Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Weatherby Vanguard Accuracy Repeatability

I have two Weatherby Vanguard S2 rifles. One, a .270, is standard and the other, a .300 Win Mag, is an RC. With my handloads, both of these started out as extremely accurate, with 3 shot groups at 100 yards varying between 1/4" and 5/8". I shot many groups like this with each. Then, I got greedy and replaced the factory triggers with Timney triggers. After that I got mediocre to poor accuracy with both of them. It never occurred to me that the triggers were causing this, but rather something about removing the rifles from their stocks and then replacing them.

The primary thing I thought about was the action screws. There are 3 variables here, whether and when the rifle is bumped on the floor before tightening the screws, the order of tightening, and the torque setting. In both cases I used the factory recommendation of 35 inch pounds. However, on the .270, I experimented at the range and got the best accuracy (but still not quite what it was before) with a torque setting of 10 inch pounds front and 20 rear.

So, how can I get these rifles shooting as well as they did before -- or can I?

It occurs to me that Weatherby may have some "process" that gets the best accuracy out of a rifle, and once disturbed there's no way to get that level of accuracy back.

Or, it could be even worse, perhaps even the factory can't get things back to best accuracy once the stock has been removed.

Have you gun writers experienced anything like this with Vanguards?

Please, no drive-bys from non gun-writers suggesting barrel cleaning or problems with scopes.

I put a Timney in mine also. I ended up getting more consistency from my 7mm08 after floating the barrel. My brother has one in 308 and his groups aren't as consistent and he hasn't floated his barrel.

I am not a gunwriter but I am a long time competition shooter and through the years have noticed a few things, so bear with me on this.

Are the Timneys set at quite a bit lighter pull weight than the factory triggers were?
The reason for asking is that when using a heavier trigger one will often hold the rifle differently and more importantly focus on trigger control, where with the lighter trigger they often do not focus as much on the hold and trigger release, so it may be more of doing things differently than the action screw torque.

I would install the factory trigger in one of them, tighten the action screws down to factory recommendations and try the rifles like that. If it does shoot better with the factory trigger then you need to rethink the pull weight setting on the Timney.
Another possibility may be that the Timney trigger is hitting against the stock - that is just a guess since I really have no idea how much the dimensions of the Timney trigger mirrors the factory one.

There is an old trouble-shooting technique that works quite well - "Go back to the last thing that was changed before the problem occurred".

I really doubt that the factory has some "secret" torque setting that only they know.

drover

The bedding on the Vanguard RC is quite sophisticated and I'm not changing it.

As far as the trigger pull is concerned, yes, I did go from 3 3/4 to 2 1/4 but I can't see that making my shooting technique change so much as to change groups from 1/2 inch to 2 1/2 inch.

Since I posted, I took my torque wrench to the range and was able to get groups down to 1 1/2 inch by lightening the torque to 10 front and 25 rear, similar to what I did on the other Vanguard. Still not satisfied with it, but at least I can hunt with it now.

One thing I didn't mention is on the .270, when I removed the stock to install the new trigger, the torque on the front screw was finger tight -- I'd estimate 5 inch pounds. So Weatherby employees aren't following there own guide lines.

Boy it would be great if there was something about the trigger that was causing this. I'll reinstall the factory trigger and test this out.

I'm curious about Vanguard bedding being "sophisticate"...

If it was mine, I'd glass the action free float the barrel.

DF

+1 . If there is a more easy to bed action in the entire rifle Kingdom I would like to see it.

I felt the factory bedding was piss poor!

Probably is. At that price point they can’t get too carried away, spend too much time on that.

Bedding is one thing I can do well, so don’t mind reworking factory bedding.

They NEVER shoot worse. Most always better..

DF

Have you, by any chance, cleaned the barrels with a good, copper solvent?

I've only followed the Howa break-in process on one rifle, but do run some copper cleaner through my rifles periodically to check for buildup. Might only be one part of your puzzle, but stuff adds up. Have you checked the mount screws and tried swapping out a scope with a known good one? A .300 in particular can be hard on scopes and mounts, one reason our resident expert uses one for testing.

Have experienced some quirks with the Vanguard synthetic stocks over the years, even after "bedding" the action and free-floating the barrel. This may be heresy, but haven't experienced the same thing with bedded/floated walnut stocks. In fact by far the most accurate Vanguard I've ever owned was a .257 Weatherby Sporter, with a traditional Weatherby-style stock. Put three shots into 1-1/2"--at 300 yards.

The trigger change may have something to do with it. Often Timneys do take up more room, and the trigger might be bumping the stock, as Drover suggested.

I have never been able to install a Timney without grinding the stock a little bit. I have as well seen a walnut stocked Vanguard in 257 and another in 300 wby shoot tiny little groups with factory ammo.

I consider the bedding system to be sophisticated because the barrel lug cavity is glass bedded, there are two slanted raised areas at the front of the stock (something similar to the Ruger American) and there is a pressure point placed a little bit back from that.

I re-installed the factory trigger this afternoon and, weather permitting, will be back at the range tomorrow.

What was wrong with the factory triggers? Unless you really hate two stage triggers I can't see where the timney would be an upgrade.

That's a fact! My Vanguard in 30-06 absolutely shot better free floated.

About a decade ago one of the Weatherby people told me they hadn't been able to find any difference in accuracy between free-floating the barrels, and pressure-pointing the barrels (AKA tip-hump or speed-bump). In my experience that has not been the case.

The most accurate straight out of the box rifle with factory ammo that I've yet to own is a V2 IN 6.5 Creedmoor. I believe that this rifle is from a special/limited run that Weatherby made up for Cabela's before they cataloged the V2 in 6.5 Creedmoor. I have since bedded that V2 into a McM Hunter and that made a good rifle even better, but it doubled the cost of the package, so the cost effectiveness could be called into question.

Storming all day today, so no testing.

I've only owned two Vanguard S2 rifles. Both shot 1/2" groups, and I'm not that great a shot. I'd say that was pretty good. Triggers would only lighten to 3 3/4 pounds. As I said, I wanted "more" and put the Timneys in set to 2 1/4 pounds.

If it was that accurate, why would you mess with it? If it ain't broke.......

Tinkers have to tinker, no matter how good the pre-tinkered item in question was.

Sounds terrible....

sent it to me for disposal and start over...

I'll somehow live with it...

Dinking with rifles that already shoot well enough for their purpose is one of the defining attributes of a rifle loony.

About a year ago I purchased a Howa.....(same thing) in .308 Winchester. It was a marvelous shooter but I wasn't liking the synthetic stock So I restocked it in a marvelous piece of spalted Maple with cocobolo appontments.....It still shot fairly well but not like the gun did in the original stock.....I think the education is this.....if it shoots well, don't fix it!

Yep, that's diagnostic.

About the only out of the box rifle I've ever had that needed NOTHING, was my Ed Brown Damara .300 WM. Ed's attention to detail took care of everything. It has the 3.6" full mag box and the gun is chambered such that with min jump, the COAL is longer than the std. 3.4" factory rounds. Bedding is perfect...

I can usually find something to "improve" any factory rifle...

I guess this is more of a semi custom than a true factory rifle. At least is was; Ed shut down his rifle line to concentrate on 1911 pistols.

DF

I'm back from the range and there was no improvement except now I can get 1 1/2 inch groups at all torques from 10 to 45 inch pounds.

I'll give the bore a good cleaning but I know it won't make any difference.

One thing else I changed was switching from 180 grain TTSXs to 180 grain Hornady Interbonds. I've got some more TTSXs on the way but I can't see those shrinking groups by an inch.

I think I screwed this rifle's accuracy permanently from the way it was, but we'll see.

This could easily do it. Guns are individuals. Even consecutively serial numbered guns from the same maker can vary a lot on which ammo they like. You're testing a SYSTEM of components ... that includes the ammo.

Tom

Well enough?

Can any rifle ever shoot well enough?

It is damned easy for a person to spend more money than he/she ever intended if it is spent a little bit at a time to make a series of small tweaks and/or upgrades.

I have a couple of basic Howa 1500s, a 6.5x55 (LA) and a 6.5 Creedmoor (SA), and immediately swapped stocks 'cause I absolutely hate the Hogue style stocks that came on them. The 6.5x55 went through multiple stock before I settled on a V2 Griptonite take-off stock. That experience led me to go straight to a B&C Weatherby style Medalist stock for the 6.5 Creedmoor. If that had been my primary, 1st tier, 6.5 Creedmoor, I would have opted for a McMillan Hunter, but on a lower tier rifle the B&C and Weatherby Griptonite are enough better than the original factory installed stocks to justify the cost. Sometimes when you weigh all of the available options, good enough really is good enough.

I've never got Interbonds to shoot well! Go back to the TTSX and see how it does. Did you try the 130 and 150 TTSX in your .308? 180 TTSX is a pretty long bullet. Drop back to the 130-150 and push them as fast as you can. Seat them about 0.10 off the lands, give them a good run. BTW, did I mention that I hate Interbonds?

It's a .300 Win Mag, Jim, not a .308.

I've loaded up the TTSX and am giving the bore a massive multi-day cleaning. Once that is done I'll go back to the range and report back.

BTW, to clear something up about the Range Certified Vanguard, it comes with an H-S Precision stock.

Okay, it's back, or at least enough for me to take hunting next week.

I changed two things (bore cleaning and switch back to Barnes TTSX bullets) at the same time so I don't know what did it. When I get back, I'll have a gunsmith make sure my Timney trigger isn't touching anything, and try the Hornady Interbonds again.

My groups today:

7/8 inch
3/4 inch
one single hole, so let's say 1/16th inch
7/8 inch

Leave it alone for now. The one Howa Vanguard I worked with shot better once in a wooden stock, action bedded and barrel floated. I would be suspect of the middle pressure point. The loose front screw might indicate the rifle wants to be free floated. I would test with shims and see if it improves, if so eliminate the middle hump. If it improves then I might try the shim again and do a full free float. Also coat the trigger group with prussian blue and check for contact points. But it could have been the change in bullets and or a fouled bore all along. I doubt that you would go wrong in glass bedding the action and free floating the barrel once you have eliminated the trigger the contact question. If it does not improve then easy enough to add a front V block pressure point again. But the real issue is changing more than one variable at a time.

I’ve owned six Howas and Vanguards from 338WM to 223Rem. They all came with pressure points but all were eventually floated by me. Stocks included walnut, plastic, laminate and fibreglass.

In general terms average group size didn’t change much from before to after floating; consistency of point of impact did though.

In other words the slightly wandering POI shift disappeared with floating.

How did the patches look when You cleaned it ?

I don't know how to describe them. Powder residue came out for many patches with Hoppes #9. Then I switched to Eliminator Bore Cleaner and got a little more powder residue plus green/blue signs of copper but some of that at the end were false positives caused by the brass follower I was using. The Hoppes Copper Cleaner didn't seem to do too much.

everybody's standards are different.

1/2 inch on a hunting rifle. Is well enough for me.

If I shot a 1/2" group with any of my hunting rifles I would assume it was a one inch group with a pulled shot! ; )

I might not shoot it at paper again!

Yeah, i would also bed the rifle. Sounds like its sophisticatedly a piece of chit right now. When a rifle is glass bedded properly, it doesnt matter how many times you pull it from the stock, poi should not change. A properly bedded rifle isnt as finicky about action screw torque either. I wonder when people will ever get that? Thread after thread of why my rifle shoots like chit, and every time, said rifle isnt properly glass bedded or freefloated.. Id also make sure the new trigger isnt contacting the stock. Dremel out the stock a little if you have to, but be sure there is sufficient clearance. That could play havoc on group size..

+1 personally amazed that he didn't mention removing material for the timney. I have not had a vanguard yet that didn't need that and it can be a subtle removal of material, if not removed the trigger might have limited safety function. The factory bedding job(LOL) would be another source of non repeatable accuracy. I had a SUBMOA that had no release agent put on the front screw.

I just noticed this thread I created and wanted to give some follow-up.

After my hunt, I took both Vanguards to the gunsmith and had him check very closely to see if the Timney Triggers were touching the stocks anywhere. He said they weren't. I had him remove a tad more stock just to make absolutely sure. I also had him give them both a good cleaning even though I had given the RC model a super cleaning just before my hunt.

Neither of these changes made any difference in group size.

I went back to the Weatherby website and did some reading and noticed this recommendation for placing the barreled action:

1) Insert the rear action screw and tighten only sligtly
2) Center the barrel in the barrel channel and hold it there. Insert the front action screw and tighten to 35 inch pounds. Finish tightening the rear action screw to 35 inch pounds.

Note: The stock on the standard Weatherby is pretty tight all around the barrel at the fore-end tip, so it is pretty much already centered. The Bell and Carlson stock on the Weatherby has a good size space on each side of the barrel. I haven't measured it but a .045" business card will slip by until it hits the pressure point.

On the RC, I noticed that barrel was not centered, so I centered it. This immediately brought down group sizes. They're about 3/4" now with my hand-loads.

The regular stocked Vanguard didn't change much but it also is about 3/4" (sometimes 1") but with 2 shots often touching, with both action screws at the recommended 35 inch pounds. The standard Weatherby definitely has a firm pressure point, except on the upper sides.

One interesting thing is that before I centered the RC barrel, I could slide a .010" piece of computer paper past the pressure point. Now, I can't. So, centering somehow brought the barrel back closer to the pressure point but I can still slip a piece of telephone book paper past the pressure point so it isn't actually in contact. Now, I have to admit, I never actually tried to slip phone book paper past the pressure point, so I can't say for sure that the pressure point was ever in play, but I suspect it was.

One theory I have is the with the gap uneven, the barrel lug wasn't sitting flat against the back of the lug slot and that hurt group size, somehow.

It may have be carbon in the throat of the rifle. Carbon can sometimes build up in the area just in front of the case. I’ve found that it takes sometime for the carbon to soften up in front of the throat with most solvents. I now use jb bore cleaner to take care of the carbon in the throat.( works well for that along with jacket fouling ) . It works fast .Ive also heard that Ballistol works good for throat maintenance, but I cannot confirm that personally.

It seems some powders are worse than other for carbon build up.

There is no big trick to bedding a vanguard. In fact they are easier than most to bed properly.

You definitely don’t have enough clearance between the barrel and pressure point. That or you need some pressure on the barrel. Sounds like you are in between with clearance right now. I am talking about the RC.

Carbon, or anything to do with cleaning wouldn't explain why my groups cut themselves in half after I reseated the barreled action in the stock the "correct" way.

I'm leaving everything alone for now until after my next hunt but after I get back I'm going to experiment with bringing the pressure point back into contact with the stock.

I totally agree with this.
Also, after doing this, if it doesn't bring the group size down to suit you, try putting a pressure point out at the end of the fore end. I once had a guy bed a rifle for me that would shoot 1/2" 5 shot groups before he did any thing to it and free floated it to boot and it opened up from 1/2-5/8 ish to over 2" groups. Pissed me off to the heigth of pisstivity. Then I got to checking around with various local bench rest gurus and one gave me some papers written by Warren Page on bench rest shooting that suggested a thinner barrel sometimes likes a slight upward pressure out near the end of the fore end. If you think about it many factory rifles come with a pressure point there. I did this and it shrunk the groups back tighter than before. And I'm talking 5 shot groups, not 3. Keep this in mind but just do one thing at a time. Don't do it all at once or you won't know what helps or what screws you up further.

I bought a S2 Sporter .243 in 2014 based on how accurate the S2 Synthetics are that were already in the family. Actually two S2 Synthetics, 07mm-08 and 30-06 and a 30-06 in the previous model Vanguard.

The .243 wouldn’t shoot any ammunition well and several different types were used. I didn’t measure them they were so big. I called Weatherby because there is a guarantee and was told to send it in, which I did. Weatherby called the next week and asked if I had taken the stock off. I had, to clean it and said so. I was informed I’d torqued it too tight and ruined the stock. I informed them I had a torque screwdriver and that was bull. I was then told they would call me back. They called the next day and said a few of their Sporter stocks had wood that wasn’t dense enough and I had obviously received one. They shipped the rifle back with a new stock, rifle wouldn’t shoot. I then did what I should have done from the get go but didn’t think of, swap stocks on the .243 and 07mm-08. The .243 shot great and the 07mm-08 sucked. Called Weatherby and asked for a Synthetic stock and I sent the Sporter stock back. Looks like my experience was the opposite of some of you.

I own 4 S2 Vanguards in 243, 240 Wby, 257 Wby and 6.5-300 Wby. All have been in and out of the factory stocks at 1-2 times for trigger upgrades & cleanings. None have had significant POI changes.

35 inch lbs torques for the action screws applies to the factory plastic and wood stocks. Vanguards with factory B&C fiberglass stocks (including RC models) with aluminum bedding block are torqued to 65 inch lbs.

Unless you have borescoped both rifles you can only guess that the barrels are copper free. I'd start there

I just spoke with Bell and Carlson personnel and they said they recommend "using the rifle manufacturer specifications", which is 35 inch-pounds according to Weatherby. I've thoroughly -- and I mean thoroughly -- cleaned the barrel with several different brands of copper remover, and then had a gunsmith clean it on top of that.

I guess I shouldn't be complaining too much since it is shooting 3/4" groups, its just that I know it is capable of better when there's a pressure point. Of I could go the other way and do a real free-float with pillar bedding and stock glass bedding. At least then I would have consistency and wouldn't have to worry about taking the barreled action out of the stock changing things.

I replaced the ugly synthetic stock on my .300 win Ruger 77 stainless with a laminated stock. I did not finish the inletting but took it a gunsmith and had him glass bed it, pillar bed it and free float the barrel. The only other thing I had done is replaced the trigger spring with a 4 lb. made and sold by some gunsmith. That rifle would shoot near one hole groups at 100 yards after all that. It was extremely accurate before changing stocks but after was amazing.

I guess my point is glass bedding, pillar bedding and free floating the barrel works.

One of the small differences in the Vanguard (Howa) actions that I've noted before can occasionally cause problems if people aren't aware of it.

The Howa/Vanguard action is one of the relatively few designed since World War II that have the front action screw going directly into the recoil lug, instead of behind it. The screw going into the lug was common on pre-WWII actions, especially the influential 98 Mauser, which is probably why so many earlier bolt-actions featured it, including the 1903 Springfield, Arisaka, etc. But the front screw in the lug can result in a bedding problem, which also resulted in one common misconception about bedding bolt rifles, back when epoxy bedding became common.

If the front action screw is REALLY tightened on such actions, it can actually bend the front of the action downward slightly, since the stock support is behind the recoil lug. Since the locking lugs on 2-lug bolt orient vertically when the bolt's closed, this can result in slightly uneven lug contact--and accuracy problems. This is probably why Weatherby advises 35 inch-pounds to tighten the action screws, which isn't all that much considering that 50-80 are often suggested for the front screw on actions with the screw behind the lug.

This is the real reason many people started epoxy-bedding not only the action itself but the rear of the barrel, back when zillions of "war surplus" 98s and 1903s were sold after the war. Bedding the rear of the barrel allowed the front action screw to be tightened hard WITHOUT bending the action--a particular problem with 98s, due to the thumb-slot in the left sidewall.

A lot of people, even today, think that bedding the rear of the barrel helps "support" it, the reason they do it even on actions with the front screw behind the recoil lug--when these do NOT bend the action when tightened hard. The Model 70 was probably the first major commercial action with the screw behind the lug, but Remington used the same placement about a decade later when they introduced the 721/722 bolt-actions, which eventually morphed into the 700.

The front action-screw placement is probably a large part of the reason both the 70 and 700 both acquired such good reputations for accuracy: The barrel on does NOT need any extra bedding support on either action, the reason they both usually shoot very well even with long, heavy free-floated barrels.

Instead, bedding the rear of the barrel on actions like the 98, 1903 and Howa Vanguard supports the ACTION, to keep it from bending slightly when the screws are tightened hard.

Good info on those old A3's. My uncle gave me his 30-06 35 years ago, and it doesn't shoot for squat. I'm going to check these things out on that rifle as I'd like to use it. Thanks.

I still bed the first inch of the barrel, even with M-70's and 700's.

Old habits are hard to break and it doesn't seem to hurt anything.

And, seems to me it sorta works to stiffen the forearm, gives less room for flex. In other words, I get less forearm motion this way than with a full free float. With a high end stock like McM, that's not as big a problem as with B&C. I see more forearm flex, B&C vs. McM. I end up with less gap free floating McM's.

DF

JG,

Find a bud with a bore scope. If the bore is trash, send it to JES, rebore to 338-06.

The one I gave my hunting bud has a '42 vintage barrel that's pristine, shoots MOA or better. Some of those older guns may have had corrosive ammo.

Not sure how many you'll find with a pristine bore.

DF

I had a sako with the screw in the recoil lug that would shoot literally patterns. Mule Deer walked me through bedding it and now it will put just about anything under a moa and I’m far from a great shot

Why would you do anything to a rifle that would shoot 5 shot 1/2 inch groups?

Mr Dirtfarmer........my buddy has a borescope so I took it to him and the barrel is corroded terribly, as you mentioned. I like your JES idea, and I need a stock like that. Where did you get it? Wondering if it would be best to find a compatible 30-06 barrel and swap it out, or rebarrel as you said. I know squat about a 338-06. Thanks buddy.

That's an ancient, vintage Fajen that was on the gun when I bought it cheap at a Shreveport hardware store in the '70's. The barreled action was very poorly inletted. I showed the store mgr just how bad is was, told him I could fix it, but the average customer wouldn't be able to. I think I got it for $125 or so. I redid the bedding; it already had a Timney trigger.

It sat in my safe for decades. My hunting bud was talking about how much he liked Springfields and wanted me to help him find one. Well, I sent this one to David Christman in Delhi, LA, a Guild member and top notch gunsmith. I got him to fit a Jaeger type safety I had picked up on EBay for $14 and install a new handle. The gun ended up with bud's Leupold Vari X III 3-9x40 and last season he killed a bunch of stuff with it. I loaded 130 gr. Hornady hunting (not Varmint) bullets at around 3,100 fps. He had lots of one shot kills, mostly DRT. He likes it so much, he named it Dusty Springfield after the singer. Sorta dates him...

I like light, fast bullets in the '06 for local WT's and hogs. I get good thru and thru penetration with lots of damage, two holes with good blood flow. Don't actually need a blood trail with DRT's, but still nice to have.

338-06 is such a nice round and a perfect upgrade for your Springfield. I think JES charges $250 or so and his guns generally shoot about as well as a new barrel. Replacing the barrel will cost around twice that if you do it right. You could maybe find a take off and get it mounted, but even that would be hard to do for $250. I think a JES rebore will shoot as good if not better than most take off's fitted to your gun.

DF


JG, edited to add this link. Good discussion on the 35 Whelen, 9.3x62 and 338-06. JES can turn your Springfield into any of the three. I've had a 9.3x62 and it's a great round. Never had the Whelen, but those who love it really love it. My pick of the three is the 338-06, but you won't go wrong with any of them.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/14500235/1

Another link https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/14539405 B&C stocks are pretty good for what they cost.

This is a real Loony opportunity....

Now, how often does one come along, dropped in your lap like this???

DF,

My first .338-06 (of three) was a rebore of a Springfield, many years ago, done by a company that is no longer in business. A great round! In fact I still have Elmer Keith's letter about handloads for it, in response to my letter to him through GUNS & AMMO about handloads.

But eventually tried the 9.3x62, which I do believe "works" noticeably better on heavier game with modern handloads--in fact better than the .338 Winchester Magnum that I used a LOT for a while. But whether most North American hunters need one is another question--though of course need has nothing to do with it....

To a Loony, "need" is a four letter word....

But you already knew that...

DF

Good information here John.

I might add that action screws that protrude from the recoil lug on the actions mentioned, should bottom out on the bedding. This is to help prevent the action from deflecting when torqued, as John mentioned.

Actions with actions screws behind the recoil lug should have clearance under the recoil lug. Failure to have clearance can cause the recoil lug to hang up on the bedding and deflect the action when torqued excessively. This can happen just as easily as the latter.

A dial indicator is a good tool to diagnose bedding problems. Indicate on the fore stock while referencing from the barrel. Tighten and loosen action screws and observe. I am not satisfied with the bedding if more than 2 mil of deflection is observed on the dial indicator.

If ones actions/stocks are inducing stress, and there is a forearm pressure point, one has to make a science out of torqueing screws if he wants repeatability after disassembling/reassembling a rifle. Bed the action stress free, and float the barrel. With some of my Weatherby's point of impact drops 6 or 7 inches at 100 yds with removal of forearm pressure.

If one wants to do an assay beg, borrow, buy or steal a bore sighter, install same and without touching it, loosen all screws, check sighter coordinates, retighten screws, and check again. With a well bedded unit, there should be zero movement whether free of the stock or torqued down.

Amen, why dont people get this chidt? Id subscribe to your writing any day of the week. This chit is simple mechanics and totally makes sense. Ive had vanguards that shot lights out after I properly glass bed them. My problem was they didnt extract for chidt. Sent one back to the "authorized weatherby repair center" 3 times before they got it to extract cartridges right. They are a pile o chidt, but you are absolutely correct about neutral bedding them. It works wonders.

This seems like a long involved thread to answer a “change back to your original bullet” to regain accuracy problem.

I bought an original Vanguard in 300 weatherby for $260 on Gun broker delivered as an extra elk gun that wouldn’t break my heart if stolen from the truck. My only request from the seller was a reasonable trigger pull - sadly it was horrible & the gun shot a little over an inch at best. I broke down spent $100 & 10 minutes on a Timney and it clover leafed 180.grain TTSXs. Less than 1/2 the original group size with a 2.5 lb ultra smooth instant break. It is my 1st string elk gun & with aZeiss conquest HD5 Z800 that matches the trajectory perfectly it is a sure thing killer to 600 yards all day.

It is so popular with my hunting group my cousin & son in law both bought S2 300’s & both shoot very well. Future son-in-law wants it on his list when I kick the bucket......so I’m a fan of a trigger swap on the old Vanguard for sure.

Why in the hell you would want to shoot Interbonds is beyond words. Those were the worst shooting bullets I ever put downrange in my 7mm. I almost sent the rifle down the road it shot them so sorry.