My experience is that when someone is trying to kill you, you will want to kill him first. Being fast and accurate should be the goal and is attainable for most if you put in the work. I started out w/ an M-16 and a .45. Now prefer an AR15 and a 9mm. Once carried a.357 too, still far prefer the 9mm.
mike r
So you decided the 9mm gives you better killing power than a 45?
More rounds on board. Less recoil, so faster follow up shots and, in some hands, perhaps more accurate. Stopping power per round might give a slight edge to the 45 ACP, but likely not enough to justify losses in other departments.
Do I think the best load in a 45 is higher on the ballistic food chain? Yes I do, but the added magazine capacity of the 9mm coupled with the fact that with today’s more effective Ammo the 9mm just makes sense.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
My experience is that when someone is trying to kill you, you will want to kill him first. Being fast and accurate should be the goal and is attainable for most if you put in the work. I started out w/ an M-16 and a .45. Now prefer an AR15 and a 9mm. Once carried a.357 too, still far prefer the 9mm.
mike r
So you decided the 9mm gives you better killing power than a 45?
I know that i am more effective w/ a Glock 19,17 or 34 than I was w/ any of the many .45 guns that I have owned and trained with. Killing power is not a term that I embrace.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that. Craig Douglas ECQC
I bought a Colt 1911 back in 1978. I have lost track of how many rounds I have fired. I have shot stray cats, prairie dogs, and squirrels with it. It is dependable and I am familiar with it. I think of it as an old friend.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
Have any of you gentlemen actually survived a gun battle and decided that you would be better off with a smaller less powerful duty handgun? whelennut
How you shoot is far more important than what you shoot.
I was in my first police shooting in the 90s. Carried a .45.
My last shooting was not too many years ago, and some of you are familiar with the circumstances, which I won't go in to great detail here, since it was a hostage situation and another LEO was shot, a citizen died and a woman was held hostage for hours before it was resolved. For the sake of the living family members of the person who died, and the lady who was terrorized by that scumbag for hours I will not discuss it publicly. The short version is, I used a .40.
Now I mostly carry a 9mm Glock 34/19 at work and a 19/17 when on my own time.
Some days I will carry a 1911 when on my own time. Or a G30S. Or a S&W M29.. or...
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
Have any of you gentlemen actually survived a gun battle and decided that you would be better off with a smaller less powerful duty handgun? whelennut
I have not, but my brother has, NYPD, 80s, 90s. Six shoot outs, at least that’s what he calls them. He was involved in two more that were not on the books :-) out of those six he had 4 hits 3 DOA. I asked him that question he said no, nor did he want to go to a larger caliber. All of his shoot outs were with a 38 special. He carried two guns, a model 10 and either a five shot revolver or a detective special never went out without two guns. shoot outs were up close and personal he was part of the gun squad back in the day, narcotics, street crime unit , Plain clothes his entire career. In the early 90s he was issued a Glock 19, was not a fan of the 9 mm back then only because of poor bullet design. He retired as a detective lives in Manhattan, depending on where he’s going still carries a 38 in his waistband or a Smith and Wesson compact 9 mm. A truly crazy amazing career, the chit they got away with back then.
I have yet to understand why gun makers feel the necessity to create a version of a gun such as the 1911 with tolerance fits that it was never designed to operate under. Your mentioning Wilson 1911 also reminded me of Turnbull making the AR 15 with walnut stock & forearm. Just plumb goofy.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country." Robert E. Lee
Only hits count, and smaller calibers are easier to shoot.
I like how he stresses that taking time to admire your shots can cause you to lose the fight, because the other guy is trying to shot you as fast as he can, as well.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
My feeling is speed is way overrated. If a truly bad person simply wants to kill you the advantage the guy with the gun already out holds is huge. Trying to quick draw under the circumstances is foolish.
Figuring out how to draw without being noticed as a threat is huge. Obviously, being shot at means it is time to draw regardless, but I doubt that situation is anything like as common...[/quote] - Sitka deer
+1
Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.
Only hits count, and smaller calibers are easier to shoot.
I like how he stresses that taking time to admire your shots can cause you to lose the fight, because the other guy is trying to shot you as fast as he can, as well.
Yeah, that guy is good. I've been watching his videos for a while. He really knows his stuff. Amazing considering his age.
My experience is that when someone is trying to kill you, you will want to kill him first. Being fast and accurate should be the goal and is attainable for most if you put in the work. I started out w/ an M-16 and a .45. Now prefer an AR15 and a 9mm. Once carried a.357 too, still far prefer the 9mm.
mike r
My feeling is speed is way overrated. If a truly bad person simply wants to kill you the advantage the guy with the gun already out holds is huge. Trying to quick draw under the circumstances is foolish.
Figuring out how to draw without being noticed as a threat is huge. Obviously, being shot at means it is time to draw regardless, but I doubt that situation is anything like as common...
Sounds like you're confusing a quick draw with the ability to shoot fast accurately. Totally different things.
My experience is that when someone is trying to kill you, you will want to kill him first. Being fast and accurate should be the goal and is attainable for most if you put in the work. I started out w/ an M-16 and a .45. Now prefer an AR15 and a 9mm. Once carried a.357 too, still far prefer the 9mm.
mike r
My feeling is speed is way overrated. If a truly bad person simply wants to kill you the advantage the guy with the gun already out holds is huge. Trying to quick draw under the circumstances is foolish.
Figuring out how to draw without being noticed as a threat is huge. Obviously, being shot at means it is time to draw regardless, but I doubt that situation is anything like as common...
Sounds like you're confusing a quick draw with the ability to shoot fast accurately. Totally different things.
No offense intended but isn't shooting accurately, fast, better?
My experience is that when someone is trying to kill you, you will want to kill him first. Being fast and accurate should be the goal and is attainable for most if you put in the work. I started out w/ an M-16 and a .45. Now prefer an AR15 and a 9mm. Once carried a.357 too, still far prefer the 9mm.
mike r
My feeling is speed is way overrated. If a truly bad person simply wants to kill you the advantage the guy with the gun already out holds is huge. Trying to quick draw under the circumstances is foolish.
Figuring out how to draw without being noticed as a threat is huge. Obviously, being shot at means it is time to draw regardless, but I doubt that situation is anything like as common...
Sounds like you're confusing a quick draw with the ability to shoot fast accurately. Totally different things.
No, I do not think so. I think I am commenting on a mindset that fails to understand the need to use all available information before drawing. If drawing quickly is the goal, have at it. My goal would be surviving and in the vast majority of cases the bad guy already has his gun in his hand when you suddenly recognize the need to do the same. But at that point a quick draw is probably not the right answer.
If you have more than a single tool (mindset) the whole world will not look like a nail...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
My experience is that when someone is trying to kill you, you will want to kill him first. Being fast and accurate should be the goal and is attainable for most if you put in the work. I started out w/ an M-16 and a .45. Now prefer an AR15 and a 9mm. Once carried a.357 too, still far prefer the 9mm.
mike r
My feeling is speed is way overrated. If a truly bad person simply wants to kill you the advantage the guy with the gun already out holds is huge. Trying to quick draw under the circumstances is foolish.
Figuring out how to draw without being noticed as a threat is huge. Obviously, being shot at means it is time to draw regardless, but I doubt that situation is anything like as common...
Sounds like you're confusing a quick draw with the ability to shoot fast accurately. Totally different things.
No, I do not think so. I think I am commenting on a mindset that fails to understand the need to use all available information before drawing. If drawing quickly is the goal, have at it. My goal would be surviving and in the vast majority of cases the bad guy already has his gun in his hand when you suddenly recognize the need to do the same. But at that point a quick draw is probably not the right answer.
If you have more than a single tool (mindset) the whole world will not look like a nail...
You are the one who brought up quick draw, nobody else. The guy you replied to appears to have been talking about shooting fast accurately, i.e. putting multiple rounds on target in a hurry.
My experience is that when someone is trying to kill you, you will want to kill him first. Being fast and accurate should be the goal and is attainable for most if you put in the work. I started out w/ an M-16 and a .45. Now prefer an AR15 and a 9mm. Once carried a.357 too, still far prefer the 9mm.
mike r
My feeling is speed is way overrated. If a truly bad person simply wants to kill you the advantage the guy with the gun already out holds is huge. Trying to quick draw under the circumstances is foolish.
Figuring out how to draw without being noticed as a threat is huge. Obviously, being shot at means it is time to draw regardless, but I doubt that situation is anything like as common...
Sounds like you're confusing a quick draw with the ability to shoot fast accurately. Totally different things.
No, I do not think so. I think I am commenting on a mindset that fails to understand the need to use all available information before drawing. If drawing quickly is the goal, have at it. My goal would be surviving and in the vast majority of cases the bad guy already has his gun in his hand when you suddenly recognize the need to do the same. But at that point a quick draw is probably not the right answer.
If you have more than a single tool (mindset) the whole world will not look like a nail...
You are the one who brought up quick draw, nobody else. The guy you replied to appears to have been talking about shooting fast accurately, i.e. putting multiple rounds on target in a hurry.
You may very well be right... I may have stepped out in front of things here. In my defense I have been showing some young fellers how to shoot lately and YouTube has given them all sorts of goofy ideas about their need to practice nothing but quick draw. It is sad...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Actually, going back and rereading it, I stand by my responses. It is not a stretch to think quick draw was on the table. Not intended as an argument, just a discussion.
One thing I have been telling these guys repeatedly is how important it is to look around constantly. The notion they will be drawing fire if something bad happens and how their companions should get as far away from them as possible, for example.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
SD, TRH posts some good vides from Active Self Protection (ASP) channel on Youtube.
Couple of things John always says is:
Never draw from the drop. Wait your turn Know your go signal.
In other words, no, you can't outdraw someone who's got a gun pointed at you, so you have to wait and see if an opportunity presents itself, or if one can be created, and when it is, jump on it.
There's one video I was looking for, out of Brazil, where a guy try's to rob an off duty cop in a train station. While the guns' pointed at him, cop sets down is wallet, then ducks around a couple of people, pulling his gun while behind this cover, before emerging to smoke the bad guy with some quick, well placed shots.
In that situation, your premise held that drawing from the drop was a bad idea, but once the opportunity was presented, it was time to get the gun into action quickly and put accurate rapid fire on target.
From a logical standpoint, it's a case of "one does not cancel the other", and it's good to have a full tool kit.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
SD, TRH posts some good vides from Active Self Protection (ASP) channel on Youtube.
Couple of things John always says is:
Never draw from the drop. Wait your turn Know your go signal.
In other words, no, you can't outdraw someone who's got a gun pointed at you, so you have to wait and see if an opportunity presents itself, or if one can be created, and when it is, jump on it.
There's one video I was looking for, out of Brazil, where a guy try's to rob an off duty cop in a train station. While the guns' pointed at him, cop sets down is wallet, then ducks around a couple of people, pulling his gun while behind this cover, before emerging to smoke the bad guy with some quick, well placed shots.
In that situation, your premise held that drawing from the drop was a bad idea, but once the opportunity was presented, it was time to get the gun into action quickly and put accurate rapid fire on target.
From a logical standpoint, it's a case of "one does not cancel the other", and it's good to have a full tool kit.
That is stuff my father was telling me about 50 years ago when i got my first handgun and thought speed was critical... i agree completely.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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