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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by widrahthaar
“Pocket 380 is only good if you never use it”

Odd comment for somebody carrying a 9mm 1911.

LOL. He's an old man who can't handle .45 ACP anymore.


LOL indeed..

Dude, When I say this, I do so with all sincerity. You quite frankly don't measure up to a pimple on that "old man's" butt...

That "old man" has accomplished more in a mere fraction of his lifetime than you will ever dream of, and that is a fact.

A Green Beret, Deputy Sheriff, and one of Jeff Cooper's first instructors at Gunsite, Ken is a true icon in the firearms industry to put it mildly.

He is also a founding member of both shooting sports IPSC and IDPA.

Just to lay some cards on the table, Ken Hackathorn is a good friend.


[Linked Image]

If for even a second you think he can't handle a .45 these days.. well, keep believing that and underestimate him.

Ken can hammer rounds out of a .44 magnum like it is nobody's business.

In fact here is a pic from a couple years ago at my cabin. Ken and I were discussing 5" Model 29 44 magnums, Elmer Keith etc

while waiting for the Solar Eclipse that was about to happen, while the rest of the crew were eating, socializing and doing what wives and kids do,


[Linked Image]

He has a "Bear Defense" drill that is shot with full power .44 Magnum, .45 Colt and up (up to and including 500mag) that is done in a very compressed time frame.

Ken can clean it. The short version is, Ken can handle the big boomers fine, he simply is smart about not abusing his hands and wrists, as is wise to do for a man who makes his living like he does.

I do the same thing with my .44 magnums. I don't shoot full tilt 300+ grain/Max H110 loads all the time. In fact they make up a small percentage of my .44 shooting, as the medium loads meet my needs quite well for most my tasks. I reserve the top end loads for the less than 10% of the tasks that require them.

Ken shoots an inordinate amount of handgun ammo, and it takes a toll. Shooting 9mm for classes and training makes sense.

For further clarification


Ken does not carry a 9mm 1911. He primarily carries a Commander length 1911 in .45 as his carry gun. He however practices with a 9mm for the most part.



LOL indeed. For a guy who could not make the cut to get into the police academy ,never served in the military, is scared to death of 'Negroes in pickup trucks" not to mention is so scared of his own shadow that he has a gun in a ziploc bag in the shower with him, (and carries nun chuks) I find it pretty ironic that you would bash a guy like Ken Hackathorn.

When was the last time that (H&K) Heckler and Koch called you and said "Please come to Oberndorf Germany. We would like you and your friend from Delta (Larry Vickers) to design a gun for SEAL Team 6. The result was the H&K45 Compact, which is by all accounts a phenomenal gun.

Ken travels frequently OCONUS to train some of our allies whom I will not name here. Apparently those country's premier hostage rescue/counter terror units think highly enough of the feeble old man that they fly him around the globe to train them up.




LOL indeed!



He can flat out hammer with an M1 Garand too!



[Linked Image]


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Hoping to get an introduction my next time out...

Is that the Jeff Cooper book I sent to you that he is holding...?

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Good, solid post Mac.

i've enjoyed, and gotten some benefit--from his works over the past 35 years. you're fortunate he lives in your neck of the woods.

I don't understand all the disparaging remarks about some of the "old-timers", who most assuredly laid the critical foundations that everyone benefits from today.

this happened in a post here awhile back--remarks about the "old" way of doing things, and it not being relevant to what is done today...

back when i read that disparaging post, I thought of pioneer Robert Goddard, who did his testing in the 20's, 30's, and 40's, and wrote the work called A Method Of Reaching Extreme Altitudes, which i read in 1973. about during that same time Von Braun was doing work likewise.

without those critical so called efforts, the moon would not have been reached....


all learning is like a funnel:
however, contrary to popular thought, one begins with the the narrow end.
the more you progress, the more it expands into greater discovery--and the less of an audience you will have...
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Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by widrahthaar
“Pocket 380 is only good if you never use it”

Odd comment for somebody carrying a 9mm 1911.

LOL. He's an old man who can't handle .45 ACP anymore.


LOL indeed..

Dude, When I say this, I do so with all sincerity. You quite frankly don't measure up to a pimple on that "old man's" butt...

That "old man" has accomplished more in a mere fraction of his lifetime than you will ever dream of, and that is a fact.

A Green Beret, Deputy Sheriff, and one of Jeff Cooper's first instructors at Gunsite, Ken is a true icon in the firearms industry to put it mildly.

He is also a founding member of both shooting sports IPSC and IDPA.

Just to lay some cards on the table, Ken Hackathorn is a good friend.


[Linked Image]

If for even a second you think he can't handle a .45 these days.. well, keep believing that and underestimate him.

Ken can hammer rounds out of a .44 magnum like it is nobody's business.

In fact here is a pic from a couple years ago at my cabin. Ken and I were discussing 5" Model 29 44 magnums, Elmer Keith etc

while waiting for the Solar Eclipse that was about to happen, while the rest of the crew were eating, socializing and doing what wives and kids do,


[Linked Image]

He has a "Bear Defense" drill that is shot with full power .44 Magnum, .45 Colt and up (up to and including 500mag) that is done in a very compressed time frame.

Ken can clean it. The short version is, Ken can handle the big boomers fine, he simply is smart about not abusing his hands and wrists, as is wise to do for a man who makes his living like he does.

I do the same thing with my .44 magnums. I don't shoot full tilt 300+ grain/Max H110 loads all the time. In fact they make up a small percentage of my .44 shooting, as the medium loads meet my needs quite well for most my tasks. I reserve the top end loads for the less than 10% of the tasks that require them.

Ken shoots an inordinate amount of handgun ammo, and it takes a toll. Shooting 9mm for classes and training makes sense.

For further clarification


Ken does not carry a 9mm 1911. He primarily carries a Commander length 1911 in .45 as his carry gun. He however practices with a 9mm for the most part.



LOL indeed. For a guy who could not make the cut to get into the police academy ,never served in the military, is scared to death of 'Negroes in pickup trucks" not to mention is so scared of his own shadow that he has a gun in a ziploc bag in the shower with him, (and carries nun chuks) I find it pretty ironic that you would bash a guy like Ken Hackathorn.

When was the last time that (H&K) Heckler and Koch called you and said "Please come to Oberndorf Germany. We would like you and your friend from Delta (Larry Vickers) to design a gun for SEAL Team 6. The result was the H&K45 Compact, which is by all accounts a phenomenal gun.

Ken travels frequently OCONUS to train some of our allies whom I will not name here. Apparently those country's premier hostage rescue/counter terror units think highly enough of the feeble old man that they fly him around the globe to train them up.




LOL indeed!



He can flat out hammer with an M1 Garand too!



[Linked Image]



TRH stepped on his dick again! As you know anyone that’s shot living tissue with both know a properly loaded 45 is higher on the food chain, just as Ken stated.




Last edited by jwp475; 04/28/19.


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Originally Posted by Hi_Vel


Good, solid post Mac.

i've enjoyed, and gotten some benefit--from his works over the past 35 years. you're fortunate he lives in your neck of the woods.

I don't understand all the disparaging remarks about some of the "old-timers", who most assuredly laid the critical foundations that everyone benefits from today.

this happened in a post here awhile back--remarks about the "old" way of doing things, and it not being relevant to what is done today...


back when i read that disparaging post, I thought of pioneer Robert Goddard, who did his testing in the 20's, 30's, and 40's, and wrote the work called A Method Of Reaching Extreme Altitudes, which i read in 1973. about during that same time Von Braun was doing work likewise.

without those critical so called efforts, the moon would not have been reached....


“You should tell someone what you know. There should be a history, so that men can learn from it.”
He smiled. “Men do not learn from history. Each generation believes itself brighter than the last, each believes it can survive the mistakes of the older ones. Each discovers each old thing and they throw up their hands and say ‘See! Look what I have found! Look upon what I know!’ And each believes it is something new.”

Louis L’Amour
The Californios


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Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by widrahthaar
“Pocket 380 is only good if you never use it”

Odd comment for somebody carrying a 9mm 1911.

LOL. He's an old man who can't handle .45 ACP anymore.


LOL indeed..

Dude, When I say this, I do so with all sincerity. You quite frankly don't measure up to a pimple on that "old man's" butt...

That "old man" has accomplished more in a mere fraction of his lifetime than you will ever dream of, and that is a fact.

A Green Beret, Deputy Sheriff, and one of Jeff Cooper's first instructors at Gunsite, Ken is a true icon in the firearms industry to put it mildly.

He is also a founding member of both shooting sports IPSC and IDPA.

Just to lay some cards on the table, Ken Hackathorn is a good friend.


[Linked Image]

If for even a second you think he can't handle a .45 these days.. well, keep believing that and underestimate him.

Ken can hammer rounds out of a .44 magnum like it is nobody's business.

In fact here is a pic from a couple years ago at my cabin. Ken and I were discussing 5" Model 29 44 magnums, Elmer Keith etc

while waiting for the Solar Eclipse that was about to happen, while the rest of the crew were eating, socializing and doing what wives and kids do,


[Linked Image]

He has a "Bear Defense" drill that is shot with full power .44 Magnum, .45 Colt and up (up to and including 500mag) that is done in a very compressed time frame.

Ken can clean it. The short version is, Ken can handle the big boomers fine, he simply is smart about not abusing his hands and wrists, as is wise to do for a man who makes his living like he does.

I do the same thing with my .44 magnums. I don't shoot full tilt 300+ grain/Max H110 loads all the time. In fact they make up a small percentage of my .44 shooting, as the medium loads meet my needs quite well for most my tasks. I reserve the top end loads for the less than 10% of the tasks that require them.

Ken shoots an inordinate amount of handgun ammo, and it takes a toll. Shooting 9mm for classes and training makes sense.

For further clarification


Ken does not carry a 9mm 1911. He primarily carries a Commander length 1911 in .45 as his carry gun. He however practices with a 9mm for the most part.



LOL indeed. For a guy who could not make the cut to get into the police academy ,never served in the military, is scared to death of 'Negroes in pickup trucks" not to mention is so scared of his own shadow that he has a gun in a ziploc bag in the shower with him, (and carries nun chuks) I find it pretty ironic that you would bash a guy like Ken Hackathorn.

When was the last time that (H&K) Heckler and Koch called you and said "Please come to Oberndorf Germany. We would like you and your friend from Delta (Larry Vickers) to design a gun for SEAL Team 6. The result was the H&K45 Compact, which is by all accounts a phenomenal gun.

Ken travels frequently OCONUS to train some of our allies whom I will not name here. Apparently those country's premier hostage rescue/counter terror units think highly enough of the feeble old man that they fly him around the globe to train them up.




LOL indeed!



He can flat out hammer with an M1 Garand too!



[Linked Image]

STFU, you pretentious ass! Everybody gets old, and he admits it. Nothing wrong with modifying your caliber choice in response to it.

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The root of pretentious is pretend, I think it is apparent whom is pretending.and who has the creds.


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It was written to limit the power of government over the individual
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I remember reading and enjoying his articles.


A while ago, must been 20 years ago....someone said he had students shooting down range sorta towards each other. Shoot the target next to the guy down range.....simulated stress deal.




Never saw any of his articles around after that.



I was pleased to see that he was putting content out again a while back.


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There's only one way you gain people's respect, you earn it, Ken Hackathorn has earned it many times over. We do a real dis service to those that pioneered many of the things we hand gunners take for granted when we cheap shot them. Many, many hand gunners have benefited from Ken Hackathorns wealth of hand gun knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Idaho1945
There's only one way you gain people's respect, you earn it, Ken Hackathorn has earned it many times over. We do a real dis service to those that pioneered many of the things we hand gunners take for granted when we cheap shot them. Many, many hand gunners have benefited from Ken Hackathorns wealth of hand gun knowledge.

Dick

Agreed. I think I've been very clear in the three threads on the man that I admire and respect him. I was laughing at someone's comment wherein he pointed out that Hackathorn harshly criticized .380 but (it appeared at the time) he trusted the 9mm. In actuality, however, he was being critical of the types of handguns .380 is typically chambered in. Stating that a man, who clearly refers to himself as getting quite old (and admittedly having difficulty with .45 ACP as a result), is exactly that, is no disrespect, yet this was twisted into a statement of disrespect.

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Some have very strong opinions about everything, the older you get the more ridged your opinions become. OTOH I am sure I could learn a lot from Ken however his position on the .380 is just that, an opinion. Data from thousands of pistol shootings say that all pistols within a certain velocity range are very similar. Skill with a pistol, baseball bat, basketball or football does not automatically imbue the practitioner with technical knowledge on say, how the baseball or bat is made and the physics surrounding their mutual impact..... Similarly us humans can all look at the same data and see something different depending on our prejudices. I would like to meet him, as he is a legend, but just because we disagree with someone's opinions does not mean we are personally attacking that person, we simply disagree.


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Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by widrahthaar
“Pocket 380 is only good if you never use it”

Odd comment for somebody carrying a 9mm 1911.

LOL. He's an old man who can't handle .45 ACP anymore.


LOL indeed..

Dude, When I say this, I do so with all sincerity. You quite frankly don't measure up to a pimple on that "old man's" butt...

That "old man" has accomplished more in a mere fraction of his lifetime than you will ever dream of, and that is a fact.

A Green Beret, Deputy Sheriff, and one of Jeff Cooper's first instructors at Gunsite, Ken is a true icon in the firearms industry to put it mildly.

He is also a founding member of both shooting sports IPSC and IDPA.

Just to lay some cards on the table, Ken Hackathorn is a good friend.


[Linked Image]

If for even a second you think he can't handle a .45 these days.. well, keep believing that and underestimate him.

Ken can hammer rounds out of a .44 magnum like it is nobody's business.

In fact here is a pic from a couple years ago at my cabin. Ken and I were discussing 5" Model 29 44 magnums, Elmer Keith etc

while waiting for the Solar Eclipse that was about to happen, while the rest of the crew were eating, socializing and doing what wives and kids do,


[Linked Image]

He has a "Bear Defense" drill that is shot with full power .44 Magnum, .45 Colt and up (up to and including 500mag) that is done in a very compressed time frame.

Ken can clean it. The short version is, Ken can handle the big boomers fine, he simply is smart about not abusing his hands and wrists, as is wise to do for a man who makes his living like he does.

I do the same thing with my .44 magnums. I don't shoot full tilt 300+ grain/Max H110 loads all the time. In fact they make up a small percentage of my .44 shooting, as the medium loads meet my needs quite well for most my tasks. I reserve the top end loads for the less than 10% of the tasks that require them.

Ken shoots an inordinate amount of handgun ammo, and it takes a toll. Shooting 9mm for classes and training makes sense.

For further clarification


Ken does not carry a 9mm 1911. He primarily carries a Commander length 1911 in .45 as his carry gun. He however practices with a 9mm for the most part.



LOL indeed. For a guy who could not make the cut to get into the police academy ,never served in the military, is scared to death of 'Negroes in pickup trucks" not to mention is so scared of his own shadow that he has a gun in a ziploc bag in the shower with him, (and carries nun chuks) I find it pretty ironic that you would bash a guy like Ken Hackathorn.

When was the last time that (H&K) Heckler and Koch called you and said "Please come to Oberndorf Germany. We would like you and your friend from Delta (Larry Vickers) to design a gun for SEAL Team 6. The result was the H&K45 Compact, which is by all accounts a phenomenal gun.

Ken travels frequently OCONUS to train some of our allies whom I will not name here. Apparently those country's premier hostage rescue/counter terror units think highly enough of the feeble old man that they fly him around the globe to train them up.




LOL indeed!



He can flat out hammer with an M1 Garand too!



[Linked Image]


Ouch! Experience trumping theory again.......


Biden's most truthful quote ever came during his first press conference, 03/25/21.
Drum roll please...... "I don't know, to be clear." and THAT is one promise he's kept!!!
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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by widrahthaar
“Pocket 380 is only good if you never use it”

Odd comment for somebody carrying a 9mm 1911.

LOL. He's an old man who can't handle .45 ACP anymore.


LOL indeed..

Dude, When I say this, I do so with all sincerity. You quite frankly don't measure up to a pimple on that "old man's" butt...

That "old man" has accomplished more in a mere fraction of his lifetime than you will ever dream of, and that is a fact.

A Green Beret, Deputy Sheriff, and one of Jeff Cooper's first instructors at Gunsite, Ken is a true icon in the firearms industry to put it mildly.

He is also a founding member of both shooting sports IPSC and IDPA.

Just to lay some cards on the table, Ken Hackathorn is a good friend.


[Linked Image]

If for even a second you think he can't handle a .45 these days.. well, keep believing that and underestimate him.

Ken can hammer rounds out of a .44 magnum like it is nobody's business.

In fact here is a pic from a couple years ago at my cabin. Ken and I were discussing 5" Model 29 44 magnums, Elmer Keith etc

while waiting for the Solar Eclipse that was about to happen, while the rest of the crew were eating, socializing and doing what wives and kids do,


[Linked Image]

He has a "Bear Defense" drill that is shot with full power .44 Magnum, .45 Colt and up (up to and including 500mag) that is done in a very compressed time frame.

Ken can clean it. The short version is, Ken can handle the big boomers fine, he simply is smart about not abusing his hands and wrists, as is wise to do for a man who makes his living like he does.

I do the same thing with my .44 magnums. I don't shoot full tilt 300+ grain/Max H110 loads all the time. In fact they make up a small percentage of my .44 shooting, as the medium loads meet my needs quite well for most my tasks. I reserve the top end loads for the less than 10% of the tasks that require them.

Ken shoots an inordinate amount of handgun ammo, and it takes a toll. Shooting 9mm for classes and training makes sense.

For further clarification


Ken does not carry a 9mm 1911. He primarily carries a Commander length 1911 in .45 as his carry gun. He however practices with a 9mm for the most part.



LOL indeed. For a guy who could not make the cut to get into the police academy ,never served in the military, is scared to death of 'Negroes in pickup trucks" not to mention is so scared of his own shadow that he has a gun in a ziploc bag in the shower with him, (and carries nun chuks) I find it pretty ironic that you would bash a guy like Ken Hackathorn.

When was the last time that (H&K) Heckler and Koch called you and said "Please come to Oberndorf Germany. We would like you and your friend from Delta (Larry Vickers) to design a gun for SEAL Team 6. The result was the H&K45 Compact, which is by all accounts a phenomenal gun.

Ken travels frequently OCONUS to train some of our allies whom I will not name here. Apparently those country's premier hostage rescue/counter terror units think highly enough of the feeble old man that they fly him around the globe to train them up.




LOL indeed!



He can flat out hammer with an M1 Garand too!



[Linked Image]

STFU, you pretentious ass! Everybody gets old, and he admits it. Nothing wrong with modifying your caliber choice in response to it.


TRH, you're wrong in this.


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Originally Posted by MOGC

TRH, you're wrong in this.




Where? He as much as said he can't tolerate .45 ACP as his regular training round. His reason relates to advancing age, which one would assume refers to arthritis. I wasn't laughing at this. My LOL had to do with someone's point that he decried .380 ACP as near useless while appearing to put his trust in 9mm. I hadn't yet realized that his criticism of .380 had to do more with the guns so chambered, not the round itself. You folks make out like I was laughing at the man for not being able to handle .45 ACP due to advanced age. Not the case, although I can see how someone looking to criticize would jump to that wrong conclusion. Makes no sense, however, since I already stated I enjoyed his video, and in fact I was the one who first posted it.

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I thought his comments about the .380 and small pistols were ridiculous. Unless he's just saying them in jest. Doesn't mean I have some burning hatred for Ken Hackathorn.

And yes, somebody just posted a video the other day with him explaining he can't handle the .45 ACP like he used to due to age/exposure to the round and that's why he shoots a 9mm.


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I don't handle extra-heavy 45 Colt as well as I used to so I get that point. But I've run an easy 750 rounds of 45 through a lightweight Commander (70s Colt with the tiny grip safety) in the last three weeks. It had sharp edges everywhere you grab it; but once I dehorned it, 8-10 mags are a cakewalk.

I expect at least some of the reason Hackathorn runs a 9mm in training is because 9mm is the Nu Kool Schitz and erry'body is shooting it. The guy is in the business and the better rapport you establish with your customer base, the more biz you're going to get.

I don't necessarily agree that the 380 is useless as a defense tool, particularly if the user has sense enough to engage in realistic practice and the foresight to get their hand on the gun at the first red flag.

Last edited by SargeMO; 04/29/19.

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I took his critique of the 380 as more a critique of the shootability of the pocket size pistols under stress.

Everybody has opinions and experiences. KH has more experiences than most, and that gives his opinions more value in my book.

I don't see what all the butthurt is about.

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I have two of the Kahr's, and a ruger 380, shootability of the Kahr's is not as good as my G17, G19 or P365, but will hit a softball at 7 yards with not much effort. On average seeing many people shoot at an indoor range, I can see the small 380 being a challenge.


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The smaller pistols just call for plenty of training. They will never be as shootable as a full size pistol, but they can/do save lives.

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Too bad Doc Rocket doesn't post here much anymore. He's seen a lot during his years of involvement with LEOs. He doesn't care for the 380 either.


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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