Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Do you still consider bullet frontal area?

We're currently living in good days, as far as equipment goes, from rifles to bullets and optics. We can now do more with less, so to speak, and I doubt there's a deer or hog that I've ever killed that couldn't have been killed just as dead with a .243win shooting a little 80gr TTSX. Many deer hunters are shying away from the magnums and realizing the attraction of easy-shooting and accurate rifles in moderate chamberings like the 6.5CM, which I like to see because it promotes practice and making good shots. I'm much the same way, but my question is this: When weather conditions are bad, or cover is really thick, do you still find yourself leaning toward bigger calibers to carry into the deer woods?

I'm curious, because while I've killed quite a few animals with the 6.5's in the last decade (and nearly as many with 6mm/257 rifles), I've noticed that tracking jobs, on average, are not typically quite as easy as those involving hits with .30cal or larger bullets. Not that the 6.5's have been disappointing, or lack the ability for clean kills, but that recovery of animals has been somewhat more work when dealing with blood trails in wet pine thickets or muddy bayou bottoms. As good as the smaller chamberings are these days, I still find myself reaching for the insurance of a .308, .338, or maybe even a .358 cal rifle when I don't want extra work while trailing in sub-par conditions. Thoughts?

JPro; I hope this day finds you and yours well.

The last several years most of my hunting has been with the 7-08 and the .260 however if I feel a need to limit distance travelled after the shot or will be hunting under conditions which may necessitate a shot of less than ideal presentation I pull out the .325 WSM.

I have not done any analysis of animals I have shot to know if the .325 makes them deader faster or if I just feel better with the words of Elmer Keith article read long ago echoing in the hollows of my head.

All the best. GRF

I have not seen bore diameter make any difference in how quickly the deer drops. For a long time I was subscribing to the thought that my small, fast 6mm & 257" rifles were killing deer faster...

Then I hunted with a traditional 50 cal muzzle loader using a soft 385 gr hollow point for a couple of years. Two shots. Two instant kills. Hmm. From a 1300 fps big bore chunk of lead. Well crud, there went my light-fast bullet superiority theory.

Mostly I've found that when I do a good job of shooting, the critters either drop where they were, or there's only a very short tracking job.

I have to admit though, that mostly I hunt mule deer in fairly open country.

So no, I don't worry 'bout how big around the bullet is. The past few years I seem to bounce back and forth between hunting with my 25-06 or my 30-06, and the results all tend to be about the same. They all seem to work if I shoot well.

Regards, Guy

Probably a third of the critters I shoot in a given year will fall due to shoulder shots or head-on shots, and in those cases, the moderate chamberings seem to do just about as well as the bigger rifles. It's when they don't drop right there that I notice a difference in recovery effort. If I only hunted open woods or fields on pretty days, I'd say a 6.5 is actually more gun than is likely needed, but a forest floor of nothing but wet, reddish-brown pinestraw is not very forgiving during night tracking with a light blood trail.

Gun and bullets don't actually kill game. Bullet holes kill game.
The deepest hole that can be had is clear through. 100%.

So the only other factor we can "adjust" is hole diameter.

Bullets that turn off and don't penetrate in a fairly straight line can be devastating but also they can be disappointing. You have no control of the actual wound when a bullet turns at a radical angel inside the animal.

Bullets that make a fairly straight hole clear through the animal, expand well and always exit are best overall for practicability. Bore size is less important then bullet design.

The most devastating kills as an average are those that are inflicted at high velocity and still hold together with some fragmenting, but leaving about 75%+ of the bullet in one piece, and exiting.

The problem with this description is that many high velocity hits can become erratic with many bullet available.

For years the gold standard was (and I think still is) the Nosler Partition, but with some of the "super-duper mags" available today even the Partitions can blow up if the hit is at close range. These super magnums do a more reliable job when mated with expanding solids, like the Barnes Xs and the Hornady GMXs. The expanding solids thrive on speed. In fact they do not expand very well at below 2000 FPS, but it seems impossible to drive then too fast.

I have seen about 20 deer and antelope killed in the last few years with 223s. All have been killed at 300 yards and less. I have seen Sierra 65 grain, Nosler 60 Grain Partitions, Barnes 62 grain and Speer 70 grain bullets used. The Barnes and the Noslers exited every time. The Speers did 2 times in 3 shots, and the Sierras did one time in 4 shots. All resulted in dead deer, but the ones that ran were far easier to follow when there was a lot of blood from exits. No "new news" here. All deer hunters would have guessed this to be true.

When it comes to "what's best" I have my own opinion. It's based on 50+ years of hunting and with about 2/3s of that time also guiding. As the guy that is often helping others, my personal preference is for hunters to use rounds that are not super fast. My reason is from what I have seen over the years. The super fast rounds do give a higher percentage of "electric kills" then the slower rounds, but they also are the ones that do the most erratic things from time to time and in those times I have often been the man that tracked the deer, elk, moose, antelope or bear down.
The bullets that hold together and impact at speeds of between 1800 to 2550 seem to almost always leave me a good blood trail and when the game runs, it almost never runs very far. Usually 60 yards of less. (Please note I did say ALMOST always. I have seen a few hits from bullets that did very weird things even in the old slow types, but those are the ones I can count on the fingers of one hand. For the super high velocity "weird effects" I would need about 2 more hands and 2 more feet to count the numbers on)

So coming to the original question. What would be "best"?

If we take your examples at the 2 extremes you listed, the 243 with 80 grain GMX and the 358 Winchester, lets say with a 225 grain Partition, my guess is that neither is going to be WAY AHEAD of the other for deer hunting. Reason? Both are going to kill very well and both will go clear through the deer. I would say the exits from the 358 are going to be larger and therefore bleed more, so any runs you compare from deer #1 to deer #2 are likely to be easier to follow from the larger hole. But neither is going to be head and shoulders ahead of the other because we are talking about deer here.

If elk were in the question the 358 is going to be more likely to give you a faster kill and leave more blood to follow. But I have personally killed a LOT of deer and many of them with very powerful guns up to and including the 375H&H, 416, 458, and 460. All kill well. None kill better then a 25-06 when used ON DEER! Why? As I said at the start, bullet HOLES kill.

The hole from a 458 Winchester with a 500 grain SP is not as large as it is from a 270 Winchester with a 150 grain SP. The 270 opens up to about 50 cal and is going quite fast so you get a good "splash" effect inside the chest. the 458 bullet is made to expand on buffalo, and a hit on a deer is so insignificant that "it doesn't even know it's hit something". The exit and the entrance are hard to tell apart.
Several of the deer I killed with the 458 ran about 30-40 yards and died. The ones I killed with the 270 nearly all fell before the recoil was done.

Many old timers loved their 35 Remington rifles for deer hunting because of short, easy to follow blood trails. I have to agree with them.

Same with the 170 grain 30-30 load and I am sure it will be the same with the 200-225 grain 358s too.

I have killed a lot of deer with a 9.3X74R and with very soft bullet like the 270 grain Speer, the kills are dramatic. But I killed a big deer with the 9.3X57 Mauser last year with a 250 grain Accu-Bond and that whitetail ran about 250 yards. I am 100% sure a hit in the same place with a good 243 with a Nosler Partition would have piled up that deer. The 243 would have made a more dramatic would. Not because it's more powerful (it's not near as powerful) but because that power would get used on the deer instead of the forest behind the deer.

You question is very simple, but the answer is extremely complex.

As for me, I tent to favor more mid velocity rounds then I do super fast one., That's the trend in my mind, but even that is not universal either.

The most dramatic "deer shell" I have every used (and even seen used) for one shot instant stops on deer (and even elk for that matter) in 50+ years is is still the 270 Winchester. And my 300 magnum with good tough 150 grain bullets is a lightning-bolt too.

But the weird ones, -- the ones that cause me to say "that just should not have happened" have nearly all been super fast rounds. (Nearly, but not all)
There are just too many variables in the question to give a pat answer.

I have been doing this for over 1/2 a century and have killed game in many states and a few other countries. I have lost count of the number of game kills I had made ----and I did that over 30 years ago.


And I am still learning.

[i][/i][u][/u]

When you said "frontal area" I flashed on tip shape. To that end I like a blunt round tip or better yet a flat meplat, and even better a flat meplat with a hollow point. Of course, most of my deer hunting is with cast bullets and such frontal areas are critical for good reliable expansion.

In the world of jacketed bullets, sheesh, just use whatever is engineered to expand at whatever distance/velocity you are impacting the animal, and whatever caliber your heart desires. Dead is dead and the degree of quickness of death depends entirely on where the bullet is placed.

I loaded some 125 grain Partitions for a Rem M7 in 260 that a friend used for a few years. Blood trails were not a problem with that combination.

Only when shooting cast bullets! If I’m shooting jacketed bullets, I choose a bullet that will perform at the velocities at which it will be used! memtb

I've had pretty good results with 129/130gr Accubonds in the 6.5's and never lost a game animal (out of maybe 20 animals), but also don't recall walking up on a hellacious blood trail like I've done with the .308/30-06/338-06, etc. Performance was always adequate and stuff died not too terribly far away, but the average sign/spoor was generally not as impressive. I suppose there are times when "impressive" helps (in my mind), and times when it doesn't really factor in. Weather and cover are on my mind when making that decision, and I was curious if others thought that way too.

We never caught one of those Partitions in a deer. I've wondered if the velocity (as moderated by the short barrel) wasn't enough to blow the mushroom off of the front of the bullet. We did not see the "pencil hole" exits I've seen attributed to Partitions.

To answer your question in the last sentence of the first paragraph, the answer is a loud YES. Especially under those conditions, the larger the exit hole, the better.

Perhaps I need to provide an addendum to my previous statement! Mt previous comment assumed that everyone knew that I want.....”no” demand” and exit wound! Bigger holes on both sides or ends of the animal is “always” a plus! memtb

Nope

I shoot them in the shoulders. No tracking I’ve never shot anything real big either. That might work on an elk or moose.

You can't kill them "deader".
Place the hole where it needs to be placed. Accuracy trumps size.
My 6.5 and 280 have not lost any.

I use a bland 308 for everything nowadays. don't give much thought anymore once I settled on a good combination for everything antelope-elk i shoot. 168 gr VLD does the job, really fast if I slip it just under the spine right behind the front shoulder. I quit worrying about what I'm shooting once I discovered how lethal it is. I only shoot on average 2-3 antelope, 2-3 deer and 1-2 elk a year though with it, and I usually loan it out for a few others to use as well. Bang flops are the norm with good shot placement, if something needs to be trailed it's very short and a rare occurrence. so In short, no I don't change my rifle or bullet because of conditions, I use the same combo for everything and it flat works. of course I had the same results with my 243 as well for over 20 years, I only went to the 308 by chance when I bought a suppressor and figured it was easier to load subsonic if I wanted than that old 243. still haven't loaded subsonic LOL, maybe someday.

Dead is dead, yes, but easily recovered and recovered after working for it are two different things. Asking if that matters is the point of the thread.

Colorado1135 brings up the "bland 308" and I've got to say that the 308 with 150-180gr cup/core bullets has been amazingly reliable in what I've seen in my 30 years in the hunting field. I've probably seen more game killed with it than anything else, which statistically should mean that I also saw the most instances of erratic performance with it, but that's not been the case. It just works with boring consistency and generally yields impressive results concerning tracking jobs. I have less experience with the 30-06, but have seen the same kind of effects when it is used.

A bullets sectional density is a far better predictor of how deep it will penetrate and how effective it will be. Unless you go up significantly in bullet weight then a bigger bore size is a handicap. As long as the bullet chosen has enough mass and is constructed well enough to penetrate on the game hunted. A 6.5/140 has about the same SD as a .308/180 and will give nearly identical penetration.

I tend to go for high shoulder shots when i get the chance. Given that I'm mostly using the 7mm08 and 6.5CM nowadays, I haven't noticed any difference given I match the right bullet for the right situation, with the aforementioned bullet placement, of course. I pay no attention to frontal area.

For 99% of my killin I consider velocity, cause that's how I hunt. Last thing I wanna do is skin a lrf, look at a chart, look at my dial, and dial.... I've found my 6ai the perfect run and gun to 450 or so, no guess work, just notch tags... Speed hurts shiit...