Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Why Ballistics Gel Works And Caliber Arguments Are Dumb

From Lucky Gunner, an interview with Federal ballistics experts. I thought the discussion of handgun velocity and energy starting at 6:40 was particularly interesting.

Interesting. I was having a few conversations like those with my son at the range today; which caliber, bullet type, etc.

Purty easy to simply shoot schit and extrapolate findings.

Hint.................

Cheyenne, thanks for posting this video. I've got a lot of respect for the guys in this video. I've done a fair bit of shooting with Johann (IDPA), and have worked with him a few times as well.

One of the things these guys will do at LE seminars is offer to participants the opportunity to shoot their carry loads into their calibrated ballistic gelatin blocks. This has been interesting, to say the least. A lot of people who carried 380's for "pocket" or "deep backup" guns got rid of them after such demonstrations.

A 22LR 40gr solid,will outdig a 380.

That ain't gellatin talkin'.

Hint................(grin)

On the street there are just too many variables..real life is not a block of Jello....

I think the most important statement in the whole presentation was "carry what you shoot best". You have to put rounds on target otherwise all the MagicBullets in the magazine do you no good...

Bob

Dead Schit...is dead schit.

Hint..............

That’s for sure and certain

I wasn't guessing.

Hint.................

I like everyone’s comments.

Some takeaways for me are:
1. Ballistics gel doesn’t literally translate into performance on a living organism.
2. It is only through correlating the gel performance with reports from law enforcement sources that the model is validated.
3. Carry what you shoot well and make hits.
4. The model is just talking about people.
Items 1-3 are things that we hear, in some form or fashion and in bits and pieces, from numerous people on Internet forums. But, I have not seen them in a clear, concise presentation from authoritative sources who work the lab side and the end user side.



That’s probably the gold standard. The availability of test subjects is sometimes spotty, and those pesky game and fish laws get in my way with the calibers I like to carry. I guess most of us get the most experience in that field with game and non-game critters using the legal calibers. It’s just hard to test on low frequency, high danger things like people and apex predator critters.

As to item 4 and apex predator critters, I think we do need to do some different testing than just shooting gel. We do need to know how bullets perform against different kinds of flesh and bone. Also, mass-marketed general self-defense ammo is constrained by overpenetration concerns, which is not as big a consideration in the woods. It certainly is not a concern with hunting rifle ammo! Finally, gel testing mostly is done in “duty” calibers, not necessarily the variety of calibers that people carry afield. So, most of us play in conditions outside the parameters of current gel testing. The best tests are shooting legal game and varmints and shooting facsimiles of that which we are constrained by circumstances or law to not shoot.

It also is good that we have many posters on this forum who have been there, done that, and can share their actual experiences.



I was fortunate enough to see Hornady do its FBI test dog and pony show. They also took guns and ammo from the audience and ran them through the protocols. I came away feeling that most of the “duty” ammo in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP works. Even if a round “failed” a test, it usually was because it went a slight bit past 18 inches. (One big fail was a Barnes Tac-XPD fired from a .45 that was way short in barrier tests.)

As far as .380 was concerned, I don’t recall that anyone had a .380 other than the Hornady reps. They only ran Critical Defense through bare gel and clothed gel, and it “passed.” They were not going to attempt it with the other barriers. OTOH, I have been playing with Buffalo Bore hard cast and Lehigh rounds in water and other media, and they sure seem capable to me. I also don’t see someone walking away from a few Gold Dots in important places. If I need a pocket gun, I’ll still take the .380 over a J frame. But, that’s just me.

Those gentleman said something I've believed for a good many years.

It's about the bullet. With modern bullet technology, caliber just doesn't matter as much as it used to.

Carry something that always goes bang, that you can shoot well, with a good modern bullet.

The rest, although fun to discuss, just isn't as important.

Now we know that caliber doesnt matter all people will be carrying 380 Autos and 9MM's.
I am glad that is settled once and for all with this video.
I am for one grateful for information such as this. It will archived for future use and occasional reedification of my self.

Placement trumps all and everything leads with it's head.

Hint.................

I've never been against handloading your own ammo for self defense purposes, but...

I really liked what the guy said about getting the right speed. He said something to the effect that they can lose penetration when they increase speed, because the bullet expands sooner and expands more--so, don't get hung up on speed; the idea is to get sufficient penetration AND sufficient expansion.

Incorporating that thought to handloading self defense ammo: I doubt most of us test our handloads in tissue or even gel. A handloader doesn't really know what to expect from his loads. So a handloader's best best is to try to replicate loads that have been tested (a given bullet at a given speed), or just load a hard cast bullet at sufficient speed to penetrate.

I especially enjoyed them hammering home a point that is often ignored even though it's never been a secret: You gotta hit what you're aiming at, rather than hoping to shoot "good enough" and let your super magnum make up for poor marksmanship.

Crap. Stick and I were typing at the same time, making the same point about marksmanship.

I guess Karamojo Bell was a good example that placement is key.

Insinuate..............

glockdoofus,

EXACTLY. = SHOT PLACEMENT is the PRIME thing in stopping an assault or taking game. - A MISS will a howitzer is still a miss.

yours, tex

Imitation is THE most Sincere form of Flattery.

Hint.................

Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen, all else is gravy.

One of a multitude of reasons I've schlepped a 22LR Pistole for Bear "defense",for better than 30 years.

Hint.................

Waders, we agree on this point. Many years ago I picked up a kernel of knowledge from Paco Kelly, who advised his readers to test ALL of their bullets and loads in test media, so one could say with confidence how those loads would work on game (and critters). I took that to heart, and boy, did I learn a thing or three.

I've been testing my "serious" handloads in ballistic media of various descriptions for a long time now. Initially, a good friend and I were able to use animal carcasses pretty freely (his grandfather owned a rendering plant), and it was eye-opening. (Suffice to say I learned I don't need to drive my 45 Colt bullets quite as hard as I'd been driving them...) I had a lot of opportunities to shoot ballistic gelatin for a time, as well, when I still lived in Wisconsin. These days I use the plastic gel media you can buy on the internet, which is a lot less messy than gelatin and a lot less temperature sensitive. That and water-filled milk jugs. All of my hunting loads, including the ones I shoot out of my rifles at game, get tested.

But I buy my personal defense pistol ammunition, for exactly the reason you cite. The guys at the ballistics labs at Federal-ATK, Winchester-Western, and Buffalo Bore (among others, of course, but those are the ones I use primarily) optimize their ammunition for best bullet performance and reliability. It's worth spending the extra dough for that. I reload all my training ammo, which is incidentally tailored to match my carry load ballistics. Win win.

We used to slaughter hogs on the farm using an old knife that hung on the wall in the barn. My dad persuaded my uncle in the mid-60's that his .22 pistol did a better job, and was less messy. It did, and it was.

Dad's .22 didn't work quite as well on cattle, though... thicker skulls, I expect. They certainly look so when you run them through the bandsaw, though I never got out the dial calipers to quantify. Anyways, we used my grandfather's .455 Webley (the only other handgun Dad owned) on the slaughter steers after the first couple of .22 caliber rodeos. I prefer 45's myself, nowadays, although I'd be just as comfortable with a .38 Special for such purposes.

YMMV.

Great vid.

Notice that the professionals didn't recommend wide-meplat hardcast as the ultimate permanent wound cavity maker. Why? Because hardcast is a deep hole-driller - nothing more.

But can make consistently ugly wounds.

Um... yes, and no. They didn't mention wide meplat bullets because Federal doesn't make any, nor load any in their defensive ammunition... and the discussion was about personal defense ammunition, not hunting ammunition. I have discussed WFN and LFN cast bullets with Johann Boda, though, and he/they have tested them. They work as advertised and drill very deep holes.

A permanent wound cavity is, essentially, a deeply-drilled hole. Which is exactly what you want in a solid bullet used on dangerous game. The best-performing solid bullets are wide-meplat flat nosed bullets, made of hard and heavy metal such as tungsten or mild steel. These bullets will run straight as a die from one side of an elephant's head to the other, which increases your chances of hitting the brain for a stopping shot. They'll also run lengthwise through a charging buffalo or hippo. They're not for shooting impala or pronghorn, they are for stopping dangerous game.

You don't need such bullets for North American hunting, or for personal defense. I used to load WFN bullets at velocities that would run them lengthwise through a dead Clydesdale horse carcass. I eventually figured out that I didn't need 6 feet of penetration to kill a whitetail deer standing broadside to me, and stopped worshiping at the altar of Our Lady of High Velocity LBT Bullets at that point. They work very well in the right place, but nearly all my cast hunting bullets now are cast to a hardness that's about what Elmer Keith used to use (he called them "hard cast", with a BHN of 12-14, much softer than the BHN of 18-20 of many of today's commercial WFN-type bullets). And I've found that WFN bullets don't kill deer and hogs any better than Keith SWC's. But I still cast and shoot both types.

As several have pointed out, there is some really complex physics involved. Duncan Macpherson's book would be a good place to start, if you can find a copy.

I'm in the same position on all except a difference in that last paragraph: The commercial manufacturers have to "optimize" their ammo for function in every firearm that consumers might use, but I can optimize my own serious loads for just my gun; I don't have to make concessions to function in anyone else's gun, and can find the best load for mine. I load my own defensive ammo for that reason. (That does NOT mean loading in a different velocity range than the bullet was designed for, it just means minor tweaks in seating depth, powder charge and type, etc to get best performance in my own equipment.) It's the same reasoning for loading my own precision rifle ammo instead of buying commercial match ammo.

The bit about the "right" speed is absolutely important, and makes a lot more difference than the average consumer realizes.

If I ever piss off Anheuser-Busch, I'm calling you...

Yondering, you make a good point. I have no quarrel with you on that point!

I usually carry a 1911 in 45 ACP as my personal defense weapon, so of course all ammunition in that caliber will function flawlessly in my defensive pistols...

I wish we had a “like” button on this forum. Lots of great posts in this thread.

Like!
🤓

I thought that the "crux or key" in this presentation is between 9:25 -- 9:35, and that about summed it up for me...

Been my experience as well.

The expanding handgun bullet is rife with speed do's and don'ts and the mechanics of such are what limits them at spitting distances and over yonder, which is why they need to advertise how awesome they are (and some are very good) within their windows.

Handgun solid testing is probably repetitively boring...

Yep; ammo manufacturers, if it weren't for the need for a one size fits all, would cover more ground with just using lead alloys and ditching the jackets, for handgun rounds.

Being a long time revolver hunter, I have never found a media worth shooting into. My tests have been necropsies on deer. There is bone and lungs that contain liquid but also a lot of air. I do not carry and never had a need to shoot a perp but placement to put a hurt on him should do the trick. Penetration in the field is what you want but energy must be applied in just the right distance and even if a bullet goes to the moon after, it will kill fast.
I understand carry means less penetration to protect innocent people. The problem is most carry guns are not accurate enough, have fixed sights, etc.
However we always played with all kinds of stuff to shoot into for fun. Once we were fishing Rocky River and found a bank of blue clay. We went back to get a few 5 gallon buckets of it to make clay blocks. It was pretty stuff. I had to go to work but my friend took his and poured water in and could not wait to test. He failed to make a block. He set it up in his basement and took the .44 mag and shot it. Every joist dripped blue muck and it took him a week to wash the basement.
My fastest deer killer is the BFR in .475 Linebaugh. By setting up gallon jugs of water it will blow 4 sky high and split the fifth.Then my bullet penetrated all 17 jugs in a straight line. I figured I could catch it but NOT. It showed where the energy was. I made the mold as an almost WFN cast from WW's and water dropped. Never would I use it for defense as it would take out my 4 runner too. If inside every wall would be penetrated.
I recently acquired a pile of guns from a friends son when his dad died. I have 2 .380's and the most accurate is the 1908 Colt pocket pistol with a Browning second. A friend carries a newer gun and has to aim well off to hit. Under stress he would not remember where to hold.

bfr... I used to shoot heavy loads on deer, as well. I eventually figured out it wasn't necessary. If my bullet puts 2 holes in the deer and punctures lungs and/or heart on the way through, the deer will die in short order. Much like your 17 water jugs demonstrated, most of the energy of those 325 gr bullets leaving the muzzle at 1300+ fps was expended long after perforating the deer I was shooting at. I eventually realized that a 265 gr bullet stepping out at 900-1000 fps would do the job just as well, and did a lot less damage to my hand.

The FBI protocol for defense/service loads is 12-14 inches. They chose that penetration depth for a reason: these bullets/loads won't shoot through the torso of a human being, averting the liability of subsequent perforation of bystanders downrange. As hunters, we know that having 2 holes in what we are trying to kill is better for tracking game to the location of the dead animal. When shooting humans, tracking to find the carcass ain't quite as important. So I can live with the FBI's penetration model, and that is why I don't carry WFN loads in my carry pistol(s). I should note that when I'm out in the field or mountains, where overpenetration is a virtue rather than a liability, my sidearm is (usually) stoked with flatnose cast bullets.

Not being able to remember where to hold under stress is a huge problem with police firearms training. I've tried to do my part in addressing this training problem, and so far it's working. www.tacticalanatomy.com

Link is bad.

Hmm. Checking with webmaster.

Doc: How do you define WFN? Specifically what percentage of the bullet diameter does the meplat diameter need to be to qualify as a Wide Flat Nose as opposed to a Long Flat Nose? Would you consider the Federal 41 Rem Mag 250 Grain Castcore (P41B) a WFN? The meplat diameter is 79% of bullet diameter (.325 divided by .410).

Did you check on LBT Website? Wasnt he the one that coined the term back in the 1980's? Seems that would be the place ro go to.
At least I would.

Essentally what the guys in the video are saying is that at "handgun velocities", gelatin penetration depth and diameter of recovered projectile tells (more or less) the whole story of stopping power.
I'm skeptical.

Ummmmm...no fhuqking schit.

Hint................

What about occasions where LEO need to shoot through glass windows, or car doors. It's difficult to believe that all handguns penetrate the same through barriers.

Veral Smith's definitions aren't spelled out anywhere I can find (I think Stanton does in his Beartooth Bullets manual, but I'm not positive on that). Here's what I've noted for calibers I cast for:

1. WFN - Wide Flat Nose bullets have a meplat about 80-81% of bullet diameter
2. LFN - Long Flat Nose bullets tend to run a meplat of about 72-73% of bullet diameter
3. WLN - Wide Long Nose bullets have meplats around 78-79% of bullet diameter
4. FN - Flat Nose bullets have meplats anywhere from 72% to 78% of bullet diameter
5. SWC - Keith style Semi-Wadcutter bullets vary from 69% to 78% of bullet diameter, depending on the bullet in question

... so there's no hard and fast rule here. I tend to use "WFN" as a generic term for any bullet with a meplat of near 80% bullet diameter, because they're slightly wider than the Keith SWC and tend to fly straight. I don't know that they hit any harder than Keith designs, but they were all the rage when I got into bullet casting, so I bought the hype and invested in LBT and other moulds with that profile rather than SWC's. I

I like LBT bullets and molds, and I like Beartooth Bullets (which are LBT designs, for the most part). But I use other bullets as well. The Lee 265 gr 0.452 caliber bullet has an 82% meplat diameter, for instance, and I find it shoots and feeds really well in both revolvers and rifles, and I can cast a lot more of them with my 6-bullet gang mould in a unit of time than I can cast LBT bullets out of a proprietary mould.

After reading Fryxell's book on casting (great, great book!) I started trying a couple SWC designs, and I'm not convinced either the LBT or the KSWC design is better than the other. The key is use good alloy and cast consistently good bullets of the right hardness for your purpose, and find loads that work in your guns.

They don't. Performance through intermediate barriers is highly variable. Gary Roberts' group has done a lot of testing on that sort of thing and has some good recommendations if you're interested in doing the search. I stick with GDHP's for my personal handgun carry ammo because it is consistently good through barriers in all the calibers I carry. Rifles is a whole 'nother story.

Good video and discussion.

One question I would have is that for years the .357mag 125gr load doing 1400+ fps was called the king of stoppers, that it was much better than anything else in the real world. Now we don't hear as much about it. Was "king of stoppers" hype, or has new information come to light?

Yeah, I'm confused...at 7:52, he says that a .44 Magnum produces a more significant wound, but not enough to matter." Well, then, what makes it a more significant wound? Later, at 9:28, we're told the goal is "the perfect 14"-16" inches of penetration and getting the projectile as big as we can." Isn't the .45 the biggest projectile if it expands at proportionately the same rate as smaller calibers? But caliber arguments are dumb? F me!

If you ask me it sounds like Federal is sucking up to the FBI because they are a good customer.
Nothing new.
No way am I buying into the bullshit that the 9mm is the same as a 45 acp. 45 has twice the bullet weight. You can't ignore that.
Women shoot the 9mm better than the 45 so magically the laws of Physics have changed.
Little is the same as big. I don't think so.

Ballistic gelatin provides a yardstick to measure the performance of one load against another under controlled laboratory conditions. There are similarities between ballistic gel and living tissue but they end with the skin, fur, bones and various densities of organs and tissue that comprise mammals, not to mention the angle at which any of these may be struck.

It stands to reason that a government agency which puts forth a set of protocols, for measuring ammunition performance, would also set performance standards reflecting what they expect contract submissions to achieve. Federal contracts are lucrative and ammunition manufacturers will bust their humps to land them. They also realize that generally, being more or less compliant with those standards will sell a lot of ammo to people who base their selections on what reviews well in the firearms press, youtube and the internet. Now I don't begrudge anyone the freedom to report their findings; or anyone else their choices based on that reporting. In truth, I doubt any of it matters more than what you had for breakfast.

A man center-punched with 9mm ball, a 38 RNL, or a 45 ACP/ Long Colt is going to react exactly the same today as he did 100 years ago. And as with shooting game, there will always be outliers.



The important components to surviving any armed confrontation are the ability to recognize survival means destroying your adversary; the ability to irrevocably commit to destroying him or it by any means at your disposal; and the wherewithal to accomplish that end with fury and ruthlessness, to deprive them of the opportunity to kill or seriously injure you first. Weapons are of course necessary to win, but they occupy a distant second place to your willingness to use them.

I have witnessed one demonstration of the FBI protocol tests with my own eyes, and ammo manufacturers have figured out a way to stay within the 12-18 inch penetration mark in ballistic gelatin across 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP calibers in six different media: bare gelatin, heavily clothed gelatin, and lightly clothed gelatin placed behind 4 different barriers, namely, wallboard, plywood, steel and windshield glass. Of course, all of the barriers and the manner in which they are set up have their own parameters, so there is no way to cover every possibility. Anyway, it is rather impressive. Bear in mind that the 12-18 inch requirement still has 6 inches of wiggle room factored into it, which is pretty significant from a percentage standpoint.

I'm mostly concerned with how a bullet performs when I center punch a mans chest at 5 feet distance in a dimly lit parking garage. The only barrier I'm likely going to need to penetrate is a heavy coat. I guess I just live a boring existence.

Good and even a heavy bullet in a .45 Colt slower will kill anything on earth. It is not velocity but where energy is applied and too fast does not mean deader. The fact is I have revolvers that shoot too fast like the 45-70 BFR and it will lose deer because 1630 FPS makes it a stick hole. Then I found a WFN does not work better then a WLN. There is a pressure wave from the meplat that will move tissue out of the way of the bullet and will collapse back so the big meplat theory is not true. Slow the big meplat and it will work better.

If you have penetration,you can break skeletons and in a handgun,the chambering/projectile is largely moot,assuming a shred of sense. Break shoulders on tablefare,shoot schit trying to chew on you in the melon...there ain't much to it.

Hint...............

The flipside to that is the handful of times I've been involved in with security contractors (essentially clearing buildings) they opt for max penetration - bad guys hide behind stuff.

Patrick, you have to take that "king of the manstoppers" title in the context it was made... the 60's and 70's. At that time, 90% of American patrol officers carried 158 gr roundnose lead bullets in their 6-shot revolvers. Which, if you recall, was not a terribly effective bullet at baseline. It was upgraded some to the so-called Treasury Load (158 gr SWCHP at +P velocity), which was a substantial improvement. The 357 Magnum came into more widespread LE use in the late 60's, and a high-velocity (1250+ fps) 125 gr bullet was the "standard". I know guys who carried that load, and they said it was truly impressive to fire those off at night (when most OIS's happen). I have some old Super Vel loads from that era, and have fired them at night for a photo op, and they are amazing... flame shoots 10 feet from the muzzle, and the side blast from the cylinder-barrel gap looks like a giant orange butterfly 5 feet across. And they were LOUD. None of this low-flash, low-blast nonsense!

In any case, one of my old copper buddies tells me they would shoot at perps with these loads at night and the bad guys would often surrender just based on the blast, flame, and roar of the 357 loads.

But ballistically speaking, did they perform any better than current LE/defense rounds? Not really. I've shot ballistic vests with them, and I've shot gelatin with them, and all the metrics are within the FBI protocol. So nothing magical.

Snake, when I lived and worked up in Wisco I did an informal study of bad guys shot by police in our area in the cold months. It wasn't uncommon for the local felons to wear 4-5 layers while out and about committing their felonies. More or less typical was a leather jacket or vest and maybe a polyester-fill insulated jacket, denim/canvas shirt, cotton hoodie, and a couple of t-shirts. This much clothing exceeds the FBI test protocol by a helluva margin. Top that off with 3-4" of chest blubber on your typical Wisconsin fat f u c k e r/biker and you have a significant penetration challenge.

The most common rounds carried by the po-po in Wisco at that time were the Federal HST 40 S&W 180 gr load, or the 40 S&W Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point 180 gr load. Both rounds are pretty hot as I recall. These rounds performed superbly over and over again, through clothing, interior doors, auto side window glass, windshield glass, and auto sheet metal doors.

This is the same ammo that you can buy to load in your personal defense guns, in whatever caliber you prefer, and it will work just as well for you. To my mind this is what the ammo companies should be using as a selling point, sort of the way Mercedes-Benz and Ford use their auto racing successes to sell more of their cars to us urban commuters.

Depends on how you define "work better", but in the main I agree with you. My standard load for my 45 Colt revolvers is a nominal 265 gr WFN bullet at about 950 fps. Cast of Lyman No. 2 alloy it's about 258 grains actual weight. It is deadly on deer and on hogs.

True.

If you look at Dr. Gary Roberts' recommendations for 5.56 carbine loads, you'll note that he lists standard patrol/antipersonnel loads separately from SWAT/antivehicle loads. The latter have greater barrier penetration capabilities. You really can't go wrong with the Nosler Partition 60 gr bullet, for example, at relatively low cost. Any of the bonded bullets from any of the manufacturers out there will do equally well. Federal TRU 62 gr is an excellent choice in this category as well. Black Hills used to make a Nosler Partition LE load that was superb, and I stocked up on it at the time fearing that it would vanish down the road, and it did.

This is the same principle identified by officers chasing down bank robbers in the 1930's, which led to development of "heavy" revolvers such as the S&W 38/44, which were loaded with linotype bullets that would zip through the relatively thick automobile sheet metal of the day like a hot knife through butter.

The flip side of the advantages of this penetration capability is that downrange collateral damage can be fierce with the wrong bullet. So that 1938 .38 caliber linotype bullet might be great for perforating the door of a gangster's Ford V8, but it would just keep on keepin' on through the other side door, and through the little old lady bystander on the sidewalk. This police PR disaster ain't as likely with good loads from Federal/Speer/ATK or Winchester-Western, Black Hills, Barnes, and Hornady... as the OP video points out, these makers have made the effort to optimize performance, and in the case of patrol rifle loads, they've developed loads that will defeat intermediate barriers but still perform to FBI standards in gelatin (no more than 18" of penetration).

Well, I think you're selling both the FBI and the Federal/Speer/ATK guys short, but that's your business.

The cool thing about America is you have the freedom to buy and carry 45 ACP loads for your personal carry, or to buy 9mm for your personal carry, and nobody can tell you it's prohibited. And you will be well-served by either one, no matter what you believe or don't believe. So carry on and more power to you, amigo.

Actually, the classic .38 Special loading performed great when the target wasn't either hopped up on drugs or fanaticism (like the Moro Tribesmen). Anyone not in that category generally dropped to a solid hit even from lead round nose.

TRH, in my view the standard pressure LRN load wasn't as bad as many folks thought it was, but it was still pretty weak compared to what came after. Jim Cirillo wrote about this (and his response to it as a NYPD guy), among other credible sources.

38 Special wasn’t used on the Moro Tribesmen, that was the 38 S&W not the same round

..funny, the criminals in Texas must be tougher or something...

When I worked for Dallas PD I used to try and talk with everyone who I could who had been in a gun fight.... There were several dozen over the years because at the time we averaged 80+- gunfights a year and had a 80+% hit rate....unlike 29% average for the rest of the country.

As to .38s, I talked with 9 officers who were involved in 10 shooting incidents either directly against subjects or failed to penetrate cover that should have been penetrated. 8 of the 9 changed calibers after the shooting. Only one, a Sargent who dropped a murder suspect with one shot, had nothing but praise for his gun. Most were the 158 +P FBI load. One was a Federal Nyclad (127 gr.?).

On the other hand NOT ONE of the other officers I spoke with who shot someone with 9mm to .45 Colt ever even changed their load.

..no love or trust in .38s here....nor for the 9mm/147 SubSonic...great way to make a good gun into a 15 round .38...

Bob

The old 9mm 147 gr. subsonic did suck by most accounts. The NEW 147 gr. 9mm loads seem to be excellent performing loads in actual shootings. Bullet design has come a long way since the late 80's and early 90's.

...well if that is the case then the ammo companies should be able to bump the diameter up .002, duplicate the velocity in a 4" revolver barrel and we'll have a reliable .38..

When we got rid of the 45 and went to the 357 Sig. Auto Glass was one of the driving forces behind that change. Along with automotive sheet metal and all the fun stuff there in. Initially there were some serious questions about over penetration. In a situation like a courtroom or residence. That was pretty well put to rest after researching the reasons the Federal Air Marshals chose the Sig. Most of us shot the Sig better than the 45 too. Though alot of that was probably platform. Even as big as my hand are I was never able to get a "great" grip on our Glock 21s

You're probably thinking of the same old cop I am - who really liked having a huge muzzle blast

Take it one further: it wasn't the 174 or 200 gr, Webley load either. May have been some 160 gr, roundnose U.S. standard that comes to mind.

The 38 S&W (38/380 Webley) also carried a larger diameter bullet than the 38 Special, which also had pretty decent street cred with 200gr. bullets....

I personally know of one officer who shot in anger more than once that chose 148 38 Special wadcutters over the "standard" issue 125 JHP 357's in his 19.

38's, even when loaded with lead back when, would have been interesting if the Keith shapes had been employed.

is not the video about exactly what Formidalousis said, before the big gun guys shouted him down and probably out of here? In essence most all commonly used handgun wounds are about the same within 10-15% in human tissue. Yes I know someone will be along to say a 454 is more than a 380 but is it really in a defense situation against another human adversary? Probably makes a bigger hole clean thru the target, while a good 380 probably makes a smaller hole clean thru the target. I like the hard cast loads as well but at any reasonable handgun velocity the video pretty much says if it has enough velocity to shoot into the vitals it does not matter the exact caliber. All the anecdotal stories in the world are pretty much just anecdotal compared to actual controlled testing . There is really no good reason to believe a 40SW or 45ACP is more "deadly" than a 9mm or 380 or in many cases a 22LR based on this testing. If you shoot a glock 42 well, and a 1911 with suckness, then you have your answer. All handgun calibers are more alike than they are different.

As stated in the video larger caliber bullets leave larger wound cavities, but the increase is not enough to sacrifice shooter speed and accuracy. I can gain a large degree of control over that by choosing heavier or lighter pistols in corresponding heavier or lighter recoil. I don't have to be forced into a 'everything else the same' concession. A bigger hole is still better.

HawkI... the problem we keep running into in these discussions is folks thinking that there is a material difference between one of the service handgun calibers or another, when there is in fact very little difference. Handguns are handguns, and are pretty pathetic manstoppers compared with rifles and shotguns.

Yes, if the cops in 1968 had suddenly all adopted Keith style SWC ammo, or better yet SWCHP (Treasury Load), it might have held off the ascendancy of the 357 Magnum in the 70's and 80's. But probably not, because cops were only hitting about 20% of the time with their 38's, and probably less with 357's. The problem wasnt' the caliber, or the ammunition. The problem was that cops weren't being trained very well.

Look, I've been following the Caliber Wars for 30+ years, and I've even had a small hand to play in one minor skirmish, at my own Sheriff's Office about a decade ago. The issue is that people are looking for a solution to a problem that keeps being mis-stated. Let's use the FBI post-mortem meetings after the 1986 Miami Gunfight as an example.

There were many problems in the 1986 gunfight, not the least of which was the "flying squad" underestimating the fighting capability of the felons; failing to arm themselves with rifles for what they should have known would be a rifle fight; making macho decisions on taking them down based on that underestimation; and then using bad tactics that ended up getting themselves shot all to hell; and a host of less egregious errors in tactics, training, and preparation that would take an entire series of blog articles to elucidate. But these issues were all swept under the rug, and the outcome of the AAR was to blame the debacle on one problem, and one problem only: Winchester Silver Tip 9mm 115 gr ammunition.

That's right. They blamed the ammunition carried by some (and only some!) of the FBI agents at the gunfight. Which is how we got the myth about the 9mm being an inadequate fight stopper that some members of this 24HCF still believe to be true. Which is how we ended up with the 10mm cartridge, as an "improved" auto pistol caliber, which turned out to be a difficult round to work with for most cops, which resulted in the 40 S&W round becoming the New Standard for police ammunition. And by 2016, 30 years after the Miami Firefight, the FBI announced that "improvements in ammunition" made the 9mm as good as the 40 S&W, and guess what... everybody and their dog is going back to 9mm as the issue sidearm caliber for American law enforcement.

The problem was never the 9mm. It was never the ammo, or the caliber. The fatal wound that eventually killed Michael Platt was NOT from Ed Mireles' 38 caliber bullets, nor his Remington 12 gauge buckshot, but from Jerry Dove's 9mm 115 gr Silvertip bullet that blew out Platt's pulmonary artery and resulted in mortal hemorrhaging inside his chest. This is known beyond doubt. (It has been reviewed by forensic medicine specialists ad nauseum. I have spent literally hundreds of hours reviewing the work of the docs ahead of me, and explaining to the docs and police trainers I work with.)

I've mentioned Dr. Gary Roberts' group's database before, which is based on every OIS in California over the past couple-three decades. Their data show overwhelmingly that any round that meets the FBI ballistic qualification criteria performs about as well as any other round in that group. From 9mm/38 Special up to 45 ACP, they all work about the same in general.

Here's the deal: if you put your handgun bullets into the cardiovascular bundle in the center of a man's chest, he will bleed out very quickly and collapse from lack of blood flow to the brain; if you put your handgun bullets into the core of the CNS (the brainstem) he will cease all purposeful movement immediately. If you shoot him ANYWHERE else, he may keep fighting you, even though his wounds may be mortal. PERIOD. This is established fact. Settled science, if you will.

Anything that detracts from this message is bullschitt. Waste of time and effort. If your bullets are too anemic to penetrate through the skull and soft tissues to destroy the base of the brain from any angle, or the cardiovascular bundle from any angle, your bullets are no good, a waste of time and effort, and may get you killed. If your gun recoils so viciously that you can't place your shots into these small anatomic targets from any angle with accuracy, then your gun & ammo are no good, a waste of time and effort, and may get you killed. Virtually all of the mainstream defense ammunition available on the market today is designed to meet the FBI criteria, which means you don't really have to worry if your ammo is good enough... if you carry a service caliber handgun, and you load it with commercial ammunition, it will get the job done. The question is whether YOU can get the job done.

The handgun caliber or bullet you use in this day and age is far less important than most people realize. Being able to place those shots into a very small anatomic area with speed and precision under stress is far more important. Instead of planning how you're going to be able to pay for your next new Wundergun, you should be planning on finding the money to take some good training in handgun combatives.

I agree with everything you say, except your inclusion of the 380. It's a marginal round at best. Carry it if you like, it's your funeral. The FBI's ballistic gel testing show the 380 to be anywhere from pizz-poor to barely adequate, and the data from real world shootings show that 380's do not perform to the same standard as the Service Calibers.

Yeah - does the .380 make a clean hole through any thing that walks? I'm not seeing that. I used to shoot a .380 some years ago, and the underwhelming still lingers.

FM, I've done some rigorous testing of 380 ammo, and Johann from the OP video has done a LOT more than I have, and neither of us own a 380 nor will we allow anyone in our families to own or carry 380's. For what that's worth.

Yep. Sold mine, as well. The micro nines made them kind of irrelevant anyway.

When I was in high school anyone interested in police work was advised to join the Marines, and then get hired. Then they changed the rules and required a college degree.
Now they want women and minorities.
I was president of a gun club for a few years and we allowed the local police departments to use our range to qualify the cops.
I had the keys so I would let them in
and lock others out.
I enjoyed watching women shooting 12 gauge pumps with buckshot.
I would pickup brass after they left. They had 9mm
40S&W and 45 acp.
They would drive the cars onto the range after dark
and shoot with all the lights flashing.
Some cops shoot better than others.
There are lots of variables in shooting.
I am glad that I don't have to do it.

Doc I read another article that put the 380 with several hundred shootings reported with about a 20% difference in effectiveness as compared to the 45ACP. Didn’t Cheyenne test the 380 just recently?

I’ve git some ocean front property in Arizona you may be interested in.

What might you have to get through on your way to that promised land of the cardiovascular bundle? Arm bones, walls, car doors, black leather great coats?

My neighbor is an air marshal and was issued a .357 Sig. He has been over to shoot and to even see him on a plane load of people is scary. Now I don't know if it is him or the gun is just not accurate but I hear him shooting up behind me all the time.
I have no axe to grind with the .380 and I just shoot them for fun since any situation serious enough will make use of one of my 1911's. I have a Dan Wesson Patriot and a Colt series 80.
Now the .38 S&W is below my slingshot. I had one in to work on long, long ago. Got it fixed and wanted to test the action. I lived in Cleveland so the best place to shoot was in my old mans car for noise. I stacked a pile of 2X4's on the back floor and shot into them from the front seat. Every single bullet only penetrated half it's depth in the first 2X4.
Now the .45 Colt with a heavy WLN at 1160 FPS penetrated a 16" box elder tree and cut a 1" grape vine in half after and I never found the bullet in the ground.
The old west and Sam Colts SAA might have been the best combination ever. The bad thing was the bad guys also carried them.
Shooting at soaked phone books and paper had the larger calibers like the .475 go 37" while an XTP made only 12". I actually found bullets that penetrated 16" of seasoned oak after going through the paper.
The .44 mag with a 240 XTP made 11" but a 265 RD made 33". A 330 gr went 34" Penetration is sure not lacking with a handgun unless bullets are fast expanding or light.
Long ago shooting a Keith bullet through fenders of a junk car showed it would break into the engine. Some made it to the piston.
I started deer hunting with the .44 and 240 XTP's and recovered all the bullets and deer ran too far with no blood trails. I changed to the WLN LBT and deer went down fast and I never recovered a cast bullet even shot from the chin to tail.

statistically despite your offer of a land sale in Arizona, the 380 is within about 20% of the 45ACP

Now I need to get a 5.7, geez

the Terrorist Nidal Hassan used one to deadly effect at Ft. Hood.

Within 20% of what?

Did I read that wrong or were you actually shooting a revolver inside your dad’s car? If you were that may be the funniest thing I’ve ever read.

if you get shot in the chest with a 380 and get shot in exactly the same place with a 45ACP you are IIRC about 20% more likely to stop what your doing with the 45ACP. Someone posted the study not too long ago on these forums, now we have this video from one of the biggest manufacturers of ammunition in the world saying about the same thing. It's been difficult for me as well to come to grips with the concept as well that a 240 grain soft point 44 magnum at 1300 FPS is just not that much more effective than a 90 grain 380 at 1000 FPS if they hit the exact same spot on a human target under identical conditions. A 44 or 475 has the momentum to shoot thru a buffalo but for self defense 20 inches of penetration is more than enough and below 2300 or so FPS they ain't that much different.

Yeah I did, could not shoot it anywhere else and the car muffled the little gun. It is so weak I think a 1X2 would have stopped it. The car was junk anyway, My dad ruined cars real fast. I don't think he ever got 20,000 miles from anything.
First thing he did was toss the air cleaner so it could breath and it sure did, every speck of dust, then he poured aluminum paint into the oil and gas to seal it up.
Maybe the blue clay would be better!

Actually I think I will get a TCM 9R barrel for my G17 and sell everything else.

⁰
If you believe that BS then hunt deer with a 380 and test the 20% theory.

your arguing apples and oranges. You can shoot deeper into a bigger animal with a the 300 grain 44 magnum but average self defense guns would only have to penetrate some cloth and about 20 inches, your pokin a hole .06 inch difference from 380 to 44 mag. For deer a 22 LR solid makes a hole thru the lungs in and out will result in expiration as well as a 380 FMJ or a 44 magnum. I hunt deer with a 90 grain .25, kills the s-hit out of them, but that's apples and oranges too.

This '20% Theory' says more about human behavior than it does about defense load effectiveness. Most people understand if they catch any bullet in the body between their knees and nose, they will eventually die without emergency.medical attention. This rearranges their priorities toward self-preservation and away from being a predatory azzhole.

Of course there are dead-enders, drug & alcohol anesthetized idiots, determined violent criminals and plain crazy mean bastards.There are also 100+ pound drug-house attack dogs and other two and four legged murder machines, often in multiples. You are going to have to rip their cardiovascular, nervous and skeletal systems apart to stop them. Deer and hogs, while not generally dangerous, have no idea what being shot means and they are going to react to the physical effect, as opposed to the psychological effect of being shot. JWP's statement is correct. Shoot some game and you'll soon learn the value of mastering a handgun with power to spare.

Exactly right.

You are spot on in all regards.

And then there's Jerod Reston, I watched his video again last night and while he took a 230 gr 45 slug in the mouth, leg, butt, thigh, elbow, 2 or 3 in his bulletproof vest, he shot back with 180 grain Winchester HP's from his 40 cal Glock. He hit his assailant multiple times including several A zone hits and only stopped the fight by grabbing the guy and shooting him point blank in the head. The entire shooting lasted 35 seconds.

He now carries a 9mm

Deer aren't large animals and don't require bullets any different from self defense loads. In fact a 200 pound deer is a big deer. So no I'm not comparing apples to oranges. You on the other hand threw in a rifle round. A 380 isn't in the same ball park as a properly loaded +P in 45 ACP.