From Lucky Gunner, an interview with Federal ballistics experts. I thought the discussion of handgun velocity and energy starting at 6:40 was particularly interesting.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
Purty easy to simply shoot schit and extrapolate findings.
Hint.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
Cheyenne, thanks for posting this video. I've got a lot of respect for the guys in this video. I've done a fair bit of shooting with Johann (IDPA), and have worked with him a few times as well.
One of the things these guys will do at LE seminars is offer to participants the opportunity to shoot their carry loads into their calibrated ballistic gelatin blocks. This has been interesting, to say the least. A lot of people who carried 380's for "pocket" or "deep backup" guns got rid of them after such demonstrations.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
On the street there are just too many variables..real life is not a block of Jello....
I think the most important statement in the whole presentation was "carry what you shoot best". You have to put rounds on target otherwise all the MagicBullets in the magazine do you no good...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
Some takeaways for me are: 1. Ballistics gel doesn’t literally translate into performance on a living organism. 2. It is only through correlating the gel performance with reports from law enforcement sources that the model is validated. 3. Carry what you shoot well and make hits. 4. The model is just talking about people. Items 1-3 are things that we hear, in some form or fashion and in bits and pieces, from numerous people on Internet forums. But, I have not seen them in a clear, concise presentation from authoritative sources who work the lab side and the end user side.
Originally Posted by Big Stick
Purty easy to simply shoot schit and extrapolate findings.
Hint.................
That’s probably the gold standard. The availability of test subjects is sometimes spotty, and those pesky game and fish laws get in my way with the calibers I like to carry. I guess most of us get the most experience in that field with game and non-game critters using the legal calibers. It’s just hard to test on low frequency, high danger things like people and apex predator critters.
As to item 4 and apex predator critters, I think we do need to do some different testing than just shooting gel. We do need to know how bullets perform against different kinds of flesh and bone. Also, mass-marketed general self-defense ammo is constrained by overpenetration concerns, which is not as big a consideration in the woods. It certainly is not a concern with hunting rifle ammo! Finally, gel testing mostly is done in “duty” calibers, not necessarily the variety of calibers that people carry afield. So, most of us play in conditions outside the parameters of current gel testing. The best tests are shooting legal game and varmints and shooting facsimiles of that which we are constrained by circumstances or law to not shoot.
It also is good that we have many posters on this forum who have been there, done that, and can share their actual experiences.
Originally Posted by DocRocket
One of the things these guys will do at LE seminars is offer to participants the opportunity to shoot their carry loads into their calibrated ballistic gelatin blocks. This has been interesting, to say the least. A lot of people who carried 380's for "pocket" or "deep backup" guns got rid of them after such demonstrations.
I was fortunate enough to see Hornady do its FBI test dog and pony show. They also took guns and ammo from the audience and ran them through the protocols. I came away feeling that most of the “duty” ammo in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP works. Even if a round “failed” a test, it usually was because it went a slight bit past 18 inches. (One big fail was a Barnes Tac-XPD fired from a .45 that was way short in barrier tests.)
As far as .380 was concerned, I don’t recall that anyone had a .380 other than the Hornady reps. They only ran Critical Defense through bare gel and clothed gel, and it “passed.” They were not going to attempt it with the other barriers. OTOH, I have been playing with Buffalo Bore hard cast and Lehigh rounds in water and other media, and they sure seem capable to me. I also don’t see someone walking away from a few Gold Dots in important places. If I need a pocket gun, I’ll still take the .380 over a J frame. But, that’s just me.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
Now we know that caliber doesnt matter all people will be carrying 380 Autos and 9MM's. I am glad that is settled once and for all with this video. I am for one grateful for information such as this. It will archived for future use and occasional reedification of my self.
I AM THE GOOD FRIEND OF RENEGADE50. HE MENTORS ME. HE PUNISHES ME WHEN I AM WRONG. HE CALLS ME OUT WHEN I AM LYING. HE CARES GREATLY ABOUT ME.
Placement trumps all and everything leads with it's head.
Hint.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
I've never been against handloading your own ammo for self defense purposes, but...
I really liked what the guy said about getting the right speed. He said something to the effect that they can lose penetration when they increase speed, because the bullet expands sooner and expands more--so, don't get hung up on speed; the idea is to get sufficient penetration AND sufficient expansion.
Incorporating that thought to handloading self defense ammo: I doubt most of us test our handloads in tissue or even gel. A handloader doesn't really know what to expect from his loads. So a handloader's best best is to try to replicate loads that have been tested (a given bullet at a given speed), or just load a hard cast bullet at sufficient speed to penetrate.
I especially enjoyed them hammering home a point that is often ignored even though it's never been a secret: You gotta hit what you're aiming at, rather than hoping to shoot "good enough" and let your super magnum make up for poor marksmanship.
Last edited by Waders; 04/12/19. Reason: can't type
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
One of a multitude of reasons I've schlepped a 22LR Pistole for Bear "defense",for better than 30 years.
Hint.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
