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Even at 1785 fps the 190 Barnes/Hawk bullet carries very near 1000 foot pounds at 150 yards. Dead on at 13 yards puts it 4" low at 150. Very usable trajectory for a woods rifle. Ballistics based on peep sighted rifle/carbine. I am confident the two bullets will expand well out to 150 yards at least. Velocity at 150 is still near 1500 fps.

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Someone once said there are lies, damn lies, and damn statistical lies. While fooling around with the numbers last evening, I calculated the volume in ccs of the volumes of the PPU and Super X brass. 1 kilo=1000grams=1000ml=1000cc at a standard temperature I don't recall and using distilled water. Using Keith Nyst #s for the Win brass capacity combined with my #s of displacement of water by the 190gr Barnes, we get 48.7 gr-11.51 gr=37.1 gr. 37.1 grains/ 15.432 grams/grain =2.404 grams or 2.404 ccs. Using my #s for the ppu with the 190 Barnes Yields 34.84grains /15.432=2.258 ccs. The Varget load was 30 gr. The VMD pf Varget is 0.0731grains per cc. .0731*30=2.193 cc. In the ppu case that would be a case of 2.258 cc with 2.193 ccs of Varget or a case 97.12% full. In the win case of 2.404 cc with 2.193 Varget, it yields a case 91.22% full. another way of looking at it is the win capacity of 2.404 cc minus the ppu capacity of 2.258=0.146cc .146cc/0.0731cc/gr=2.00MORE GRAINS TO FILL THE WIN CASE TO THE SAME LEVEL. Any second now I expect the Black Pepper POPO to descend upon me. Thats the folks that weigh the fly poop in black pepper,covertly sneak into our bedrooms to check for the mattress tags, and other necessary functions of our benevolent Government. None of us used distilled water or heated/ cooled to the unknown temp. And we're not. We're just trying to get close for a reasonable comparison.

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Originally Posted by loggerhead
Thanks to madtrapper 143 and KeithNyst for the capacity info and the loadings with H4895. What brass and primers were utilized with H4895?

PPU brass; CCI 200 primers.

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Had my first test tonight with the Barnes 190 Original loaded in the .303 Savage fed through my 99H. Using new Prvi brass, H4895 and CCI200 primers, I accomplished an average of 1719FPS with 26.1gr (had one rip at 1762?), 1706FPS with 27gr, 1766FPS with 27.5gr and 1803FPS with 28gr. No pressure signs at all. I'm sure I could push it further, but I'm not really sure I need to.

I think I'll accuracy test the 28gr load, but unless it's a massive disappointment, I think a 190 at 1800FPS should be more than enough for deer at less than 125 yards.

Not recommending these powder charges as they're not book loads (at least that I found).

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Thanks!


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I received this e-mail from Barnes this morning asking about recommended impact velocity

"The 190 gr Original was designed for very high weight retention for a lead core bullet. At a muzzle velocity of 1803 you may only see marginal expansion at closer ranges. It will provide extremely deep penetration. With that bullet for deer hunting I would try taking out both front shoulders and the heart. Due to the penetration if taking a direct chest shot it will penetrate most likely from end to end of a deer. If not then the bullet I recommend for that muzzle velocity is our 150 gr TSX FN (30-30) bullet. It only requires a minimum impact velocity of 1450 fps. Yet due to the 100 percent weight retention it will out penetrate any 170 gr lead core bullet. "

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Hmmm. That's kinda sobering. I think I'll stick with my 190 grain soft flat nosed cast bullets. I push them at 1900 fps chrono'ed out of 20" barrels, 2000+fps out of a 24". Being of 10-12 bhn hardness they are, shall we say, expansive.


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Wow, why would they come out with a 190 bullet for the 30-30 that wouldn't expand well at expected velocities? Guess I'll save up some 1-gallon milk jugs and and when I have enough for a couple tests, head to the back field.

Last edited by KeithNyst; 08/08/19.
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Hi all,

I have been busier than a one armed paper hanger just trying to survive this year. But I do have some data for you all on the 190 Gr Barnes bullets and Leverevolution powders out of my 1899 A with a 26" barrel. CCI 200 primers and PPU brass was used in all tests. Usual disclaimer, I have no idea what I am doing so kids, don't you dare try my loads at home!

32 grains of LVR gave an average velocity of 2,157 fps. Average measured primer backing was 0.009" in this rifle.

33 grains of LVR gave an average velocity of 2,169 fps. Average measured primer backing was 0.006" in this rifle.

Some interesting comparisons:

I also fired 180 grain Sierra FN hunters in this rifle with both 33 grains of LVR and 28 grains of 3031.

33 grains of LVR averaged 2,122 fpts, primer backing was 0.009". Not sure why this was slower than the Barnes 190 gr bullets at the same powder charge.

28 grains of 3031 averaged 1,963 fps, primer backing was 0.008". Brass was visibly imprinted by the milling marks in the chamber, where the LVR was not. Looks like LVR gives more V at lower P, which is how it is advertised.

About primer backing. It is obviously specific to each rifle. Here is some data from shooting 150 grain Hornady RN bullets in 4 different rifles with different barrel lengths. Anyone know how much primer backing is considered safe? These do not flatten, so I assume these loads are actually too light to seat the case against the bolt.

Rifle Primer Backing

1899A 0.006
1895 0.005
Saddle 0.008
SRC 0.005

These were the Velocities for 36 gr (I think - don't have my note book handy) LVR and 33.5 gr IMR 4895 in these rifles.

Velocity Summary, 150 GR RN

Rifle Barrel V (LVR) V (4895) Difference
1899A 26" 2347 2232 116
1895 24" 2315 2172 144
Saddle 22" 2286 2187 99
SRC 20" 2206 2127 79



The 150 grain bullets hit too high with factory buckhorn sights on 1899's. The 180's and 190's are pretty close to point of aim at 200 yds.

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Thanks for sharing this information. As to the primer protrusion, I'm not knowledgeable enough to render a verdict. I, too, have protrusion in a model 99, manued in 1929, model "F". Like you, I don't have my notes with me but with the Graf and Sons ammo put up by Hornady, I believe I'm getting about 0.008". It is rated at 2300fps on the box. My thought on the causes are twofold. I have used a fired case as a lap and covered it with JB bore paste to smooth the chamber and it has helped to reduce the protrusion. Also, using a headspace comparator from Hornady, I find the new PPU brass to measure about 1.405". This is the same brass used by Hornady in the above mentioned factory loads. In handloading new PPU brass with a load of 30.5 gr IMR 4064 under a Speer 170 grainer, headspace measurement grows to about 1.412", about the same increase as the factory loads do. If you fire the same case about three times with the sizing die raised the thickness of a nickle above the shell holder, it will expand to fill my chamber-about 1.421". This reduces protrusion down to about 0.002. I measure the case and then decap and measure again to arrive at these numbers. The only drawings of this shell I've found are in # 46 Lyman and Mr. Ken Waters pet loads collection. Both show a hull to be 1.418" from the back of the rim to a datum line(0.400' in dia). Anytime now, some wise ass is going to chime in and tell us that on a rimmed cartridge, headspace is determined by the rim. They are correct but I don't know the term to use to describe this measurement other than headspace. I don't know if there is a SAAMI drawing of the hull and the chamber or not, but I can't find one. Seems like their chamber drawings give a + to the dimensions for the chamber over the hull. I've just got in a 20 rd sample of new Norma cases and will be trying them with some of the loads I've used in the PPU case to determine if this is case specific. I've measured these new cases and they are about 0.001-0.002" shorter in the "headspace" measurement than are the PPU. Also in checking 30-30 Win brass of recent Manu, I find a similar shortness to the "headspace". I used a 2" #6 or #8 brass screw with the primer hole drilled out to accept the screw insert into the case with a washer and nut, both brass, to secure the screww to the hull. Then put a gentle bend to the screw and coat with JB. Took 3 sesions with this rig to show improvement. Be sure and use a fired case that has expanded to fill the chamber diameter and really set down on the nut and get it farmer tight or you will be wasting your time. Can't recall now what size screw I used. Hope something here helps.

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All that stuff about datum lines and case body length is all well and good, but it means nothing unless the case is too long for it to fit in the chamber. Shortness in that regard has no bearing whatsoever as, like was mentioned, these cases' headspace is determined by rim thickness- a too short case body will simply blow out to fill the chamber. Has anybody with "primer protrusion" issues measured their rim thicknesses? Has anybody actually employed a proper set of headspace gauges to determine the headspace of the suspect rifle? How about measured chamber pressure, rather than guesstimated pressure?

Primer protrusion is a result of two things: excess headspace (actual headspace, as measured for a rimmed cartridge, not as measured for a rimless one), and lower than optimal pressure upon discharge. Too low pressure will be insufficient to drive the case firmly back against the bolt face (because of its "grippage" of the chamber wall, and pressure not being sufficient to fully overcome that) but regardless is enough to back the primer out a tad. A well polished chamber will alleviate some of that by reducing the "grippage" of the brass against the chamber wall. But, in the end it doesn't really matter. Those of us who have fired thousands and thousands of reduced loads in rifles have long noted this phenomenon, and shrugged it off.

Guesstimating chamber pressure by measuring primer protrusion is as much voodoo as is observing primer flattening and measuring case head expansion- Ken Waters notwithstanding. He wasn't a god and much of what he preached 40 years ago has since been disproved.


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gnoahh, I seldom attempt to change someone's opinion whether I think it to be correct or not. I agree the late Mr Waters was not a god. I don't have god(s). I and many others have and are willing to share God. A complete self tutorial can be found between Genesis 1 and Revelation 22 inclusive if you so desire. Earlier in this thread you suggested I check with John Barsness to confirm one of your opinions. I've previously asked him 2-3 questions and he replied with timely, informative, and friendly answers. This time I saw no need to. He is a favorite gun writer of mine and I've read many of his magazine articles. I bought 1 of his books the summer of 2016 and another, bought 2 weeks ago. They are the BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK and THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK II. Both are good reads and full of timely info and hope you have or will obtain both. In the first volume in an article dealing with loading the 264 Win, Mr Barness employs the exact method Mr Waters used during his career to develop loads. My opinion is imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, so I think I know the opinion held by Mr. Barsness about Mr Waters. I've not completed Vol II yet, as I've singled out certain topics scattered thru out the book. Saturday pm I was coursing thru it and found, starting around page 90, a section dealing with pressures, brass expansion, and primer protrusion. The next article deals with a rimmed, bottlenecked cartridge and some loads of lower pressure. He too was measuring from a datum line to the the back of the head as an evaluation aid. He also speaks of a very real danger of loading lower pressuure rounds and it is not that of using a slow burning powder to produce a detonation. I suggest you could glean some useful information from these two sections. Of course as you are a student of the gun and having spent a lifetime shooting low pressure rounds you may have ghost written these articles for him. In this world anything is possible. Mr Barsness's wife is also a handloader and author having written a novel, some children's books and several cookbooks. I have one of her cook books as well as the LL Bean cookbook but can not find either a recipe for crow nor humble pie. Bon Appetit

ps--I'm 68+ yrs and have been handloading since Feb of 1972.. My shelves have 42 different set of dies for different calibers as well as several duplicates for different rifles in the same caliber. I have no idea of how many sets I've sold when the arm was traded or sold. I learn something each time I load either for a well known old cartridge or one which is new to me. I'm basically blind in my right eye, not due to a loading accident. Still, no one is as blind as he who will not see.

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Had some time this morning so I did some "science" stuff. The Barnes Original 190 was sectioned length wise. The jacket thickness from the exposed lead point to the crimping groove ( cannelure) measured .030" (same as my Hawk 190 grainers.) Below the groove the jacket thickness increased gradually until it was .056" very near the base. There was no notable "bonding" system just the crimping groove. The lead was very malleable and scratched easily with a thumb nail. I took another Barnes and placed it on the anvil portion of my vice and let a 8 oz. ball peen hammer free fall about 6" to impact it. The exposed lead point easily expanded and upset in a very evenly distributed manner. None of this is conclusive and I can't argue with Barnes Tech. staff but these bullets in my opinion, will expand easily at 1800 to 1900 fps when impacting a game animal. Looking at how they are constructed I believe they hold high weight retention due to the relatively low speeds they are propelled at out of the .303 savage and the old .30WCF. Another Canadian forum member here tested some Barnes 190 grainers in his .307 Winchester. Penetration looked good ( wet paper media) but at 2400 fps the bullets were shedding jackets. It may be possible the Barnes tech was referring to the 190 spire point meant for the .300 heavies like the '06 etc. Just my two cents hope this adds something to the conversation.

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I'd say your surmise is a pretty good one. Barnes originals are advertised to be a pure copper tube filled with pure lead. It wouldn't make sense for them to produce a bullet they identify for a 30-30 and build it too tough to expand at that round's achievable velocity. Never say never though as Hornady did that very thing with a 220 gr interlock FN dedicated to the 375 Win. They kept it in production for a long while before it was discontinued . Barnes also advertise the original to achieve 2X expansion.--cb

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Now that makes sense with the Hornady 220 in the .375 Winchester. I shot a Big Woods Buck with a handloaded 220 in my Marlin 375 (I owned at the time). It was a perfect lung shot at about 50 yards. I could not believe how far that deer went before he dropped. I had snow and he just kept on at a trot for well over 150 yards. I had actually written off that calibre for deer as more appropriate for moose. Always learn something here.

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Thanks Darryl, great info. This makes a lot more sense than the info Barnes CS sent.

Sometime in the next couple months I'll try a reduced H4895 load and fire though some water-filled milk jugs. Hodgdon's reduced load guidance for H4895 is low as 70% of max load. We don't have actual max load data, but if I assume 2 grains below max 30-30 170gr as max for a 190, that puts max at about 28.0, so I'm thinking I'll try something like a 24 grain reduced H4895 load; that ought to get the velocity down around 1650 fps (I actually had 1723fps with 25.5 grains H4895 with the Barnes 190 3030). Should be a good test to see if the bullet expands at that lower velocity (which I bet it will) and a good proxy for what the bullet would do at 100yards with hunting loads.

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Bring a couple rounds with you next week and we'll go up in the woods and whack a doe and settle the debate once and for all. Fire up the spit!!


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Today I fired the Barnes 190 from my 303 Savage through some water-filled gallon milk jugs set at 25 yards.

I used reduced H4895 loads to try to determine if the bullet expands at lower velocity. Had the chrono setup.

I fired once at 1205 fps. The bullet passed through all seven jugs that I had set up. The exit hole of the 7th jug was round and looked to be about the same as the entry hole on the 1st jug … so I’d say no expansion at 1200fps.

Next I fired twice (1485 and 1510fps). Both times, there were two irregular exit holes out the side of the 4th jug; nothing entered the 5th jug. No bullet recovery, but some form of expansion and/or separation occurred based on multiple exit holes.

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Originally Posted by loggerhead
Haven't yet purchased any but have e-mailed them twice asking for load data-once last week and once this week. I have all 4 volumes of their manuals and its not even hinted at in them. Neither is it on their updated load info page on-line but they do say they are working on manual V.

check "ken waters pet loads" that's where I got the info, the 190's did not work for me, BUT did no spend a lot of time increasing powder charge ect

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I know this post is several months old .. Just checking to see you fellows are doing with this 190gr Barnes Bulllet ... Im curious

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