Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns ROSS SEYFRIED QUESTION

And they don’t have the membership are the amount of participation of the “fire”

Do you think the Hodgdon data is made up? Do you think the test results I've presented are wrong or did you just not even read it? If you read it and do not believe it is wrong, please point to where that data shows an advantage to the .45Colt.

You can't preach heavy bullets and state that SD is "BS". SD is simply a number used to determine "how heavy" for caliber a given bullet is. Useful in comparing one caliber to another. It is a contributing factor in penetration.

I have shown that the .45 only has a speed advantage at 50,000psi.

The .45 only creates a larger wound channel if the meplat is larger. As I've said countless times, in commercial bullets that is not a given. If the meplat is the same, all the larger ass behind it is going to do is create drag. Which is why a .44 LFN with a .300" meplat penetrates better than a .45 LFN with a .300" meplat. Do you really think a .005-.010" larger meplat makes an appreciable difference?

The 45 is not a step up, it is a lateral move. You have bullets the same weight, traveling similar velocities. The .44 penetrates a little better, the .45 is 'sometimes' a little larger.

The .475 is a significant step up. It's a step up in diameter, bullet weight and pressure/velocity.

Come at me with actual data. Not 30yr old butthurt opinion.

And a heavier 45 bullet will have a higher sectional density than its lighter counterpart that may not exit. To equal a 300 grain .429 bullet in SD, you'll have to go a little heavier to equal it in .452, .458, whatever bore. SD's are 232 vs. 212 respectively, You'll have to go with a 330 grain .45 to get the SD equal.

Assuming conventional bullets and all being equal (velocity, bullet type, etc.), a 300 grain .429 has the potential to penetrate more than a .452 projectile. Minor as the difference is, the *potential* exists.

I would much rather look at bullet construction as a true indicator. A 300 grain.429 LBT WFN will out penetrate a 300 grain .430 XTP. And so on.

SD is just part of what I'll look at, but it does bear consideration.

Exactly.

I said I wasn't getting dragged back into this, but I must say the following.

I have shown that with same weight bullets, the .45 will outpace the .44 when pressures are equal. It doesn't take 50,000 psi for that advantage to show up. I had ammo pressure tested for this very reason, and the .45 with a 335 grain bullet at 36,000 psi runs OVER 1,400 fps in every gun we've chronographed them through. It's just physics.

Now I'm seriously staying out of this. Seriously.

True but irrelevant. It's absolutely true that if you run both cartridges at the same pressure, the .45 will be faster because it's using more powder and has a greater surface area. That is an obvious given and it's why the .45 is faster at 50,000psi. However, it is completely irrelevant in the context of six-shot Ruger single actions. First, there is no 36,000psi data. Second, if there was, it represents an overload for a six-shot single action by ANY accepted standard that reduces the safety margin from 100% to 60% and would only be safe in guns that are good to 50,000psi. In order for the results to be comparable, we'd have to run the .44Mag at 48,000psi. Which means we'd be running our Super Blackhawks at "Redhawk only" levels and I don't think that's such a good idea. At which point the .45 Kool Aid drinkers will respond by running the .45 at the same pressure, which is a measly 12,000psi below that where the gun turns into a hand grenade. Therefore, in the real world (not the abstract), where we like to have comparable safety margins closer to 100%, only in appropriate guns such as Redhawks, Super Redhawks, BFR's, FA's, Dan Wessons, etc. at 50,000psi does the .45 gain an advantage. I think I've always said that.

Closed minds containing 30yr old opinions need not apply.

Do those 30 year old opinions include the so-called safety margins of stock Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawks?

No, you will be back to this thread in a while. The "BIG SHOWS" love to show the "LITTLE SHOWS" their knowledge.

And as for you, the “No Show” will continue hurling crap at everyone but you and bfrshooter can have fun hanging out together since you are basically yin yang. One spouts bs credentials and one has none but tries to keep up the mystery.

So says the joystick man of the internet. The spin man of forums.

Enlighten me, wise one, what is a joystick man. Seems like maybe something you have intimate experience with. Explain to the uninitiated.

I think Jim assumes everyone sits at home playing with their pecker all day long.....like he does.

Just exactly what I said. Your MO is like most mini gods on the internet. Anything else big man? Play with yourself some more then post some more.

Haha, i have eight kiddos. I know how to play..........and shoot and teach shooting. Not just bloviate about my pseudo tough guy knowledge.

Looking at Hogdon’s data on the internet the 44 mag with a 325 grain .430 diameter with 20 grains H-110 give a velocity of1264 FPS at 30,800 CUP with a barrel length of 8.275”

The 45 colt with a 325 grain bullet .452 diameter has a velocity of 1266 FPS with 24 grains H-110 at 27,400 CUP with. 7.250” barrel

Shorter barrel Less presser for the 45, exactly what Ross and John Linebaugh said.

An internal ballistics rule states that fir every 10% in case capacity at the safe pressure at 2 1/2% increase in velocity

You guys keep doing only half the math. The .44 Mag load generates 4,473 ft/lbs of bolt thrust and the .45 Colt load 4,397 ft/lbs - essentially the same. That is the stress the frame subjected to: PSI • Cross Sectional Area. Factor in the increase in hoop (radial) stress in the cylinder, which is also greater due to the greater surface area of the .45 Colt, and there is no practical difference.

John Linebaugh also said: "Case head thrust is CHAMBER PRESSURE x THE SURFACE AREA OF THE DIAMETER OF THE REAR OF THE CHAMBER. I won't go into great detail but a 45 Colt at 32,000 CUP chamber pressure exerts just under 3 tons of pressure on the back of the frame. A .44 magnum at 40,000 CUP chamber pressure exerts just over 3 tons of pressure on the back of the frame. Basically the same."

Although Mr. Linebaugh doesn't discuss it, the same physics applies to the cylinder due to the larger surface area of the .45 Colt case.

There is no free lunch.

No, the Hodgdon data isn't made up. As JWP shows with just one load (look at 335 and 355/360 data as well), when the pressures are fairly close (27,000-29,000 for the 45, 29,000-31,000 CUP), the 45 is right there. Run same pressure along with same barrel length and now 50-100 fps the other way happens and we're not even at 50,000 psi..

You and I agree on SD. SD is important in regards to solids; it helps in lengthwise penetration and the speed the projectile trucks through resistance.

Meplats is where I diverge a bit. I believe this has been "Veral Smithed" a bit too much. I give you the 358 LBT OGW. It's meplat exceeds that of my lowly H&G 503 (265gr. Keith). Of course its meplat is larger than the famed 44 LFN, but that is another story..

The meplat on that 38 bullet in no way makes it create holes in hide, muscle or soft organs like that 44 Keith bullet, no matter how fast its driven over the 44. That isn't conjecture.
Maybe it outshines it in pure jelly, but on game it has never been the case, nor the 180 FN.

Which is why I think the 45 is to the 44 as the 480/475 is to the 45...maybe that isn't the ass dragging.

No, because they only come in cartoonish oversized novelty guns.

But this is a straw man argument. As I've said multiple times, it is a given than when compared at the same pressure, the .45 will produce more velocity because it's using more powder. The problem is the application of that concept. You can't run them at identical pressure because the .45's are only 80% as strong as the .44's. That's only a valid comparison in guns which can be run at the same pressure. Such as the Redhawk, Super Redhawk, Dan Wesson, FA, etc.. In which case they can both be run at 50,000psi.



But you're comparing two very dissimilar bullets and we get into the discussion about what role the SWC's shoulder plays. I'm comparing VERY similar bullets. We are really splitting hairs here with .44's and .45's which may only differ 0.005".



That's a popular notion but I don't agree with it at all. The .45 is a slight yet arguable step up in diameter, a step down in pressure, a step down in SD and a lateral move in mass.

The .475 is a significant step up in every category. You're going from 360's at 1100fps and 32,000psi; to 430's at 1350fps and 50,000psi with a meplat over .400".

The .500 is a step up in diameter only.

IMHO, ALL these cartridges do their best work at 50,000psi.

Depends which 45 you speak of as well as the same diameter increase from .429 to .452 is a higher percentage up versus .452 to .475. A cartridges ability to handle a higher pressure is an asset rather than a detraction imho.