Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Why Ballistics Gel Works And Caliber Arguments Are Dumb

Actually, the classic .38 Special loading performed great when the target wasn't either hopped up on drugs or fanaticism (like the Moro Tribesmen). Anyone not in that category generally dropped to a solid hit even from lead round nose.

TRH, in my view the standard pressure LRN load wasn't as bad as many folks thought it was, but it was still pretty weak compared to what came after. Jim Cirillo wrote about this (and his response to it as a NYPD guy), among other credible sources.

38 Special wasn’t used on the Moro Tribesmen, that was the 38 S&W not the same round

..funny, the criminals in Texas must be tougher or something...

When I worked for Dallas PD I used to try and talk with everyone who I could who had been in a gun fight.... There were several dozen over the years because at the time we averaged 80+- gunfights a year and had a 80+% hit rate....unlike 29% average for the rest of the country.

As to .38s, I talked with 9 officers who were involved in 10 shooting incidents either directly against subjects or failed to penetrate cover that should have been penetrated. 8 of the 9 changed calibers after the shooting. Only one, a Sargent who dropped a murder suspect with one shot, had nothing but praise for his gun. Most were the 158 +P FBI load. One was a Federal Nyclad (127 gr.?).

On the other hand NOT ONE of the other officers I spoke with who shot someone with 9mm to .45 Colt ever even changed their load.

..no love or trust in .38s here....nor for the 9mm/147 SubSonic...great way to make a good gun into a 15 round .38...

Bob

The old 9mm 147 gr. subsonic did suck by most accounts. The NEW 147 gr. 9mm loads seem to be excellent performing loads in actual shootings. Bullet design has come a long way since the late 80's and early 90's.

...well if that is the case then the ammo companies should be able to bump the diameter up .002, duplicate the velocity in a 4" revolver barrel and we'll have a reliable .38..

When we got rid of the 45 and went to the 357 Sig. Auto Glass was one of the driving forces behind that change. Along with automotive sheet metal and all the fun stuff there in. Initially there were some serious questions about over penetration. In a situation like a courtroom or residence. That was pretty well put to rest after researching the reasons the Federal Air Marshals chose the Sig. Most of us shot the Sig better than the 45 too. Though alot of that was probably platform. Even as big as my hand are I was never able to get a "great" grip on our Glock 21s

You're probably thinking of the same old cop I am - who really liked having a huge muzzle blast

Take it one further: it wasn't the 174 or 200 gr, Webley load either. May have been some 160 gr, roundnose U.S. standard that comes to mind.

The 38 S&W (38/380 Webley) also carried a larger diameter bullet than the 38 Special, which also had pretty decent street cred with 200gr. bullets....

I personally know of one officer who shot in anger more than once that chose 148 38 Special wadcutters over the "standard" issue 125 JHP 357's in his 19.

38's, even when loaded with lead back when, would have been interesting if the Keith shapes had been employed.

is not the video about exactly what Formidalousis said, before the big gun guys shouted him down and probably out of here? In essence most all commonly used handgun wounds are about the same within 10-15% in human tissue. Yes I know someone will be along to say a 454 is more than a 380 but is it really in a defense situation against another human adversary? Probably makes a bigger hole clean thru the target, while a good 380 probably makes a smaller hole clean thru the target. I like the hard cast loads as well but at any reasonable handgun velocity the video pretty much says if it has enough velocity to shoot into the vitals it does not matter the exact caliber. All the anecdotal stories in the world are pretty much just anecdotal compared to actual controlled testing . There is really no good reason to believe a 40SW or 45ACP is more "deadly" than a 9mm or 380 or in many cases a 22LR based on this testing. If you shoot a glock 42 well, and a 1911 with suckness, then you have your answer. All handgun calibers are more alike than they are different.

As stated in the video larger caliber bullets leave larger wound cavities, but the increase is not enough to sacrifice shooter speed and accuracy. I can gain a large degree of control over that by choosing heavier or lighter pistols in corresponding heavier or lighter recoil. I don't have to be forced into a 'everything else the same' concession. A bigger hole is still better.

HawkI... the problem we keep running into in these discussions is folks thinking that there is a material difference between one of the service handgun calibers or another, when there is in fact very little difference. Handguns are handguns, and are pretty pathetic manstoppers compared with rifles and shotguns.

Yes, if the cops in 1968 had suddenly all adopted Keith style SWC ammo, or better yet SWCHP (Treasury Load), it might have held off the ascendancy of the 357 Magnum in the 70's and 80's. But probably not, because cops were only hitting about 20% of the time with their 38's, and probably less with 357's. The problem wasnt' the caliber, or the ammunition. The problem was that cops weren't being trained very well.

Look, I've been following the Caliber Wars for 30+ years, and I've even had a small hand to play in one minor skirmish, at my own Sheriff's Office about a decade ago. The issue is that people are looking for a solution to a problem that keeps being mis-stated. Let's use the FBI post-mortem meetings after the 1986 Miami Gunfight as an example.

There were many problems in the 1986 gunfight, not the least of which was the "flying squad" underestimating the fighting capability of the felons; failing to arm themselves with rifles for what they should have known would be a rifle fight; making macho decisions on taking them down based on that underestimation; and then using bad tactics that ended up getting themselves shot all to hell; and a host of less egregious errors in tactics, training, and preparation that would take an entire series of blog articles to elucidate. But these issues were all swept under the rug, and the outcome of the AAR was to blame the debacle on one problem, and one problem only: Winchester Silver Tip 9mm 115 gr ammunition.

That's right. They blamed the ammunition carried by some (and only some!) of the FBI agents at the gunfight. Which is how we got the myth about the 9mm being an inadequate fight stopper that some members of this 24HCF still believe to be true. Which is how we ended up with the 10mm cartridge, as an "improved" auto pistol caliber, which turned out to be a difficult round to work with for most cops, which resulted in the 40 S&W round becoming the New Standard for police ammunition. And by 2016, 30 years after the Miami Firefight, the FBI announced that "improvements in ammunition" made the 9mm as good as the 40 S&W, and guess what... everybody and their dog is going back to 9mm as the issue sidearm caliber for American law enforcement.

The problem was never the 9mm. It was never the ammo, or the caliber. The fatal wound that eventually killed Michael Platt was NOT from Ed Mireles' 38 caliber bullets, nor his Remington 12 gauge buckshot, but from Jerry Dove's 9mm 115 gr Silvertip bullet that blew out Platt's pulmonary artery and resulted in mortal hemorrhaging inside his chest. This is known beyond doubt. (It has been reviewed by forensic medicine specialists ad nauseum. I have spent literally hundreds of hours reviewing the work of the docs ahead of me, and explaining to the docs and police trainers I work with.)

I've mentioned Dr. Gary Roberts' group's database before, which is based on every OIS in California over the past couple-three decades. Their data show overwhelmingly that any round that meets the FBI ballistic qualification criteria performs about as well as any other round in that group. From 9mm/38 Special up to 45 ACP, they all work about the same in general.

Here's the deal: if you put your handgun bullets into the cardiovascular bundle in the center of a man's chest, he will bleed out very quickly and collapse from lack of blood flow to the brain; if you put your handgun bullets into the core of the CNS (the brainstem) he will cease all purposeful movement immediately. If you shoot him ANYWHERE else, he may keep fighting you, even though his wounds may be mortal. PERIOD. This is established fact. Settled science, if you will.

Anything that detracts from this message is bullschitt. Waste of time and effort. If your bullets are too anemic to penetrate through the skull and soft tissues to destroy the base of the brain from any angle, or the cardiovascular bundle from any angle, your bullets are no good, a waste of time and effort, and may get you killed. If your gun recoils so viciously that you can't place your shots into these small anatomic targets from any angle with accuracy, then your gun & ammo are no good, a waste of time and effort, and may get you killed. Virtually all of the mainstream defense ammunition available on the market today is designed to meet the FBI criteria, which means you don't really have to worry if your ammo is good enough... if you carry a service caliber handgun, and you load it with commercial ammunition, it will get the job done. The question is whether YOU can get the job done.

The handgun caliber or bullet you use in this day and age is far less important than most people realize. Being able to place those shots into a very small anatomic area with speed and precision under stress is far more important. Instead of planning how you're going to be able to pay for your next new Wundergun, you should be planning on finding the money to take some good training in handgun combatives.

I agree with everything you say, except your inclusion of the 380. It's a marginal round at best. Carry it if you like, it's your funeral. The FBI's ballistic gel testing show the 380 to be anywhere from pizz-poor to barely adequate, and the data from real world shootings show that 380's do not perform to the same standard as the Service Calibers.

Yeah - does the .380 make a clean hole through any thing that walks? I'm not seeing that. I used to shoot a .380 some years ago, and the underwhelming still lingers.

FM, I've done some rigorous testing of 380 ammo, and Johann from the OP video has done a LOT more than I have, and neither of us own a 380 nor will we allow anyone in our families to own or carry 380's. For what that's worth.

Yep. Sold mine, as well. The micro nines made them kind of irrelevant anyway.

When I was in high school anyone interested in police work was advised to join the Marines, and then get hired. Then they changed the rules and required a college degree.
Now they want women and minorities.
I was president of a gun club for a few years and we allowed the local police departments to use our range to qualify the cops.
I had the keys so I would let them in
and lock others out.
I enjoyed watching women shooting 12 gauge pumps with buckshot.
I would pickup brass after they left. They had 9mm
40S&W and 45 acp.
They would drive the cars onto the range after dark
and shoot with all the lights flashing.
Some cops shoot better than others.
There are lots of variables in shooting.
I am glad that I don't have to do it.

Doc I read another article that put the 380 with several hundred shootings reported with about a 20% difference in effectiveness as compared to the 45ACP. Didn’t Cheyenne test the 380 just recently?

I’ve git some ocean front property in Arizona you may be interested in.

What might you have to get through on your way to that promised land of the cardiovascular bundle? Arm bones, walls, car doors, black leather great coats?