Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Weatherby Vanguard Accuracy Repeatability

Dinking with rifles that already shoot well enough for their purpose is one of the defining attributes of a rifle loony.

About a year ago I purchased a Howa.....(same thing) in .308 Winchester. It was a marvelous shooter but I wasn't liking the synthetic stock So I restocked it in a marvelous piece of spalted Maple with cocobolo appontments.....It still shot fairly well but not like the gun did in the original stock.....I think the education is this.....if it shoots well, don't fix it!

Yep, that's diagnostic.

About the only out of the box rifle I've ever had that needed NOTHING, was my Ed Brown Damara .300 WM. Ed's attention to detail took care of everything. It has the 3.6" full mag box and the gun is chambered such that with min jump, the COAL is longer than the std. 3.4" factory rounds. Bedding is perfect...

I can usually find something to "improve" any factory rifle...

I guess this is more of a semi custom than a true factory rifle. At least is was; Ed shut down his rifle line to concentrate on 1911 pistols.

DF

I'm back from the range and there was no improvement except now I can get 1 1/2 inch groups at all torques from 10 to 45 inch pounds.

I'll give the bore a good cleaning but I know it won't make any difference.

One thing else I changed was switching from 180 grain TTSXs to 180 grain Hornady Interbonds. I've got some more TTSXs on the way but I can't see those shrinking groups by an inch.

I think I screwed this rifle's accuracy permanently from the way it was, but we'll see.

This could easily do it. Guns are individuals. Even consecutively serial numbered guns from the same maker can vary a lot on which ammo they like. You're testing a SYSTEM of components ... that includes the ammo.

Tom

Well enough?

Can any rifle ever shoot well enough?

It is damned easy for a person to spend more money than he/she ever intended if it is spent a little bit at a time to make a series of small tweaks and/or upgrades.

I have a couple of basic Howa 1500s, a 6.5x55 (LA) and a 6.5 Creedmoor (SA), and immediately swapped stocks 'cause I absolutely hate the Hogue style stocks that came on them. The 6.5x55 went through multiple stock before I settled on a V2 Griptonite take-off stock. That experience led me to go straight to a B&C Weatherby style Medalist stock for the 6.5 Creedmoor. If that had been my primary, 1st tier, 6.5 Creedmoor, I would have opted for a McMillan Hunter, but on a lower tier rifle the B&C and Weatherby Griptonite are enough better than the original factory installed stocks to justify the cost. Sometimes when you weigh all of the available options, good enough really is good enough.

I've never got Interbonds to shoot well! Go back to the TTSX and see how it does. Did you try the 130 and 150 TTSX in your .308? 180 TTSX is a pretty long bullet. Drop back to the 130-150 and push them as fast as you can. Seat them about 0.10 off the lands, give them a good run. BTW, did I mention that I hate Interbonds?

It's a .300 Win Mag, Jim, not a .308.

I've loaded up the TTSX and am giving the bore a massive multi-day cleaning. Once that is done I'll go back to the range and report back.

BTW, to clear something up about the Range Certified Vanguard, it comes with an H-S Precision stock.

Okay, it's back, or at least enough for me to take hunting next week.

I changed two things (bore cleaning and switch back to Barnes TTSX bullets) at the same time so I don't know what did it. When I get back, I'll have a gunsmith make sure my Timney trigger isn't touching anything, and try the Hornady Interbonds again.

My groups today:

7/8 inch
3/4 inch
one single hole, so let's say 1/16th inch
7/8 inch

Leave it alone for now. The one Howa Vanguard I worked with shot better once in a wooden stock, action bedded and barrel floated. I would be suspect of the middle pressure point. The loose front screw might indicate the rifle wants to be free floated. I would test with shims and see if it improves, if so eliminate the middle hump. If it improves then I might try the shim again and do a full free float. Also coat the trigger group with prussian blue and check for contact points. But it could have been the change in bullets and or a fouled bore all along. I doubt that you would go wrong in glass bedding the action and free floating the barrel once you have eliminated the trigger the contact question. If it does not improve then easy enough to add a front V block pressure point again. But the real issue is changing more than one variable at a time.

I’ve owned six Howas and Vanguards from 338WM to 223Rem. They all came with pressure points but all were eventually floated by me. Stocks included walnut, plastic, laminate and fibreglass.

In general terms average group size didn’t change much from before to after floating; consistency of point of impact did though.

In other words the slightly wandering POI shift disappeared with floating.

How did the patches look when You cleaned it ?

I don't know how to describe them. Powder residue came out for many patches with Hoppes #9. Then I switched to Eliminator Bore Cleaner and got a little more powder residue plus green/blue signs of copper but some of that at the end were false positives caused by the brass follower I was using. The Hoppes Copper Cleaner didn't seem to do too much.

everybody's standards are different.

1/2 inch on a hunting rifle. Is well enough for me.

If I shot a 1/2" group with any of my hunting rifles I would assume it was a one inch group with a pulled shot! ; )

I might not shoot it at paper again!

Yeah, i would also bed the rifle. Sounds like its sophisticatedly a piece of chit right now. When a rifle is glass bedded properly, it doesnt matter how many times you pull it from the stock, poi should not change. A properly bedded rifle isnt as finicky about action screw torque either. I wonder when people will ever get that? Thread after thread of why my rifle shoots like chit, and every time, said rifle isnt properly glass bedded or freefloated.. Id also make sure the new trigger isnt contacting the stock. Dremel out the stock a little if you have to, but be sure there is sufficient clearance. That could play havoc on group size..

+1 personally amazed that he didn't mention removing material for the timney. I have not had a vanguard yet that didn't need that and it can be a subtle removal of material, if not removed the trigger might have limited safety function. The factory bedding job(LOL) would be another source of non repeatable accuracy. I had a SUBMOA that had no release agent put on the front screw.

I just noticed this thread I created and wanted to give some follow-up.

After my hunt, I took both Vanguards to the gunsmith and had him check very closely to see if the Timney Triggers were touching the stocks anywhere. He said they weren't. I had him remove a tad more stock just to make absolutely sure. I also had him give them both a good cleaning even though I had given the RC model a super cleaning just before my hunt.

Neither of these changes made any difference in group size.

I went back to the Weatherby website and did some reading and noticed this recommendation for placing the barreled action:

1) Insert the rear action screw and tighten only sligtly
2) Center the barrel in the barrel channel and hold it there. Insert the front action screw and tighten to 35 inch pounds. Finish tightening the rear action screw to 35 inch pounds.

Note: The stock on the standard Weatherby is pretty tight all around the barrel at the fore-end tip, so it is pretty much already centered. The Bell and Carlson stock on the Weatherby has a good size space on each side of the barrel. I haven't measured it but a .045" business card will slip by until it hits the pressure point.

On the RC, I noticed that barrel was not centered, so I centered it. This immediately brought down group sizes. They're about 3/4" now with my hand-loads.

The regular stocked Vanguard didn't change much but it also is about 3/4" (sometimes 1") but with 2 shots often touching, with both action screws at the recommended 35 inch pounds. The standard Weatherby definitely has a firm pressure point, except on the upper sides.

One interesting thing is that before I centered the RC barrel, I could slide a .010" piece of computer paper past the pressure point. Now, I can't. So, centering somehow brought the barrel back closer to the pressure point but I can still slip a piece of telephone book paper past the pressure point so it isn't actually in contact. Now, I have to admit, I never actually tried to slip phone book paper past the pressure point, so I can't say for sure that the pressure point was ever in play, but I suspect it was.

One theory I have is the with the gap uneven, the barrel lug wasn't sitting flat against the back of the lug slot and that hurt group size, somehow.

It may have be carbon in the throat of the rifle. Carbon can sometimes build up in the area just in front of the case. I’ve found that it takes sometime for the carbon to soften up in front of the throat with most solvents. I now use jb bore cleaner to take care of the carbon in the throat.( works well for that along with jacket fouling ) . It works fast .Ive also heard that Ballistol works good for throat maintenance, but I cannot confirm that personally.

It seems some powders are worse than other for carbon build up.

There is no big trick to bedding a vanguard. In fact they are easier than most to bed properly.

You definitely don’t have enough clearance between the barrel and pressure point. That or you need some pressure on the barrel. Sounds like you are in between with clearance right now. I am talking about the RC.

Carbon, or anything to do with cleaning wouldn't explain why my groups cut themselves in half after I reseated the barreled action in the stock the "correct" way.

I'm leaving everything alone for now until after my next hunt but after I get back I'm going to experiment with bringing the pressure point back into contact with the stock.