with Joaquin Jackson too.
While he was still a Ranger, and not a gun control fanatic.
This was a rather bossy U.S. Army Major who we were tasked with protecting. Long story short she thought she was pretty hot stuff and fully equal of any of the people who were on her protection detail. We ended up in a remote province at a place where the locals were only being friendly to our faces and there was no doubt they were insurgents once they were out of our sight.
This hot shot Major, who insisted that she was just as capable somehow managed to get roughly 80-100 miles from the main U.S. base without a magazine in her sidearm (her only weapon) and no spare mags. Basically she was totally incompetent.
Funny thing is, none of us had any spare mags for her, as we don't carry Berettas.
Another Big Army Classic!
First I was discreetly trying to get these soldiers attention. We had been loaned out to provide protection/overwatch (I won't go into detail why the conventional Army and others need to be protected...)
Anyways, I was trying to tell the blonde SGT shown in the center of the pic that they cannot just leave their weapons unattended in their vehicles, since were were in a small town in a province in a Iraq and they were just asking for the iraqi police to steal their weapons or have them used against them. It was not a matter of IF, it was only a matter of WHEN some Iraqi grabbed one.
I was trying to be discreet, so as not to embarrass her. She thought I was motioning for her, because I wanted to hit on her..
The other thing I wanted to tell her was that as an NCO she was not exactly setting a great example since her 82nd Airborne patch was on UPSIDE DOWN....
I think I will pass on getting my weapons training from the conventional Military...
Military-Intelligence at work... Mac, you have a keen eye for weapon stupidity’s 😎
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog “Molon Labe”
I believe its a manner of holding your firearm at the ready as you move and percieve threats
Gun tight to chest, elbows at 45, muzzle down.
Trump HAD the World, ", Trump saw our children, " Trump saw a way to make a brighter day so he started giving There was a choice he was making, he was saving our own lives Its true he made a brighter day for you and me. --Trump WINS 2016
OR you could do something novel and use your brain and THINK!
Don't point your gun at things you don't want to put holes in.
The lead instructor from my old outfit, who came from a special mission unit, summed it up perfectly. He said "We need Thinkers who are Shooters and Shooters who are Thinkers."
It is as simple as that.
Use your brain. No fugging dance steps, or putting your thumbs together to try to look high speed (because you look like a trained [bleep] IMNSHO).
I don't know how many times over the years I have used that phrase: "We need Thinkers who are Shooters and Shooters who are Thinkers".
It really gets right to the point, and even today when I am looking for a new shooter to hire for the organization I work for, I am really looking for that balance.
The bottom line is, you don't need to put your thumbs together "just so", you don't need to do pivots or twirls, while looking over your shoulder at imaginary bad guys.
You just need to use you brain and skip the theatrics
Sadly though, theatrics sell classes, and people have a hard time separating what is essentially live action role playing (AKA LARPing) from reality.
Plus some people think if they are pivoting and twirling that others will think that they are "switched on". Personally I think you look like moron.
That could be a whole other discussion though.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
Sul isn't an acronym, it's a Portugese (I think) word for "south", meaning "down" in this context. It's just a ready position that holds the muzzle pointing down.
Sul isn't an acronym, it's a Portugese (I think) word for "south", meaning "down" in this context. It's just a ready position that holds the muzzle pointing down.
Sul isn't an acronym, it's a Portugese (I think) word for "south", meaning "down" in this context. It's just a ready position that holds the muzzle pointing down.
....And we can't just call it, "down"?
Thanks for the explanation.
NOPE.
Can't just say "point your muzzle in a safe direction" , or anything like that or something really novel such as "Follow basic safety rules and don't point your weapon at stuff you don't want to shoot."
We have to come up with catchy crap like "SUL" and "Safety Circle" for people who like catchy buzz words.
Again,
Think.
That really is the key to it all.
Use that safety device that is between the ears.
" Thinkers who are shooters..
As always though, mileage may vary..
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
I know I am getting old because I remember when Cops didn't have earrings or tattoos. Semi automatic pistols never fed well with anything besides FMJ either.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
When I attended GUNSITE many years ago, the first day of class, the first thing Jeff Cooper mentioned were the Four Rules of Firearms, the first rule being, "Never point the muzzle of your pistol at anything you are not willing to destroy."
Seemed like good advice to me.
L.W.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." (William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830s.)
HOWEVER, Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer fully forward) is actually DANGEROUS. Should the hammer get snagged on something, drawn back to just short of the half-cock notch, then released, testing has shown that it can fire the cartridge at least three times out of five. Both the thumb safety and grip safety have been rendered useless when the pistol is in Condition Two.
An UNSAFE variation of Condition Two involves using the hammer's half-cock notch (sometimes misleadingly called a "safety notch") instead of lowering the hammer fully forward. Again, the thumb safety and grip safety are rendered useless. The DANGER comes from what is known as a FALSE HALF-COCK, which is created when both the hammer and trigger are clumsily manipulated simultaneously while attempting to lower the hammer into the half-cock notch, such that the tip of the half-cock notch gets precariously balanced on the tip of the sear. Then, a slight jarring of the pistol can cause the hammer to fall the rest of the way and fire the cartridge. This is not theoretical; it has happened.
. . .
I'm late to this party, but I did read the entire thread (which had some damn good Texas Ranger stories in it!) I'd really like to see the source for the tests highlighted. I'm pretty sure they aren't classified, so whoever has the source should be at liberty to say.
Anyone who was ever properly taught how to manipulate an older Winchester lever gun should be able to put a hammer gun correctly in half-cock, as that is the only reasonable way to carry one of those with a round chambered. I find it interesting the OP seems to say Condition 2 is "always" unsafe, or at least DANGEROUS, then points out yet another "UNSAFE" variation of Condition 2.
Edit to add: There do seem to be some situations where Condition 2 makes sense. In general, I'd personally prefer it to half-cock, but with some hammer and grip safety shapes, half cock might be a better position from which to manipulate the hardware to get the pistol cocked. Apparently, half-cock worked best for Charlie Miller?
Edit again to add: The guy I trust the most concerning the 1911 is a man named John Travis, who goes on many forums as "1911 Tuner." He knows a lot and explains himself well.
Last edited by GunDoc7; 05/05/19.
Clinging to guns & religion since 1959
Keyboards make people braver than alcohol
Election Integrity is more important than Election Convenience
Washington Post: "Democracy Dies in Darkness" More correct: "Killing Democracy Faster Than Darkness"
Being a seasoned lawman/gunfighter does not insulate one from the consequences of unsafe gun handling practices. Take, for instance, the story of the retired police officer from a major metropolitan department who claimed something like nine kills in the line of duty. As he was visiting with a man in the man's office, he suggested the man should keep a gun there for protection in that neighborhood. Saying, "Let me show you a real man's gun," he reached into his briefcase. That's when the 10mm 1911 in his briefcase discharged, sending the bullet through the retired officer's leg and into the man he was visiting.
What agency, and what what the gentleman's name?
If he shot and killed 9 men in the line of duty, then shot another in his office presumably on accident, there will no doubt be no shortage of documentation on this individual.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
Maybe if you get pulled over and have your 1911 right the cops will give you a dollar and a hearty "attaboy!"
I'd be incredibly surprised if more than 20% of the cops out there are familiar with the 1911, let alone the conditions of carry.
l told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Make your life go here. Here's where the peoples is. Mother Gue, I says, the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world, and by God, I was right. - Del Gue
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Sounds like your grandfather KNEW how to get a young boy's attention. = FYI, my grandfather said something similar to me when I was about 8YO.
Comment: My grandfather passed away in 1962. SADLY, I must tell you that I doubt that hardly any young boys will see the equal of your grandfather or mine. = They seem to all be gone now.- Such men really were "the GREATEST generation". (Fwiw, my grandfather was born in 1873 & was a survivor of the last Comanche Murder Raid into Northeast Texas. - He was about "a babe at the breast" at the time.)
Btw, when I was 12YO he gave me a 12-gauge single barrel "Long Tom" so that I "could hunt with the men". I felt VERY "grown up" that day. (As it's nothing more than a "hardware store shotgun" by RIVER ARMS of MS, I seriously doubt that I could sell that old shotgun for more than 20 bucks but money wouldn't buy it, as it was once his & now mine. = It's PRICELESS & in my will.) I'll never forget what my mother said when I came home carrying it, "Daddy, you didn't give that CHILD a REAL gun, did you? PLEASE tell me that you didn't." - My grandfather said, "Glynn, I gave it to him because he's going to hunt with the men. He's plenty old enough to hunt. This is men's business." (As my Grandfather was THE family patriarch, Mother said nothing else about it & I got to keep MY gun. - It's one of my few TREASURES.)
yours, tex
i was rereading this thread, and so the reference to a long tom. I have one too. It belonged at one time to my grandfather, a five foot six or so croat. So he at some point had shortened the stock. It had finally disappeared for many years, till it came home. my brother in law had "borrowed it" and never returned it. Some 40 years later his son gave it to me thinking i would be able to fix it. They had removed the extractor and firing pin. The pin wasn't much trouble, the extractor was. That gun had been made by a number of companies, and it took a lot of time to find a match. Which i did. Took it out and shot it once, oiled it up and it is in a safe environment. Lord only knows how many birds had to face it.
Shhh!!! It is no longer considered proper behavior to comment on such things. Let the man tell you how to dance with your pistol, and then say "Thank you." Try to appear sincere when doing so.
Clinging to guns & religion since 1959
Keyboards make people braver than alcohol
Election Integrity is more important than Election Convenience
Washington Post: "Democracy Dies in Darkness" More correct: "Killing Democracy Faster Than Darkness"
I don't want to go back and reread everything, so might have posted this before. that picture popped up on a facebook association page for peace officers. it's in the museum. didn't seem to bother him much, still had all his toes. i had commented why did he do it that way as there were other ways of disabling that. comment back which made sense if you had an inspection, you could cut it off quick with a knife.
I'm not advocating Ranger Miller's adventurous mode of carry. If he used a holster, I don't know what that was.
But I have known some serious, battle proven gunmen; from WWII and Korea vets right on through the Sand Wars, plus a whole lot of mayhem in the streets. I can think of four who killed multiple antagonists with an issued or personally owned 1911. A couple of them carried that pistol condition two. Given their results, I'd be disinclined to tell them they were doing it wrong.
Sadly, they're all gone now; but it was old age that got them, not 'leg wounds' from poor pistol handling.
Being a seasoned lawman/gunfighter does not insulate one from the consequences of unsafe gun handling practices. Take, for instance, the story of the retired police officer from a major metropolitan department who claimed something like nine kills in the line of duty. As he was visiting with a man in the man's office, he suggested the man should keep a gun there for protection in that neighborhood. Saying, "Let me show you a real man's gun," he reached into his briefcase. That's when the 10mm 1911 in his briefcase discharged, sending the bullet through the retired officer's leg and into the man he was visiting.
William J. "Bill" Allard, a member of the famous NYPD Stake Out Unit in the 1970s, reportedly passed away July 2nd last year at the age of 81.
So, you spent the better part of a year searching the net for a picture that you think makes your point. You should get a life.
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
What you guys said is more accurate than you could have known. Except that no searching was involved. Reports of such things come to me regularly. Fortunately, it seems like 1911 half-cock shooting incidents are maybe being reported less frequently - fewer ignoramuses out there, I hope - and they don't often come with photos.
WTF takes a 1911 on half cock, and puts the muzzle against their palm to cock the fugger? Same said for the guys that let the hammer down on a live round? chippy, you should start hanging out with a different crowd....
I will comment that I've never seen a personal injury from Cond 2 carry, but did know a guy who slaughtered a Fed Signal siren unit while attempting to draw his weapon while simultaneously exiting his squad. It was the only shot fired at that scene, but only by a bare whisker.
WTF takes a 1911 on half cock, and puts the muzzle against their palm to cock the fugger? Same said for the guys that let the hammer down on a live round? chippy, you should start hanging out with a different crowd....
The ignorant fool said he had just commenced clearing the 1911 he'd been carrying half-cocked, when it went off "all by itself." He has yet to explain just how his paw got out in front of the muzzle while he was doing that.
It is ignorant folks such as this fellow over which I was hoping members of this forum could perhaps find an opportunity to exercise some influence.
What you guys said is more accurate than you could have known. Except that no searching was involved. Reports of such things come to me regularly. Fortunately, it seems like 1911 half-cock shooting incidents are maybe being reported less frequently - fewer ignoramuses out there, I hope - and they don't often come with photos.
Are you saying you've become such a well known authority, that people seek you out and send you regular reports on shooting incidents?
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
i ran across a cochise deputy a few years ago, in an era of glocks he was still packing a well worn 1911. had it cocked and locked thumb break strap between hammer and frame. I kind of grinned ans said from the condition of the finish i suspected he knew how to use it, partiicularly along the border. I have had people approach me when carrying the same way, and say that was "scary". my response was, i guess it's doing it's job, it's suppose to be scary.
i ran across a cochise deputy a few years ago, in an era of glocks he was still packing a well worn 1911. had it cocked and locked thumb break strap between hammer and frame. I kind of grinned ans said from the condition of the finish i suspected he knew how to use it, partiicularly along the border. I have had people approach me when carrying the same way, and say that was "scary". my response was, i guess it's doing it's job, it's suppose to be scary.
Or, "Isn't that dangerous??" "Yes ... wouldn't do me much good if it wasn't."
I recently learned of yet another leg shooting. This fellow was handed a holstered 1911 with its hammer fully down on a loaded chamber. It shot him in the leg as he tried to stuff the rig into his pants, holster and all. I suppose there will forever be those who just don’t get the message: COCKED-AND-LOCKED.
Anyone who believes it is safe to carry a 1911 with its hammer fully down on a loaded chamber should try this:
Load a primed, BUT EMPTY, cartridge case into the chamber of a true 1911 pistol (not a Series 80 Government Model). While pointing that pistol in a SAFE DIRECTION, slowly lower the hammer fully down. Then thumb the hammer back to just before it engages the half-cock notch and release it. Unless an extra strength firing pin spring was previously installed in that pistol, expect to hear a pop maybe three times out of five attempts.
So now a series 80 isn't a 1911? Can I still carry mine cocked and locked or does that only apply to a "true 1911?" Maybe I should just carry it Barney Fife style with an empty chamber and a magazine in my offside pocket.
"243/85TSX It's as if the HAMMER OF THOR were wielded by CHUCK NORRIS himself, and a roundhouse kick thrown in for good measure."
What strikes me in this thread is those pictures and the thought that the people in them in the event of war would be defending America,...Damn!
Those people become the next "Jessica Lynch"..
They are flatly incompetent.
But it is far too politically incorrect to admit that, so they will make up a story about how they put up a "valiant fight" and make up some heroic nonsense, when the real story is a whole other matter.
The fact of the matter is that I had guys on my team/detail that day that were directly involved in the rescue of Jessica Lynch, when they were with their old SMUs and the "official" made for TV/Public/released by the Army version, versus what actually happened are two different things...
That is reality.
The fact is you have completely incompetent soldiers wandering around, leaving their weapons unattended, unsecured because "hey its a bright sunny day, and we are "non combatant type troops, we don't do any of that other stuff, we just hand stuff out to people, so the Iraqis would never do anything bad to us!"
They are that dumb.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
For my part, I carry cocked and locked. Always have. But I have shot, carried field stripped, changed mags, etc. for so long, I could literally do it blindfolded. First thing my gun hand goes to when I draw a 1911 is the safety. It's automatic.
Yep. 1911's have always been a constant for me since I started shooting, & yes, moving the thumb to the safety as soon as the hand goes to the weapons does become automatic over time.
Good story about your friend too even though it was not a happy ending.
It makes me wonder if comments/information gathered here will later end up being used in litigation by Exchipy
I believe Corwin Versus is still an active case.
I will refrain from comment right now.
My oldest and closest friend manages 1/2 of a state's worth of public attorneys and we often discuss some of the things we have seen, both good and bad.
My opinion of Stephen W Anderson's conduct here is that it has been so low class/classless that even other defense attorneys are shaking their head.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
I’m flattered you think me worthy of such detailed research.
The Corwin case (closed since early 2018), similar to others claims which followed, is actually what got me started on my campaign to spread the word promoting only cocked-and-locked carry for fully loaded 1911 pistols.
Corwin’s injury occurred in VA, a State in which a plaintiff’s personal injury claim is completely defeated if the plaintiff can be shown to be even 1% contributorily negligent in the cause of his injury. In an (unsuccessful) attempt to avoid that harsh VA law, as well as avoiding a likely gun savvy jury pool, the Corwin case was filed in Clark County (Las Vegas) NV, notorious for its liberal Democrat voters (potential jurors) and liberal Democrat judges, all likely to hold firm anti-gun views. Plaintiff’s Las Vegas attorney turned out to be a personal friend of our judge, and was excused of some pretty egregious misconduct in our case which should have got him fined by the judge, but didn’t. That Las Vegas attorney’s firm was somehow connected to the VA law firm which began the claim, part of a larger nationwide effort by liberal democrat oriented law firms to make big financial trouble for firearms manufacturers and thereby, through financial ruin, maybe get rid of those evil purveyors of death and misery, and coincidentally make a whole bunch of money for themselves in the process.
The Corwin case should have been forced to relocate to very conservative Nye County NV, where Armscor is located, which borders Clark County. But, Armscor’s then attorney specialized in general business matters, didn’t know much about guns, was “inexperienced” in the intricacies of civil litigation, was a resident of Las Vegas and therefore thought it awfully convenient plaintiff’s attorney chose to litigate in Las Vegas. Unfortunately, this all happened while I was away in Afghanistan for five years, teaching criminal justice. The case was already irretrievably stuck in Clark County by the time I returned and reconnected with Armscor. It then became my task to sort it all out and make the best of it.
First thing I did was consider hiring replacement counsel. High Standard Mfg., a co-defendant with Armscor in the case, was represented by a very competent civil litigation attorney who also knew guns. As soon as High Standard bankrupted out of the case, I immediately hired its attorney to represent Armscor, replacing Armscor’s previous “inexperienced” attorney. Things were soon looking better, but it ultimately wasn’t enough.
So, here are the case facts:
Corwin was relaxing in the living room of his rural VA home, along with his wife and a male friend of his, following a slight bit of boozing and light drug use. His fully loaded .45ACP 1911 was in Condition 2 (hammer fully lowered) in a nylon fabric holster, resting on a fabric covered couch, some feet away from him. (The user’s manual which came with Corwin’s 1911 did not allow the Condition 2 option, only fire immediately or engage the thumb safety.) He leaned over from his chair to fetch his pistol and grabbed the holstered 1911 by the muzzle, dragging it across the surface of the couch toward himself. As he was doing this, the pistol discharged, the bullet passing through the palm of his right hand and into his abdomen, causing an extremely serious wound, requiring much expensive medical treatment.
When the local law arrived, they saw what they took to be a defensive wound to Corwin’s palm, in addition to his abdominal wound, and immediately accuse the wife of shooting Corwin. Both Corwin and his friend said that wasn’t so. Corwin said he thought the hammer may have snagged on a seam in the couch fabric, was partially pulled back, then released to fire the cartridge. The suspicious cops sent the pistol and remaining ammunition to the state crime lab to have the story checked out. A VA state crime lab technician was able to get Corwin’s 1911 pistol to fire a chambered primed case three times out of five attempts by pulling back the hammer to just short of the half-cock notch and releasing it.
The facts and the controlling VA law heavily favored Armscor. Unfortunately, the biased judge, the sleazy plaintiff’s attorney, and a potentially anti-gun jury did not. In addition, Armscor’s supposed Las Vegas “firearms expert” and the retained medical expert both got unusually greedy at the last minute and engaged in what could have easily constituted extortion, including veiled threats of withheld or “modified” testimony should additional and unwarranted financial benefit to them not be forthcoming. In view of those issues, it was thought best that Armscor immediately settle the case for an amount estimated to be significantly less than the potential cost of trying the case to a win, perhaps reached only on appeal. So, that’s what was done.
Some tough lessons there for Armscor: 1. Don’t ever let a firearms product liability lawsuit proceed in liberal Clark County, it’s not proper venue anyway; 2. Don’t get cheap and hire as your “firearms expert” a local firearms dealer with whom you’re already in an ongoing business relationship; 3. If you hire a medical expert, which I’m not sure is even necessary where you’ve got liability beat, then get all the agreed terms for that expert’s service clearly fixed; and 4. Retain competent counsel.
Those lessons have been well learned, with Armscor in the years since then doing as well on claims as its self-interested insurance carriers will permit. Can’t stop insurance carriers from settling meritless claims simply because they see it as cheaper for themselves than defeating such claims. It’s really not about what’s best for the insured.
I have seen some people do their best to spin events, but the above has me shaking my head in disgust.
How you have a job is beyond me, especially in light of your conduct on a public forum.
You run down the other attorneys, calling them "sleazy"'
You run down the judge calling him "biased".
You bad mouth the medical expert, bad mouth the firearms expert, and even bad mouth the victim/plaintiff.
You even bad mouth the citizens on the jury.
This is really nothing new to those of us who have read your previous posts here, as you have a documented history of running down decorated law enforcement veterans of both NYPD's Stakeout Unit and the Texas Rangers.
I did note that you never bothered to mention the company you represent actually taking any personal responsibility.
Personally I find your conduct disgusting.
And it was not "detailed research"
It was a 30 second query. The phrase "know your audience" comes to mind...
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
To my mind a bigger risk with condition two is getting the gun into condition two. You’ve loaded the chamber and need to lower that cocked hammer. Loosing control while trying to lower it you’re still depressing the grip safety and likely still pulling the trigger because you’re concentrating on holding the hammer back and very firmly gripping the gun. Holding the trigger back would be a natural thing unless you’re very conscious of it. Condition one is the best method for me. I know the Israelis trained for years to use condition three and there’s no question they were very good with it. The idea of being in a contact distance situation and needing both hands to get my gun into action doesn’t appeal to me very much.
To my mind a bigger risk with condition two is getting the gun into condition two. You’ve loaded the chamber and need to lower that cocked hammer. Loosing control while trying to lower it you’re still depressing the grip safety and likely still pulling the trigger because you’re concentrating on holding the hammer back and very firmly gripping the gun. Holding the trigger back would be a natural thing unless you’re very conscious of it. Condition one is the best method for me. I know the Israelis trained for years to use condition three and there’s no question they were very good with it. The idea of being in a contact distance situation and needing both hands to get my gun into action doesn’t appeal to me very much.
I don't know anyone under rthe age of 60 who readily admits to carrying a 1911
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
Just a hair over 60, and am guilty of carrying a 1911 from time to time, and sometimes over long stretches of time. Been the case since I was 19. But I carry all sorts of handguns.
Just a hair over 60, and am guilty of carrying a 1911 from time to time, and sometimes over long stretches of time. Been the case since I was 19. But I carry all sorts of handguns.
I'll be sixty this June, I carry a SPS 101, when I'm only wearing a T shirt, 1911 when I'm wearing a shirt over the T shirt.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
I'd be willing to bet more accidental deaths have happened from glocks and incompetence in the last 40 year than the 1911 in the last 100.
Originally Posted by viking
If you ain’t responsible enough to carry a cocked and locked 1911, ya probably shouldn’t carry anything.
I believe youse guys gotta point, there. The 1911 is a very safe and sound design for well informed and safety conscious users. But, the ignorant and careless can too often find a way to defeat its safety features, then negligently cause personal injury and property damage. Not lately, though. Maybe they take the holidays off.
I'd be willing to bet more accidental deaths have happened from glocks and incompetence in the last 40 year than the 1911 in the last 100.
Originally Posted by viking
If you ain’t responsible enough to carry a cocked and locked 1911, ya probably shouldn’t carry anything.
I believe youse guys gotta point, there. The 1911 is a very safe and sound design for well informed and safety conscious users. But, the ignorant and careless can too often find a way to defeat its safety features, then negligently cause personal injury and property damage. Not lately, though. Maybe they take the holidays off.
“Well informed and safety conscience users”
Our lives would be very different if society did not require us to design everything to the lowest common denominator .
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