Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors OT debate

My 24 year old son called me tonight and he wants me to help him buy a 300 Win Mag. I have a 300 Win Mag that I have dragged all over North America in the past 25 years and hope to live long enough to take it to Africa. It has never once let me down. So I am a big fan of the caliber for serious big game hunting. So I say OK, what exactly are you looking for?

First thing he seez is "Well nothing with wood or blued steel".

Him and his buddies love guns and are active shooters, but makes me wonder where the guns we all have now are going to be 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now?

I guess when I was 20 something I was interested in the latest greatest Wizz Bang POW's too, but I have always loved old guns.

These kids going to ever warm up to our old wood and blued steel guns as they get a little longer in the tooth, or are they a new generation of gun owners?

Troublemaker.

That's your answer?

First thing I would say in reply, "you're on your own then, kid!"

Hmmm. I guess things will change whether we want them to or not. At least there are kids interested in shooting, I guess. I bet there were old grey headed flintlock shooters dismayed by the revolutionary new percussion system, muzzleloader shooters who were aghast about cartridge guns, single shot and lever gun men who were leery of bolt guns, and they were all edgy about autoloaders. Yet, still there are devotees of flintlock and percussion muzzleloaders, single shots and lever guns- in an era when bolt guns and autoloaders rock. I betcha there will still be fans of walnut and blue steel far ahead down the road, at least enough to keep classic sensibilities alive.

As long the kids of today are still able to own and shoot firearms when they are retirement age I suppose that's all that really matters. Unless we keep the enemy from the gate it won't be possible for them, and they (the kids of today) also have to develop the resolve to maintain their freedoms or it all becomes a moot point in future decades.

Im guessing that the time will come when the "kids" will look back and say "that old gun dad had was really cool" and start looking for them again if they don't have the one you left them or taught them to shoot with. Until then...corporate marketing, youtube, friends, and social media will likely have more influence on what they think they ought to have and use.

Im with you 99, the old wood and beautifully blued guns are works of art. Even the worn and silver guns have a character and a soul that makes em special.

Composite stocks and stainless steel rifles have a lot going for them, easier maintenance, generally less expensive and you don't have to worry about weather conditions like a fine walnut stock.
You should be proud, He asked for your help which means He respects your opinion and He wants a 300 win mag like your go to rifle. Seems you did a good job of raising him.
If the younger generation will warm up to wood and blued steel is anyone's guess, after all I don't like the same music my Dad did, but everybody that knew my Dad can see the influence he had on me.

Lee

Some will warm up to the old stuff but I think most won’t. One of my concerns is that hunting, fishing and all such regalia will be fighting an increasingly uphill battle with succeeding generations who will come increasingly more comfortable with technologies that allow them to live virtual lives. I appreciate the functionality of plastic stocks and stainless actions and have found them to have certain aesthetic. After all, at its root a firearm is a tool and you really can’t fault such guns for being good representations of that. But some firearms also carry a certain sense of art and it remains to be seen if that quality will be appreciated by those who come behind us. The idealist in me hopes so but the realist says probably not. And that’s just the way it goes.

Damn you Lee.

Brought a tear to my eye...

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Damn you Lee.

Brought a tear to my eye...
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Glad I could help
Enjoy looking for that new rifle with your son!

Lee

Just went over to the Winchester Forum.

Same debate going on over there which I did not realize when I posted. Seems other guys "our age" have the same questions/concerns.

Check it out...

there are youngsters that have
restored my hope for the future

I don’t think it’s isolated to a single make and maybe not even to firearms, though I do appreciate my newer Ford going down the road many more miles than the 68 Fairlane I learned to drive on was capable of.

1. Why did you post this in the Savage forum, does he want it to be a Savage?
2. He's 24, him and his buddies "love guns and are active shooters", why does he need help from his old man? Does he want you to buy it for him?

He COULD get a Savage that fits his specs. Why he'd want to eludes me, too, unless he lives in coastal Alaska or the BC Rain Coast. Snuggling up to a plastic stock has all the appeal to me of a virtual date with a robot; that is to say, none.

Then again maybe the important thing here is a son who actually want’s the “old man’s” advice. There’s an often misquote from Mark Twain the goes something like “ when I was 15 I was amazed at how stupid my father was. When I was 21 I was amazed at how much he’d learned in 6-years.”

Maybe there’s an opportunity here for the kid to get one of each. He gets one plastic and stainless rifle and one walnut and blued one. That sounds like double the fun and, if he doesn’t like the latter, you could always take it off his hands.

But, in the long run, hopefully he gains an appreciation of blue steel and walnut by at least having the opportunity to be in the presence of at least one fine example of Americana. And the only thing better than buying one gun is buying two!

Well it sounds like his son already made the hard part of the decision, knowing what caliber he wants to shoot. Since his father has a 300 winmag, he's already paying attention to him. The rest is just picking what gun you want to shoot, that's the easy part at least to me. Just find one that is comfortable for you to pull up to the shoulder. Parental advice is the reason I have so many .270s, the .270 is my father's answer to about everything. He has taken more of variety of game than anyone I personally know, and he did it all with a .270. Granted he has never shot a Brownie or Grizzly. I'm not touting a .270, to each their own, although I do like them but after using one for 30 years or so, I think I'm going to use a .303S for whitetail this year or maybe a .300S if I can find one I like and want to spend the money on.

BTW, what is "serious big game hunting"? Does this imply that anyone not using a magnum round isn't serious?

My sons all shoot ARs. I still enjoy going to the range with them and hunting with them, though I carry old school firearms in blued/walnut. When it is rainy, I may carry (ah! the horrors!) a painted 99F. I'm just glad they like to shoot, they respect me, and they want me around. They are more precious than my guns.

To me guys of a certain age, especially if they are veterans or currently serving, are not unlike their cohorts from the past. I’m sure the doughboys from WWI got chastised by their dads and grandads for wanting those damn ugly 03s and other bolt guns and not giving one hoot about the lever guns of their day. Not too much unlike today with the AR platform.

It's an off topic debate as the title implies. Asking the members if they think our Savage's and other guns we collect are going to have any appeal to the younger generation(s).

You could have offered an opinion on the topic, like the rest of the guys, instead of trying to stir up a sheet storm.

If you have a son, I bet he thinks you are a dick.

If you are going to pick apart every word I type and turn it into something I didn't say, I'll thank you very much not to respond to any of my posts in the future.

And I will gladly extend you the same courtesy.

You post you off topic bullshit on a public forum and you get all butt hurt when someone doesn't praise your stupidity with anything but positive opinions/responses? You knew it was off topic when you posted it. Then you try to insult me and drag my family into? I won't address anyone in your family but you... [bleep] you, you [bleep] [bleep]. Maybe we'll run into each other at a show or something, and can discuss it in person.

My process to warming up to other than blued steel and walnut started with a Savage 111 grey laminate in .257 Roberts. Shot undawnly good. Then I ventured into Weatherby territory and have a 257 Weatherby mag in Sub MOA Vanguerd with stainless barreled action in a grey black spiderweb stock. Then I picked up a fancy aluminium bedded composite stock for my Remington 30-06 Mountain rifle. I'm now of the humble opinion that you can cherish the past without disregarding the present. There be room in me safe for both.

Haha

Maybe...

You did not extend me the same courtesy, you wanted to try to get the last word. Or you would not have responded. How is asking for clarification of what YOU typed picking apart every word?

I found my buddy a 300 Win mag in a Savage bolt gun for about $500 in new condition. That thing reminded me why I got out of the 300 mag business 25 years ago. The recoil can be described about like this.

You are deaf and blind and tied to a stake in the middle of the railroad tracks. A train with 23 engines and 120 flatbed cars loaded with D9 bulldozers is going 270 miles an hour and hits your stake. ...

He missed the biggest blacktail buck he's ever shot at with it. I can't imagine what could have gone wrong.

I'll put my two cents into the OT portion of this thread. I got a left handed Weatherby Accumark in 300 Weatherby 20 years ago. I like the caliber and have two more West German made deluxe Mark V's that are somewhat collectible. I've hunted in conditions I would not subject the deluxe rifles to. The Accumark is ugly but useful.
Incidentally, it looks like Weatherby is moving to Wyoming.

Mine is a Browning A-bolt composite stalker. Composite stock and parkerized metal. It was one of the first ones to come out with the Boss System. I guess I bought that gun somewhere around 1993. It is very accurate and an easy gun to shoot with the muzzle brake on it. Kicks way less than to 2 308 F's I had. The only bad thing you can say about it is that it is so loud, you can barely stand to shoot the thing even with hearing protection. There isn't anything appealing to the eye about it, but it has been many places that weren't fit for wood an blued steel. Kind of like having a farm truck to drive instead of having to take out the new car. Maybe that is what my son had in mind as well when he told me he didn't want "nothing with wood or blued steel", but it made me think and wonder about his generation of shooters and the guns they think are interesting now and what they might like 30, 40, 50 years from now.


Personally, I'm not sure they are going to be drawn to the old wood and steel guns in the future. I hope I am wrong.

Just curious to know what other guys take was.

Forgot on my last post my Savage 20 Ga 220 bolt action slug gun. Has a camo synthetic stock. Its accurate as any center fire in my safe out to 100 yards. Don't have to worry bout pampering it. In this particular case, I would rather have synthetic than wood. It thrives on abuse.

I've always said that the best all-around .30 rifle may well be a .300 Whatever Magnum. But, I was speaking as a handloader and above all theoretically. A handloader can load it down to tolerably fun levels. For example, a sack full of 150 grain cast bullets at 16-1800 fps is more fun than a brothel full of Korean girls and can be shot up in one sitting without breaking a sweat- darned good for learning the gun and becoming proficient with it. One can then max it out with factory-level jacketed loads and go forth and slay dragons, but it's the rare nimrod who can manage a sack full of full snot .300 Magnums and walk away without a flinch (whether he admits it or not) or a severely drained pocketbook. Those reasons are precisely why I have never once heeded my own advice re: all around-ness.

I like the idea of fixing the lad up with two different rifles, and sitting back and see which one he shows up with next time afield.

Hmmm....

You don't really expect us to buy that do you? Have you been in a brothel full of Korean girls?!!

My son shoots a .300 WM long range and uses a suppressor. Man does that can make a world of difference on noise and recoil!

End of deer season he was filling meat donation tags off of open grain fields at 600 yds setting in his truck bed. He said he felt like one of the old buffalo hunters.

I think this might become my new yardstick by which fun is measured. I’m kinda getting tired of “barrel full of monkeys” thing anyhow; which never really rated as high as a “bucket load of [bleep]” in my big book fun.

Hmmm, for some reason this sight is censoring the shortened version of [bleep]??? Is that a naughty word?

Wow, it doesn’t like the full name either. Oh well, just think Tarzan and Cheetah.

better to hit the bull with a 243, than 6-8 inches off with your super shooting times ultra magnum whatever.. lots of guys make the mistake of buying a big mag and not learning how to shoot it.
myself . I shoot a 270 very well much more than that I really don't want to put in the time to be good with ..besides I'm getting old .

plab

Most bolt actions I been around come outta their stock so easy.

Buy wood if u wanna, put it in a plastic case to hunt.

But I hear ya! Me thinks the golden age of investing in firearms is past us!

I dunno about gnoahhh, but I took out a 303 99 H from the fire,plinking with a peep from the fire, wood stock replaced via the fire, ammo made here on the fire. It was awful fun! But I keep hearing $ 20 dollar make U holler!

I'm sure you made a very good point in there, but my mind went wondering off to that brothel full of Korean girls. After that, it was like Charlie Brown getting chastised by his teacher...."wah-wah, wah-wah, wah- wah-wah".

Edit: Sorry, didn't read down the thread far enough to see that Fireball2 and S99VG already swung at the big meatball down the middle of the plate.

It's interesting to me, but kind of cool, how these threads drift off topic sometimes and develop into a whole different thread.

The 300 "Whatever Magnums" are probably one of the most inherently capable efficient long range loadings on the planet. They shoot flat and with heavy for caliber bullets and deliver a lot of kinetic energy when they get there

Carlos Hathcock won the 1000 yard Wimbelton Cup in 1965 at Camp Perry with a 300 Win Mag before he ever got to Viet Nam and we all know what he did with his Model 70 in 30-06 when he got there.

You don't need to be a genius or a PHD in physics to be able to read a ballistic table

If, you can get past the recoil, which is possible with a muzzle break. However, the recoil reducing muzzle break can produce another flinch resulting from the impending muzzle blast and concussion.

But all that aside, to me, the 300 Win Mag is more like a punch in the arm than the punch is the face my 308 F's used to give me.

Anybody that can shoot a 308 or 358 F can shoot a 300 "Whatever Mag" with a muzzle break.

I'd sooner take the recoil than the muzzle blast. For me a 300 magnum is a lose/lose proposition.

True confession time. I hate recoil. I don't care if it's a .300 Magnum Winchester or a .300 Savage in a M1920 (I got rid of mine because the little bugger was one of the nastiest little kickers I ever owned). I don't like concussive muzzle blast, brake or no brake, and don't like being subjected to it by inconsiderate nimrods at the range so I'm sure no one wants me to subject them to it either.

A big wuss? Maybe. But I developed the Flinch To End All Flinches by the time I quit trap shooting. After over 100,000 shots fired over the course of my pursuing the sport I got to the point where I had to force myself to pull the trigger- my mind simply didn't want yet another belt to the shoulder, and that was with trap loads in a relatively heavy gun. That plus the fact I was getting pretty bored with the game caused me to walk away from it. (It's sad when you run 100 straight often enough that it's no longer an exciting accomplishment.) One of my trap buddies flinched so bad he started lunging forward off the firing line like he was trying to bayonet the clay bird, again with mild loads and a heavy gun. Repetitive firing has a cumulative effect, and by adding heavy sharp magnum recoil to the mix is a recipe for mental disaster for the vast majority of folks, excluding the Macho He-Men, of course (insert sarcasm emoji here).

I have conquered The Flinch, more or less, but I don't wish to court it any more. Guess what, about 95 out of 100 guys who pound themselves with .300/.338/.375 Magnums have flinches to one degree or another, whether they admit it or not. Same goes for the macho types who batter themselves with 3" waterfowl and turkey loads. And it doesn't have to have the word Magnum in its title- it can just as easily be a pisspoor stock design or lightweight, or both. (Witness the .300 M1920 I mentioned at first.)

I love .30-06's, and own four at the moment. I'm not ashamed to admit that to make them manageable I shoot almost entirely reduced loads in them, reserving the full-snot loads for a brief re-sight in before hunting. Just that brief encounter with snappish recoil is enough to make The Flinch start to whisper in my ear. I won't shoot a .300 Magnum for love nor money. I congratulate those who can, as long as they aren't kidding themselves.

Can’t fault the 06 and for most guys shooting out to 1000-yards is a novelty, especially when I hear of so many sighting their rifles in at something much less than 100. Still, the fascination of shooting long distances with a rifle has always been a focal point with me. But it is a novelty and something you can test with any cartridge. However, to get beck on track with this thread we should ask what rifle will your son be buying?

Jeff, we had a saying "shoot Garands in the summer (t-shirts), and shoot Springfields in the winter (padded winter coats)."

Then there was a pic taken at the Springfield Armory test range in the 1930's. It showed a bunch of guys at their benches test firing '03 Springfields with empty brass ankle deep around them. They did that day in and day out, year 'round. What did they do on weekends? They had a rifle club where they would get together--- and shoot.

That prompted a question in my mind. (Yes, my mind is a bizarre thing) I wonder why Savage never fielded an autoloading centerfire rifle? (As long we're sort of off topic.) Every other mother's son had an autoloader in their line ups.

No decision yet.

He seems to be set on a New Haven Model 70 or Browning A bolt. 2 rifles that can be had with the Boss system. Of course there are pro's and cons as have already been discussed.

My son has shot mine and he has done pretty well with it. I have a Winchester model 70 270 featherweight, that he does not enjoy shooting.

Nobody enjoys recoil or concussion. But there are lots of people that learn how to manage it. I make no macho claim to being impervious to concussion or recoil. But just because they are loud and they kick doesn't mean there aren't people that can't learn how to shoot them. When I am shooting mine, I limit my shooting sessions to 10 or 12 rounds I find that if I limit my sessions and focus entirely on my breathing and trigger control it takes my mind off what is going to happen after the trigger breaks clean and smooth. You can't hit a baseball if the only thing you can think about is the pitcher hitting you in the head.

I have taken elk and mule deer with it that were over 400 yards and a bull moose that was over 300. That isn't really all that big of an accomplishment because shooting at moose and at a big bull elk are about like shooting at a pickup truck. Point really being, that if you are going to shoot at big critters that far away the projectile has to still be carrying enough kinetic energy to get the job done. That is where the 300 "Whatever Magnums" separate themselves. They didn't die because I was a good shot, they died because I had the right gun.

A couple things here. One, I have seen that picture and wouldn't you have loved to have had that Springfield job? Although I bet those guys were all stone deaf as hearing protection did not seem to matter much back then. And two, ironically enough didn't Bill Ruger use the 99 as a platform for building a semi-auto rifle? Albeit a one-off in the days before he and Sturm started their company. Still, it's a good question asking why Savage didn't get into the semi-auto rifle business, especially when they were making the 720 copy of the Browning A-5. They could have made their own Model 8 or 81.

Would have been cool to have a scaled up, modified Model 1912 semi-auto in 250 or 300 Savage. Or 35 Rem.

Almost every model 81 (made from 1936-1950) you see is a 300 Savage with an occasional 30 Rem or 35 Rem.

Savage could have had that 81 business with an auto.

It's curious to me that Savage missed all the 35 Rem business from 1909 or so up until the 1960's when the 35 Rem was still a pretty popular round, but Remington saw an opportunity with the 300 Savage before the 308 Win came around and capitalized on it.

That is a mystery lost to history.

Everything gun related stays strong, for the most part. It’s not a daily thing to measure though. Look at the number of SKS guns that sold for $79 not that many years ago are now selling for $400.

Will Savages stay desirable? Definitely. They are not making them anymore and the press / public opinion on them has been fairly positive in the last 10 years.

Pre-64 Model 70s took a hit when word got around that there are bonafide fakes out there. But that is an oddity in the gun world. Aren’t that many fake Savages out there to worry about.

There will always be people who like blue steel and walnut.

Consider yourself lucky he doesn't want an SKS complete with bayonet as his primary hunting rifle. Actually … you do have a very valid point! What will the younger generation collect in the future … if they can afford to collect anything at all.

Fake Savages? Someone could take an 1899A and turn it into a saddle ring carbine. I'm sure there are other possibilities.

Judging from my two 30 something sons, they collect "experiences", not stuff. Me, I like to experience doing things with stuff. They have firearms but do not collect.

It's an off topic debate as the title implies. Asking the members if they think our Savage's and other guns we collect are going to have any appeal to the younger generation(s).

You could have offered an opinion on the topic, like the rest of the guys, instead of trying to stir up a sheet storm.

If you have a son, I bet he thinks you are a dick.



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well said 99, but hey the guy is an expert with 100 post, he needs to get a life