They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old: Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them.
The term pavlova came about when a Russian ballerina toured the Antipodes ( both Aus and NZ) 1926 and a meringue based dessert was whipped up and named in her honor,
however such meringue type based desserts existed in Europe centuries before.
Dr .Woods from NZ and Oz lady by name Utrecht, have together heavily researched the subject and both came to that conclusion, finding many such old recipes that date well before 20th century.
" They followed the history back to German-speaking Habsburgs, whose power extended over much of Europe from the 15th to 18th centuries. The Habsburgs had a fixation for all things Spanish including "one of the most stunning cakes" called a Spanische Windtorte, a complicated combination of meringue, fruit and cream.
As German-speaking immigrants moved to America, they brought with them meringue-based desserts called schaum torte (which translates as foam cake) and baiser torte (commonly known now as Kiss Cake). A large proportion of these immigrants settled in the mid-west of America where Wood and Utrect began picking up pockets of these recipes. "
NZ and Oz can argue all they want about taking credit, , but all they can really take credit for is giving an old dessert a new name.
and had NZ remained as part of the penal Colony of NSW Australia, there would be no argument ..
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
The ANZAC biscuit, was also in existence well before it got its new name, which is an acronym that came in after Gallipoli.
It dated back to the early part of 1800s, taking on various names over time; surprise biscuits, crispies, Red Cross biscuits, soldier biscuits, hardtack biscuits, Anzac wafer, Anzac tile, etc.
Aus and NZ have laws that tell you they must be called Anzac biscuits,.. ie; its unlawful to call them cookies. ..
and one is required to adhere to the 'traditional' recipe if you want to call it an Anzac biscuit,
however, household recipes dating from before and after WW1, can vary from that used for commercial war time production. *** ***
Overall just so much myth and bullcrap surrounding the ANZACS that's slowly but surely coming to light. and some good books have been written soberly revealing such. .. Many soldiers letters from military archives in Oz and UK are showing just how much BS was spread back in the wAr for propaganda reasons and then the myths further built around that stuff in the century following. nOt to tell the truth and stick with convenient legend and myth narratives does not do the soldiers of the time true justice...IMO.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
It was their chance to really prove themselves as new nations, Aus and NZ had only in recent yrs before WW1 gained Dominion status.
In the case of Aus. it had become a Federation in 1901, ..during Second Boer war Australia had initially contributed a variety of militia groups from its independent colonies, then during the war they formed into and fought as a Commonwealth Force.
Essentially the Boer War was Australias first military involvement as a nation, yet it aint talk about nearly as much.
A big thing about WW1 was that Aus troops now came under Australian command. and they achieved some mighty important results for the war effort. ..
Originally Posted by Seafire
for the King and Crown...
Indeed , but when British royals visited Australian repatriation hospitals, they didn't get a very nice welcome from veterans.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Lt. Morant was English born and was actually part of a British regiment called 'Bushveldt Carbineers' formed in South Africa. however it was commanded by an Aus Colonel.
Morants own defence council Mjr Thomas, took particular exception and often protested to him being refered to as an Australian. even sending correspondence to media publications long after Morants death to stress;
"Morant was not an Australian, he was an Englishman, who came to this country for 'colonial experience'.
Harry "Breaker" Harbord Morant , are names he adopted apon settling in Australia, his birth name was Edwin Henry Murrant.
****
It may be of interest to some that It was Australian veterans of WW1 that formed the famous QANTAS airline.
> Paul McGuinness served at Gallipoli - Light Horse, was one of the few wounded survivors of the charge at The Nek and soon after joined the Flying Corp. a gunner with 7 aerial victories. > Hudson Fysh served at Gallipoli -light Horse,..Egypt and Palestine, then transferred to Flying Corp as a gunner with 5 aerial victories. > Fergus McMaster served on the Western Front as a field gunner at Amiens, Villers-Bretonneux and Hamel and lost a son over the skies of Germany in WW2. > Arthur Baird took his engineering skills to the Flying Corp and served as a flight sergeant, Palestine. His skills were extremely important in keeping those old mechanical birds in the air..!!
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Yes, Morant was an Englishman. And a murderous one too.
It was different then though - NZ and Aus were still very much part of England and its empire and kept a colonial outlook. And if you weren't English or Scottish then often your parents were. The distinction was not what it is today - but, the ANZAC's in WW1 were the beginning of a proper national consciousness that hadn't happened prior. The patriotism of that war, sentimental or contrived or not, elevated the countries self respect. You drive around the little country towns in NZ, and I imagine it is the same in Australia, and the names of the dead on war memorials are two or three times the number of the second world war.
"A person that carries a cat home by the tail will receive information that will always be useful to him." Mark Twain
The legal debate concerning Morant and his convicted BVC regiment cohorts continues.
Its said Morant had earlier been reprimanded for bringing in Boer prisoners and an Aus military lawyer has( from British archives) what he believes is supporting evidence of their original defence argument that they were simply following orders 'not to take prisoners in the Spelonken'
The BVC were an irregular unconventional tactic mounted guerrilla force formed to take on the guerrilla tactic Boers. The order they received not to take prisoners is alleged to be supported by archived transcripts of British parliamentary debate over concerns for having such an approach.
The claim is that they [Morant*, Handcock* and Witton] were found guilty and executed* in an act of expediency to facilitate the peace talks, as there was also worry on the British side Germany may decide to enter the conflict.
Thus in the big picture/grand scheme of things, it made practical sense to throw a few of ones own pawns under the bus?
...forward to 1982 Falklands War, British Paras on their advance through Argentinian defensive positions didn't have the capacity to cater for POW , so the did the pragmatic and executed them. ....don't know of any British soldiers that have faced trial for those actions.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Morant was indeed murderous regardless of his motivation, and the political issue at the time was over English control of Australian troops, which was unpopular at home. There is no real doubt that Morant killed those people, although popular legend today is that he was somehow railroaded and executed as an innocent man. (As far as I can tell mostly based on the poetry he wrote while waiting in prison, of all things.) I don't recall any defence being mounted regarding "following orders" at the time, but its a long time since I read about the trial. (And frankly, he would, and still should have, been shot with that defence I think.)
Do you have a source for the executing of Argentine prisoners in the Falklands?
Last edited by CarlsenHighway; 05/08/19.
"A person that carries a cat home by the tail will receive information that will always be useful to him." Mark Twain
" All parties agree – even Morant and Handcock admitted it – that the men shot the prisoners. The main issue concerns the justice of the convictions and the sentences. ...
...They admitted shooting 12 Boer prisoners, but claimed they had received orders to take no prisoners."
Originally Posted by CarlsenHighway
Do you have a source for the executing of Argentine prisoners in the Falklands?
NCO Corporal Vincent Bramley, 3rd Battalion, Parachute Regiment...battle of Mount Longdon.
described how, after the mountain was won, wounded and captured Argentines were arbritarily bayoneted and shot. He suggests that some of the dead were mutilated, their ears cut off as trophies.
"....A group of our guys had assembled some Argie prisoners on a cliff above where we had dug a body pit for their dead. Now, with the battle over, they were shooting prisoners and toppling them down to be buried. It was an outrage and senior officers stepped in immediately before the executions could get out of hand. But in the cauldron of emotions after the battle they decided not to take further action. Court martials were the last thing we needed."
Events described have been confirmed by other paratroopers.
British Officers who served at the Falklands and then became career politicians seemed to demonstrate reluctance in wanting the MOD to conduct an inquiry concerning such claims by other veterans of the conflict.
It gets more murky and politically complicated when claims include the capture and execution of foreign mercenaries which were alleged to include soldier of fortune Americans.
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