Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters What's out there in 30-30 land these days ?

After shooting Remington factory ammo out of my Model 64 Winchester for many years and accumulating quite a bit of brass along the way I'm considering loading some for this years rifle season.
In the past 748 was my powder of choice but as my supply is dwindling it's time to reorder which brings me to ask what's out there today ?
BTW, same goes for bullets.

Thanks in advance, gents.

Hodgdon Leverevolution is the powder that first comes to mind. It has done an amazing job of boosting velocity in my 30-30 loads.

W748 has been my long time go to for the .30-30, but next time I start experimenting in addition to the Leverevolution I'll try CFE223 and maybe Power Pro.

Care to share your loads/velocities shaman.

24 inch barrel on my ancient 64 and I've no intention of "maxing" it out. I'm pretty conservative.

Thanx.

Boring ole 3031 here, and Hornady 170's and Nosler pt 170's. Thought about trying the Leverevolution powder, but I'm plumb happy with this tried and true ole 3031.

CFE-223 works sweetly. Truth be told the .30-30 in general is so forgiving that you can almost close your eyes and pick one.

Yes it does and just a tad slower burning powder than Hodgdon's "LVR" powder. A sleeper powder for the 30-30...who knew!

Varget is very accurate in my G2 Contender. I am not trying to increase velocities.

Here:
Reality Sets In

and here:

Reality Sets in . . . Again

Bottom line: there are improvements. However, it does not turn the 30-30 into a 30-06.

284LUVR,

Not long ago I did a bunch of testing new bullets and powders in .30-30, by coincidence my own Model 64 rifle, along with a few old favorites. There's a chapter on the results, with a table of loads for bullets from 100 to 170 grains, in GUN GACK II, if you have a copy or know somebody who does. Aside from Leverevloution, several other newer powders did very well.

There is a poster here who calls that powder by Leverlotion.

My friend Angus1895! I call it that too just for him. Funny dude that one!

Re 15 does well for me with 150gr bullets

Same here. I have a few pounds of IMR3031 that I don't use for much else. I figure there's not much sense trying to make a 30-30 something it ain't.
Anyway, I'll probably fiddle around with some different powders once I retire just because any self respecting rifle loonie just can't leave well enough alone.
It seems like IMR8028XBR shows good numbers in several cartridges I load for, including the 30-30.

River Ridge,

One of the powders that did well in my tests was IMR3031, along with IMR4895 (duh!). In fact in GUN GACK 1, in my chapter on the .30-30 I pretty much suggested IMR4895 as THE powder for those people who absolutely have to handload the .30-30.

But then some readers started asking for more than that. (Actually some kinda whined.) So I tried a bunch more, and other powders that did very well in certain applications were Accurate LT-32 and 2015, Alliant Reloder 7, Vihtavuori N130, Hodgdon CFE223 and Varget, Ramshot TAC, and Norma 201.

I knew an old ridge runner in the Blue Ridge of Virginia who stuffed the .30-30 case full of Surplus 4831 behind a heavy cast bullet (200 grain). I doubt he ever chrono'ed the load but I'll bear witness that he killed an ungodly number of deer with that load out out of a Savage 340. The case won't hold enough 4831 to get in trouble with.

Some years ago I decided to test the .32 Special with black powder, since one of the reasons (and probably primary) it was introduced in 1901 was so old-timers used to handloading their cartridges could use black powder. This was because reloading with smokeless was consider dangerous in its early years, apparently because early smokeless was pretty touchy.

I had a Winchester 94 carbine made in 1952, which shot very well with black and a bullet cast from a Lyman mold that weighed around 165 grains, as I recall, with the alloy I used. Muzzle velocity was around 1300 fps, which may seem pretty pitiful to modern hunters, but I doubt the bullet would have done a deer much good at "woods" ranges.

MD, will be ordering a copy of GG II soon. Been reading yer fish wrappers for around 35 + years and see no reason to stop.


Thank you for many, many hours of enjoyment, Sir.

You're welcome--and thank you too!

If you want to PM me with whatever bullet weight you might want to use, I can send some loads that might work.

I have not looked any farther then 29.5 of AA2230 and a 170 grain bullet with a CCI MAGNUM primer from my old marlin 336 Rifle. My rifle has a 24" barrel and a half magazine as well as a Lyman Peep Sight and I have shot 1-1/4" groups with that load with my rifles on several occasions. I might do even better if I were to scope the rifle, but for what I want the rifle for, a scope just makes the rifle bulkier and less handy. I have plenty of scoped rifles so I think I'll leave the 30-30 as it is. I would not fire at a deer or antelope past about 250 anyway with this gun, so the peep suite me very well.

I chronographed it and it averages 2155 FPS and the deviation in a 5 shot string was 12 FPS. The same load with standard primers gave me a 2-5/8" group at the same 100 yards.

So once I found this load I just quit trying anything else. I have used Remington, Speer Nosler and Sierra 170 grain bullets and I can't see any real difference in how any of them shoot, but I have yet to kill a deer or antelope with the 170 grain Sierra. The Speer Noslers and the Remington all work perfectly, and so far I have not recovered one from any game I have killed. All gave exit wounds and did all I would every ask of a 30-30.

LVR turns the 30-30 into a 300 Savage.

Anything in the burning range of 3031 and 4895 works pretty well.

Just a Hunter,

In my experience, no, not exactly. It's pretty close to .300 Savage factory loads, though.

Have gotten 2650 out of 165's using published, pressure-tested data in the .300.

What data and rifle was that in Muledeer? I love the 300 and use one for a good deal of my big game hunting, usually shoot 150s but I have a pile of 165s I need to put to use.

More in line with the OP. One of my favorite loads for 30/30s is a 173gr cast bullet over Trailboss. They have the report and recoil of a rimfire but shoot very well out of both of my 1950’s Marlins.

TheKid,

Data from Speer, using Reloder 15. Their latest manual lists 2674 fps from a 24" barrel.

I first used their data a number of years ago, when I used 42.0 grains for around 2650 fps from a Savage 99 EG with the 165 Partition. No problems even in the lever gun.

Excellent, thank you.

Just going by what my loads have shown and comparing Hodgden load data. I wonder if they made a mistake somewhere though since they show 165s slower than 180s in the 300 Savage,

Hodgdon's 300 Savage data is anemic.

RX15 for 150/170 gr Hornady bullets or cast if you do that.

We had a 1952 Dodge step side, wood bed pickup with a straight 6, 4 speed w/granny, and floor button starter.

edit: actually that straight 6 was a FLAT head 6.

It would start and run when nothing else NEWER would. Hard to be that '52.


Jerry

Isn’t it amazing with all the whiz bang stuff this thread is going this far on the old 30-30? Cast some bullets the other just to play with my 1957 vintage 94.

A lot of that newer stuff in 30-30 land hasn't been tried by me other than maybe the Hornady FTX bullets which didn't shoot all that well out of my Marlin compared to traditional flat and round nose 30-30 bullets. Leverevolution's a nice powder but eventually I gravitated back to IMR-3031 with the 170 gr. stuff and BL-C2 for 150 gr. just like years ago. Decided to stay old school because it's just a woods gun for woods ranges. In that environment the 30-30 just plain works. Even with those "old fashioned" bullets. I could pull my 6.5x55 or even the 257 Weatherby out of the safe if conditions dictate the need for more instead of trying to stretch my effective 30-30 range with heavy loads and soft pointy bullets. If any rifle loonies need more than standard 30-30 ballistics just look at it as a great excuse to justify yet another rifle purchase.

Don't be makin' fun of the "old 30-30". Ingwe tells me it's not that old of a cartridge and they do shoot now and then.



Lower left is a group from the Contender, the rest are from a Win 94 Trapper @ various distances (50, 80 and 100 yards). 170 gr Hornady with RX12, BLC-2 and RX15. Not too shabby for a receiver sight, hey?



Of late I've been doing a fair bit of work with cast bullets, this at 50 yards

Well, Ingwe would know since he held the original patent on the .30-30 cartridge.

Heard rumors to that effect.

Sincere perspective of mine is that in the real world any one of a very small population of cartridges would serve the needs of the average shooter, or perhaps even a muzzle loader or two. There are niche cartridges that do things a bit better than other cartridges of course, and they give the marketing wankers something to salivate over for a spell. It makes for variety and gives us something to fiddle with and i for one do fiddle with a fair bit of it.

That said, in response to the frequent inquiry here at the 'Fire, boil it down to one rifle/cartridge and I'd likely take the 94 pictured above. I don't eat prairie dogs or griz, I hunt the woods/swamps and can do small game loads without any grief because I cast bullets. Function trumps bling every day.

But this forum doesn't always address practical matters, Dan. I suppose that's why it's difficult to take seriously at times.

---

"The 30-30 sucks!"

Half will get their back up when you post something like that. But...the other half will agree, citing cartridges they think are better.

There's another 'but'. Have someone in the industry that is respected post his or her support for the 30-30 and some reverse their stand, or qualify their remarks. "Well, what I meant was that I wouldn't use one..but it's okay for others to use I guess..."

Etc., etc., Amen.



An odd picture of an angry 24 hr Campfire poster. Is he ranting?
---

284LUVR, if you were happy with 748, get more. Nothing succeeds like success!

I hear ya Steve, but I'm not falling on my sword-er-.45-70 over this.

You got an old wooden bucket laying around by any chance?

I love the smell of black powder in the morning.

Dan

There is always a disturbance in the force the first few months of the year. Hunting seasons are few (depending on where you live), and those who are surrounded by snow get cabin fever. For the northern folks, even a range trip is hard to manage.

I haven't seen anyone mention the Hornady 140 gr. Mono Flex. I haven't shot them much, but Win 748 and H4895 looked promising. Mind you, the loads I've been playing with are for my Contender.

Steve - where did you get my portrait?
I'm not ranting - just sitting in the corner drooling down my shirt-front.

I think many of us here project our own circumstances when making pronunciations concerning "what's best" or "what you should think is best". I know I've slipped into that trap on occasion. I am like Dan in that a .30-30 would suit my needs from now into the hereafter, caster that I am. I won't imagine many folks in the "high wide and lonesome" would mirror that statement. Where I live and hunt a 6.5 Creedmoor is superfluous, a .300 Magnum ridiculous, and a .375 right out there. Bottom line is it's all good. Just get out and shoot.

I could hunt the rest of my life with a 30/30 and cast bullets

Same here, but I enjoy the little needle-blowers I've got, and glass, while not absolutely required yet, is a help. Closest thing to a.30/30 I have now is my .44 Low Wall, which may get violated with a scope mount if I can summon the courage. Half will decry the destruction of a "collectable" while the other half already hate its Japanese origins. Guess I should just do what I want; what a concept!

I would be interested in a simple Remington Model 7 in 30-30 Win. I am a hunter that packs in a climber, backpack and weapon. A mile is common. I doth mind 1 mile through a swamp and marsh grass but lighter is better. I have started taking my TC Encore in 45-70 gov. It's a light set up but half a dozen shells is actually noticeably heavier .

I'ld like to think of myself as a modern guy, having moved on from the antiquated 30-30 to the futuristic 300 Savage.
Disappointed in myself that it took so many decades to appreciate just how effective these rounds perform, particularly for a woods hunter.

High, wide and lonesome? Don't tell anybody but I know a fellow from out in the WY/MT region that hunts speed goats with a flintlock. Operative word there is "hunts".

For sake of clarity he is seldom unsuccessful.

Dan, I will never make fun of the 30-30 nomatter how old Ingwe is. It took the biggest deer I will likely ever shoot one morning. Much respect.

I surely enjoy my old 30-30 Glenfield with the silly pressed-in checkering & designs. Don't hunt with it all that often, but I do enjoy it. Often have it in the Jeep for short or long trips into the hills when it's just kinda nice to have a rifle along.

Tend to load good ol IMR3031 and one of the conventional 170 gr bullets; Remington, Sierra.

Have played a bit with a very light load, a cast bullet over Unique. That's fun to shoot for sure!

Guy

I just looked around the board for poster's portraits.

Mark, when you stop droolin' try this.

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/rb30.htm

I do it a little differently, but over the years I've been surprised from time to time at the repeatable accuracy.

Rest of you wankers might give it a go next winter when you're snowed in and bored senseless.

My I pad kept auto correcting me when I tried to spell lever lotion. So that's how it got named!

It's economical, meters well, and out performs the other powder I used h 4895 in shorter barrels in the 300 savage.

I noticed how much higher the bullet would hit when I was shooting rocks etc across canyons with my 94 when I shot the Hornady lever lotion cartridges compared to the other factory stuf.

I like the powder, kinda makes it boring.

Dan, I seldom carry a rifle loaded that light. Out at the ranch you may get between a mama bear, and her cubs, coyote at 200 yards, antelope, deer, or elk during season - and I've been expecting feral hogs for several years now.
I like your thinking, but, it's not for me.
Sounds fun, though!

Was jokin' mostly. Such things are good fodder for the kids at short range, and perhaps amusing adults at times. I don't do it often myself even down here were 50 yards might be a different zip code.

Don't ask me about multi-ball loads in straight wall cases. I'll deny having done such things. In a .30-30.

any consensus on best sizing diameter for cast in the pre-64 Winchesters?

65J, the first step for casting for any gun, regardless of vintage is to slug the bore. One can do a chamber cast if so inclined, but that provides info on chamber/throat dims. Slug it and you'll know what the bore/groove geometry is. For smokeless loads look for a finished bullet of groove to groove +.001".

On my trips to Wyoming for mule deer/antelope I never killed one much beyond archery range. First time out I lugged a .25-06 because all the gun scribes, seasoned friends, bar hounds, and other self-described experts said it was minimum for the long shots I was to expect. One guy chastised me for not glomming onto a .257 Weatherby as shots were that drastic. Two animals, 50 yards each. The rest of my sojourns found me with a .257 Roberts (M1952 Mannlicher-Schoenauer w/2-7x scope) figuring that a repeat performance wouldn't find me so heavily overgunned. Never mind that again all my shots were that close and closer. I swore if I repeated the trip I would just take a .30-30 with an aperture sight and call it a day. (Of course, up will jump the devil. Or not.) (Rolling prairie/high desert not far out of Gillette, guided by Randy Greer- a guy who liked that I wanted to "hunt" and not "snipe".)

Yeah, the best scope turrets and high vel cartridges can't beat one's hind legs, calloused stomach (I'm still plucking prickly pear needles years later), and grey matter.

I'll debate you over a wee dram of the old nasty on that one, Dan. Instead of slugging the bore I would do a chamber cast to include a one inch section of the throat and bore (via pound cast or Cerrosafe, take your pick). Then size the cast bullet to throat diameter minus a half thousandth or so (.0005") and ignore groove diameter. the whole idea behind uber cast bullet accuracy is to guide it as straight into the bore as possible and easing it through the throat into the leade as form fitting as possible. The chamber cast will divulge bore diameter too so one can size the nose (or pick a nose diameter) that will lie gently on top of the lands aiding in the objective of straight-down-the-barrelness.

On the other hand, selecting a bullet diameter that is a couple thousandths over groove diameter may well slop a guy into achieving the nirvana I described above. Or it may not. "Modern" throats are pretty uniform and forgiving in that regard, older rifles, especially 19th/early 20th century guns not so much. It's not uncommon to encounter ancient rifles with throats smaller than groove diameter in which case one is kind of screwed.

Oh, I don't think there's much to debate about that, but....not everyone is as looney as you and me.

One thing slugging the bore will tell you that a chamber cast won't is if you have reasonably uniform bore dims. I've run across a few surprises in the past. It isn't uncommon to find old barrels with loose dims approaching the muzzle.

There is that. Usually from horny-handed chaps long stroking from the muzzle without benefit of a bore guide. Not that I've never done that, in a previous life long ago in a galaxy far away.

Thanks for the visual!

To the OP, RL-15 and 170gr Partitions is a very good spot to be in.

Yep, if it ain't broke....

You bet DD, meters very well, burns clean, accurate, and all the speed a man could want from a 30-30 lever rifle.

Hey thanks, got some load data ?

Lyman's 49th sez 32.0 grains max of RX15 with a 170 gr JFP.

Yup, Dan's got it right in the post above, I have a 1967 year model built '94 Canadian Centennial rifle with a 26" octagon barrel, it takes up to 34 grs RL-15 for 2400 fps with those 170gr Partitions, RP nickel cases last forever, anything I've hit with it does not.

Probably due to the nickel cases.

Ya, that's it, the nickel cased coat sleeve that releases that 170gr knock your dick in the dirt Partition punch!

Any news about the 30-30 Creedmoor? Dan? I am told that Marlin (Remington) is coming out with the Model 336 Improved. No word on its release date yet.

Steve, that image prompts many reflexes, no?

I have put a leash on my tongue, save to say "336 Improved" is an oxyMORONic idea. PO Ackley's experiments on improving the .30-30 were nothing more than engineering exercise which illustrated a few unique properties of the concept.

I'll leave it at that; I need to clean the puke off my flip flops anyway.

Best wishes,

DD

Gunner, I'm wondering why Nosler didn't ID the partition as "KDD", as in Knock your D........

If Parker Ackley was alive today, he would probably try and improve an improved improvement.

Don't be angry with him. He was a rifle looney. In a way, he was the father of all improved designs. Sure, others were doing it before him, but he made it his own. Now, we talk about almost any improved design as being "Ackley Improved" - even if he didn't actually do it. The days of wrangling cartridges by individuals is pretty much gone. Oh, there are still the courageous few that try new ideas, but the golden age of improvements and wildcatting is over.

Oh, my kingdom for a 30-30 Improved!

I have no anger towards Mr A at all. He was a master looney. But Steve, that homaphroditic 336 picture was just, uh, special.

I know that you'll be thrilled to death to hear about Remington's plans for this rifle! To start with, the tube magazine isn't. It's for show. It harkens back to an older time when people actually used round nosed and/or cast bullets. It's nutriment plastic.

The lever isn't either. It's just for show, and made of fibrous provender.

Faux wood completes the image. It's called "esculent nutri-synthetic" walnut. It's eco-friendly, and if boiled, can be eaten. Don't harm the wildlife!

The insides are made completely of valent bonded impress treated, green pabulum.

Remington is working on a new case material, made of soya, that can only be used one time, and cannot be reloaded. Producers must pay a royalty if they wish to manufacture and sell it.

In fact, the whole rifle, ammunition and all, is edible! Wow, ain't progress wunnerful!

No plastic stock ?

It's not plastic. It made of synthesized plant matter. "Esculent nutri-synthetic" walnut.

Because Noah hadn't given all the credit to the nickel brass yet. ; ]

Steve, I believe that magazine arrangement MAY work better - rotated 180* (short side forward) Especially with rimmed cartridges.

You'd have to tell Remlin. A lot of what they touch turns to sheit.

A Freedom Group board member?

CEO as I understand it.

RL-15 and the 160 gr FTX aint bad, either.

Hodgdon CFE-223 is also a excellent choice across all bullets weights. CFE-223 is just a tad slower than Hodgodon "Leverlution" powder.

If it only had rails and tacticool optics I'd buy one to go with my Mossberg 464 Zombie killer.

well....

Steve you appear ready to write another book. Get after it!!

I'll second that!

I am almost there. The winter here always puts a halt to range work destined for a book. The cold temperatures and wind aren't noticed much by the rifles or cartridges, but the fool who squeezes the trigger is often afflicted. One tends to get sloppy when sitting on a frigid firing line. I think I am going to try bringing a one person blind to the line next winter, and put a heater inside.

There is an argument that bullets fly faster, the colder it gets. A debate best had by professors of physics and calculus.

Renumerated History

My old calculus prof once said that errors happen faster, and more often, when projectiles travel faster downrange than their predecessors. The fysics dep't agreed.

When asked if he meant higher bullet velocity or rapidity of fire, he said, "Yes."

He also told us that American writer, Henry Miller, is credited with the observation, “When $hit becomes valuable, the poor will be born without a$$holes." But finished by saying that while he meant no disrespect to Miller, truisms like that were around before he put words to paper. "In short," he concluded, "What's old is new again." Hmmm. "When it's raggedy a$$ cold out, why are you there?"

So, the argument that cold influences velocity would begin anew. And a third professor, someone philosophical, would be needed to continue the argument.

That box mag on the 336 would be all right if they integrate in a mag cutoff switch so you could go from tube fed brush loads to ELD's out of the box when needed. Ackley was a lot of things, in his book he said nothing to gain from improving the 270 as it was all ready overbore. But ,I do believe Sam Fadala the writer thought the 30-30 Ack Imp was the cat's meow. MB

Fadala wrote a book titled "Winchester's 30-30, Model 94" that was published in 1986. It had a chapter on the 30-30 Improved and Fadala was a fan of both the 30-30 and 30-30 Improved.

I think that the 30-30 is a suitable cartridge for shooting medium game within its performance envelop, particularly in the hands of competent hunter who knows the limits of both his/her shooting skills and those of the cartridge.