Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns ROSS SEYFRIED QUESTION

A 10% increase in capacity in the same caliber will result in only a 2 1/2% in velocity at the same pressure. The more powder arguement is the straw man.

JOG bolt thrust is not the topic and it only exerts force rearward on the revolver pressure is equal in all directions at once.

Plus the 45 has a + or- 1” shorter barrel

In my view bolt thrust and hoop stress ("all directions") are the only topics where pressure matters. There is no reason to even mention PSI except in the context of the revolver's design and strength, and even then PSI as a stand-alone measurement is meaningless. Otherwise it's tough to explain why a standard .45 Colt (14,000 PSI) revolver has to be stronger than a .22 LR (24,000 PSI).

That's another abstract argument. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It is a fact that the .45 uses more powder. Whether it's essentially duplicating .44 performance at "Ruger only" levels or exceeding it at 50,000psi. Case capacity is the whole reason how it's able to do what it does.

BACKthrust is very important in determining the strength of the .45 compared to the .44. As Linebaugh states in his own writing:

"When a firearm is fired there is pressure on the base of the bullet to propel it out the barrel. There is an equal rearward thrust against the case head and thus transferred onto the action of the firearm. This is known as CASE HEAD THRUST. Case head thrust is CHAMBER PRESSURE x THE SURFACE AREA OF THE DIAMETER OF THE REAR OF THE CHAMBER. I won't go into great detail but a 45 Colt at 32,000 CUP chamber pressure exerts just under 3 tons of pressure on the back of the frame. A .44 magnum at 40,000 CUP chamber pressure exerts just over 3 tons of pressure on the back of the frame. Basically the same."

You can't run the .45 at a higher pressure without dramatically changing the whole foundation of the argument. As I said, you're eating into the .45's safety margin yet leaving the .44 at 100%. That might win the argument but you lose if the goal is an unbiased, scientific test.



Which is why I used identical guns in all my tests.



An increase of 0.022" in bullet diameter is meaningless if the meplat is only .005" bigger. In which case, you're getting more in drag and losing penetration for an increase in meplat diameter that must be measured with a micrometer.

Do you guys not see how we're really having to split hairs to find the advantage?

No one, myself included, argues that the .475 is not a significant increase in everything over the .44 and .45.

Fellas, aren't we kind of stuck in the mud here? Why not just list the number of animals you've taken with the 44, then the 45 & then anything bigger & we'll pick a winner & close this one! If you noticed any difference in shock effect, etc tell us about hit, a few ft lbs of energy or a little edge in velocity probably doesn't effect the out come as much as bullet quality or bullet placement, does it? To me, the 44 & 45 is a wash in every way, velocity, recoil, accuracy & killing effectiveness, move up to the 480/475 & you've made a considerable jump, if I'm wrong correct me but lets put a cork in this one & laugh it off.

Dick

I agree with that and as long as placement is good, but step up to the fast 45’s and thats where the fun begins for me with premium bullets. Using hardcast go 480/475 or better yet the 500’s. Im still shocked at the effectiveness of the 480 at such a light recoil level.

I honestly believe you could shoot 1000 each of the same critter and not notice a difference. Those who came before us who came to the conclusion that some cartridges were better for bigger critters shot hundreds, if not thousands of them to come to their conclusions and the gaps between the various cartridges were much, much broader than what we're speaking of here. This argument is more akin to arguing that the .404Jeffery is measurably more effective than any of the various .416's due to the minuscule difference in diameter.

I look at the transition from one caliber to the next more as fluid, rather than black & white or compartmentalized. I do believe that bigger is better but I don't see it as anything from .44Mag on up is suitable for bigger and bigger critters. There's no scenario where the .44 will let them run off but the .45 would've hammered `em flat. This is where I take issue with the Linebaugh/Seyfried writings, is in comparing the best .45 bullets to mediocre .44 bullets and using that as a basis to exaggerate the difference. Sure, they disproved some myths surrounding the .45 but they created a few of their own. It was proven long ago that a .40cal is plenty big enough for anything that walks (speaking of rifles again). In stepping up, all you're doing is increasing the odds that the critter's end will come sooner and widening your margin for error. That the single most important factor is the bullet and its construction.

Got Hodgdon #26 today. As I suspected, the .44 data tops out with a 300gr JSP at 1300fps and 35,000CUP. All .45Colt data is standard pressure.

As I said, if your opinion of the .44Mag stems from something Seyfried or Linebaugh wrote 20-30yrs ago, you need an update.

44 Magnum 300 gr Hornady XTP Remington 2 1/2 large pistol. 8.275 inch barrel

Hodgdon

H110

.430"

1.600"



18.0

1,266

35,100 CUP



19.0

1,325

38,800 CUP





45 Colt 300 Grain Speer JSP WLP Primer 7.25 inch barrel

Hodgdon

H110

.451"

1.650"



21.8

1,191

26,700 CUP



22.2

1,198

30,100 CUP

Speer #14

44 Magnum Redhawk 7.5 inch
300 Grain JSP
22.5 H110
1187 FPS

45 Colt
300 Grain JSP Blackhawk7.5 inch
23.5 H110
1156 FPS
Pressure roughly half way from standard 45 Colt and 44 Mag pressure according to Speer

Why? They were and are correct

I agree with most of this, however, i believe what linebaugh wrote was stuck in a different era and he didnt shoot many animals. Seyfried, loved his writings but largely not applicable to anything when monometal/punch bullets and premium expandables are factored in. i think the fact he was using those trophy bonded whatever solids and bothering to lathe turn em and all that makes me suspect he was looking for something better. Now we have bullets that make small variables in diameter immaterial and velocity plays a bigger role. I think rounds like a 454 and 460 and the 500 jrh can ne loaded to a whole different level of effectiveness than the 44, 45 colt but it does come at a cost, but worth it if you can handle the recoil. (With the 460 the recoil isnt even bad). That said, seyfried and linebaugh have great contributions but they certainly arent the last word at this time. The 475 isnt even at its best with cast bullets. Thats why the bovine bash exists. To test in front of others and see not what someone says from afar trying to make sure they dont have egg on their face, but to see what happens in front of us as to what works and how well it works.

I know and the earth is flat. Sorry but your opinion is based on obsolete information.

Their contributions were immense but we also have to keep it in perspective and the proper context.

I never set out to prove the .44 was better, quite the contrary. But so many folks are so convinced that the .45 is so much better and so invested in that belief that I've had to rigorously defend my findings and that makes me look like a .44Mag Kool Aid drinker.

And you are full of yourself, obsolete my azz. Nothing has changed as the data put up in this thread shows the relationship has changed how in the hell you can make that claim is rediculous

Even though Ross wrote that several years ago it's still my favorite hand gun article of all time. What did Hugo Seia call it, the short 458 or little 458, gotta love it.

Dick

While Taffin has probably cost me more money, Seyfried is probably my favorite writer of all time. His work with Handloader/Rifle magazines are among his best. So this is not some vendetta or agenda against him or Linebaugh.



The truth hurts. You're trying to make this personal. It's just data. Bits of information. No agenda. The problem is that it contradicts what you perceive to be the truth. You made up your mind long ago and won't be swayed by the facts. The Linebaugh/Seyfried writings were written from the perspective that a 300gr JSP at 1300fps was the best it could do and compared that to what the .45 can do with a 325gr cast bullet. That is obsolete information. The .44 was never tested at 50,000psi, which would've shown a mere 100fps advantage to the .45Colt. I wonder why? Could it be because Linebaugh makes a living building .45's out of .44's? How can you look at the Hodgdon data and conclude anything else???

The .45 does not exceed .44Mag performance at less pressure. It nearly duplicates it but still lags behind it for comparable bullet weights BUT with a lower SD.

The .45 does not handle heavier bullets.

The .45 does not penetrate better.

The .45 does not do what it does with less recoil.

The .45 is not universally .023" larger as meplats vary widely. The largest .44 WFN/WLN I can find is .350" and the largest .45 a .360", a difference of only .010".

Contrary to popular opinion, I am not a .45Colt hater. I own 11 of them and dedicate a Dillon 650 with casefeeder to loading for them. In addition to two .454's and ten .45ACP's.

If you take what was written in the proper context it is correct. Pushing 340 grain 44 bullets 50,000 psiis not in context. What is in context is the 45 will push the same weight bullet as fast as the 44 at Less pressure and shorter barrel as all data shows.

All can be loaded to higher pressure in proper platform that is not a problem. The 45 will push the same weight bullet faster than a 44 at the same pressure all data proves this.

The difference between them isn’t day light and dark different but it still exists. 80% meplat is bigger in 45, also a fact

A gun is completely safe at a given pressure ir its not. Its why i dont care one bit whether two calibers shoot the same bullet at 6 or 8k more psi or not. Nor whether a gun has a 100%, 80%, 40% or whatever safety margin. Its safe and the gun can run that pressure or it cant. So care not about these things. I agree with both sides, the 45 colt is bigger and at the same pressure a little faster. That said, i have not one clue why anyone would ever have some fancy custom built in hopes of gaining some massive advantage. If someone wanted a beautiful 45 colt, great, get one. However, if one thinks theres a massive advantage to be gained they are chasing a myth. The 45 colts main advantage is it can use the tougher 454 casull bullets as the biggest gains to be had in either side will be in what bullet one uses.

If the article presents the data in Hodgdon #26 as representing the .44Mag at its best, then it is obsolete.

All data does not show that. The Hodgdon data, presented here, shows differently. Almost as fast, in barrels the same length. Not as fast. Not faster. Not in shorter barrels.

50,000psi loads, when compared to each other, is the proper context.



Agreed. I said that, many times.



That's the abstract version. In the real world, comparing actual bullets, it is not that black & white because commercial bullets aren't following those rules. As I've repeated a thousand times, one must look at individual bullets.