Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Merkel Safari 375 H&H double gun - your thoughts?

Have an opportunity to purchase a used one from a private party - still 99%. Has one lion to its credit. For those who have more familiarity with such gems, what are your thoughts when compared to other double guns? I have no demonstrable need as of yet, but the feel, swing and heft are very appealing. Yes, expensive - over $8k - not so appealing.
Thanks in advance.

I have a Merkel 140A double in 500NE. Balance is perfect and I can throw it to my shoulder and the sights are in the right place instantly. Regulation is spot on for a variety of loads including 450grain and 570grain jacketed, 600 grain North Forks and 430grain cast. Oddly point of impact is the same for the 450 and 570 grain loads at 50m and 100m using the same rear sight setting of 25m. I use the 75m rear leaf for the 430gn cast loads for point of aim at 50m. The cast loads start crossing over between 50 and 100m.

Mine has ejectors, standard on the 500 but may be an option on the 375. Mine will "double" (ie fire both barrels) if the rear trigger is pulled first - seems to be a common problem on the bigger kickers (500NE and 470NE) but okay if the front trigger is pulled first.

Overall I'm very happy with this rifle and don't intend to ever sell it. They cost about $15k AUD down here but I got mine second hand several years ago for $9k AUD - it had only fired 8 rounds.

Bet it gets interesting when both barrels fire at the same time.

I’ve shot a Merkel 500 NE, never when it doubled.

DF

I can't imagine spending a plugged nickel for a double rifle that "doubled" - that's called a broken rifle in my book. But I guess it takes all kinds.

How to develop a flinch with class!

Doubt it was bought with that in mind.

I would think there would be a fix, although I've heard that can be an issue with the Merkel.

I'd be on the phone with Merkel. In the mean time, would be careful to only pull the front trigger first...

DF

I've shot a Merkel .470 NE with no problems.



If I had the money a Merkel .470 or .500 NE would be at the top of the list.

You better believe it. The idea of a known safety issue like that in a >$10K gun is pretty incredible.

You better believe it. The idea of a known safety issue like that in a >$10K gun is pretty incredible.

Either one would make a great wabbit gun...

DF

You bet!

Euro Optics is selling new Merkel double rifles for $7,999. I'd check with them before you buy a used one for more money.

Have they addressed the doubling issues? This isn’t the first time I’ve heard that.

DF

My grandson and his buddy were 12 and14 years old when David brought those rifles to the Campfire gathering at Armijo Springs. David let them shoot as long as they wanted--and they had a blast. My daughter said that when they got back home, they were showing everyone the purple bruises on their shoulders and bragging about how they could handle the big doubles.

I owned a Merkel double in 470 NE for 10 years before I sold it. Too old to volunteer for that kind of recoil now. It was very accurate and it never double fired on me. I would think one in 375 would be a nice gun.

I don't think so. They're advice (third hand) is to always fire the RH barrel first (front trigger) - this works. It shouldn't be too hard a fix though - I haven't bothered yet because I always fire the RH barrel first. Hasn't doubled on me yet, but I cottoned on to the problem early on when firing single shots - I discovered that the right ejector would also fire off after opening after firing the LH barrel only. The ejectors only fire when the sear has been tripped. My rifle also has cocking indicators on the side and you can see what sear has tripped before opening the action. The LH barrel sear has never tripped for a RH barrel shot.

That front trigger is sensitive - even my cast loads will cause it to trip if I fire the LH barrel first. One day I'll get it fixed.

I've also pulled it apart and there is a sear interceptor (spring loaded, recoil operated) but only on the rear trigger - maybe this stops it from tripping. I could pull it out temporarily and see what it does.

Given it's such a fine rifle to fire, and never does it with RH barrel first, I'm happy with it as it is. Maybe this is why the original owner got rid of it - happy to lose $6k on a new rifle. I'm sure it wouldn't cost this much to fix, but don't know why Merkel won't come to the party and fix as a design fault.

ElkhunterNM - that looks to be a mighty fine rifle!

Maybe one belongs in your collection of big bores?

Guy

It is a fine looking rifle and it handles very well in my hands.

My wife shot it and really wanted one till she saw the prices. I have always wanted a big bore double rifle,but I'm more comfortable with a bolt action.

My daughter and wife shot it with light loads.

Daughter.


Wife.


I even shot a light load.

Biebs,
Thanks for the lead about Euro Optics. To the issue on doubling - I'd be on the phone pronto no matter cartridge is stamped on the barrels.

Sweet talk Judy about the danger from those aggressive NM jackwabbits and how you need a really fast handling big gun for quick follow up shots.

I'm sure she'll understand...

DF

I'll work on it.

This of course is completely unsatisfactory but endemic on Merkels. You should send it back to them for repair. As to the prospective buyer:
1. I would not own a double unless it was a rimmed cartridge
2. I wouldn't own a Merkel unless I could steal it and 8K is WAY overpriced for a used Merkel and in that caliber.
3. I wouldn't own a Merkel for personal use on a dare.

The “double-fire” issue would be a no-go for me. Also, double guns were originally made for the big, low-pressure rimmed cartridges, not the more modern rimless ones; and this would go in spades for me especially if used for dangerous game.

I can’t speak to the asking price.

Jorge - since I know very little about double rifles - What is your preferred make of double?

Entirely out of curiosity, as they're out of my price range!

Thanks, Guy

Guy: If money was no object, a British double without a doubt and a sidekick to boot. Now for us mere mortals, in my opinion, the BEST VALUE out there (and BTW the strongest action) would be a Verney-Carron. They are wonderfully made bespoke rifles, for a fraction of the cost of a Brit. You can get into one for around 15K/

Thanks!

And Ken at Kebco, the US importer for Verney Carron , is a pleasure to deal with.

I have an Alfred Schilling custom 500 Nitro built on a Merkel action, it's wonderfully accurate at 2168 fps with both the 570gr TSX and Barnes banded flat nosed solids, it has never doubled on me, I do fire the front [soft point] trigger first on all my doubles, I also agree with Jorge, rimmed cartridges only for ANY double rifle, and the V/C doubles are bank vault tight and just as tough.

You bet Biebs, I talked to Ken one night about a nice light round action bespoke V/C in 450-400 Nitro, I was drooling off the back porch at conversation end, he's a hell of a nice guy and easy to talk too, sounds like he really loves his job, a real pleasure.

On Merkel rifles doubling:

The rifle in the photos above is mine. I still have it. It does not double. At one time, however, it did. The rifle was at least 5 years old when I bought it, and I probably shot it a year before I had issues. Resolution was a simple matter. I called Steyr, the Merkel importer to the USA, and spoke with Herbert. Herbert is not Miss Congeniality but knows what he is doing. I sent it back, waited a week or two, and voila, no more trouble. I asked what the problem was and was told nothing, but the sears and interrupters were replaced? If nothing was wrong, why replace them? Newer design. I can't find fault with the service I received from Merkel as the buyer of a used rifle many years after the original sale.

Merkel has not sat by and done nothing about this issue for the past ten years, contrary to popular internet armchair experts. What I don't understand is, why is it so difficult for some people that have issues to get resolution? One of the things Herbert quizzed about the double issue is, is it the rifle or the shooter? He will tell you that you are to shoot the front trigger (right barrel) first. That is the way the barrels are regulated.

From my limited experience, most of the doubles with my rifle were shooter error. That is fairly easy to discern by simple observation. With shooter error, the second shot is typically well above the target measured in feet. I've seen some shoot near the top of a 10 foot berm directly behind the target. If the rifle doubles the second shot above the target can be measured in inches. When the rifle doubled on me, the first shot hit near the POA while the second shot hit directly above the first shot 16 inches or so higher.

All this being said, some years ago Jorge and I had a running total of Merkel rifles that had doubled. If I recall, the list was 15 or 18 instances that we had reasonable assurance that doubling was rifle related, not shooter related. No third hand, or someones cousins, uncles, brother in laws, sisters, friend that had the issue. I'm sure Jorge, being the shy, reserved, type, will correct any discrepancies here.

Should one desire to actually own and shoot a Merkel, I suggest the following:
1. Buy one with confidence that it will shoot just fine without doubling, especially a new rifle. If you buy a used one that doubles, call Herbert and he will tell you what you need to do.
2. Should said purchase have any issues, don't jump on the internet and bitch about what a POS you have. Go directly to Herbert at Steyr (Merkel importer to the USA) and get any issue resolved.
3. For those that don't know how to contact companies via the internet, here is the information:
Steyr Arms USA
2530 Morgan Road
Bessemer, AL 35022
P: (205) 417-8644 (you will have to ask for Herbert. He does not answer the phone.)
F: (205) 417-8647
4. If you live outside the USA, you're on your own. You will have to deal with whatever issue you have as best you can. If you are resourceful, you may get resolution.

Maybe I am an "internet expert" but I've bee tracking these doubling issues here and over on AR for years (ask Biebs ). This rifle here makes it SIXTEEN separate ones that I've personally witnessed or reports from credible witnesses . The "strumming the trigger" excuse appears to afflict only Merkel owners. To be fair, Merkel has been very good about fixing the issue, but the issue IS there. As far as regulation, the shooting the first barrel first is indicative of cost cutting. ANY decent double will regulate regardless of what trigger you pull first, at least the ones I've tried do. To continue, I'm not paying that kind of coin only to send the rifle back and a PLASTIC grip cap? I mean really.

Excellent - thanks for that info. Trouble is that I'm in Australia and it's much more difficult dealing with the distributers over here, but I now have some "extra ammo" to try again. Given what has transpired in the meantime, maybe they are more willing to come to the party. It's too good a rifle to give up on. I was eventually going to get a gunsmith over here to have a look at it, but that's another issue in itself. It's hard to find a good, affordable double rifle gunsmith over here who can do it in any reasonable timeframe.

I had an opportunity to speak to Helmut/Herbert in Bessemer Alabama today. Quite a heavy accent. My reason was to get an owners manual for my 470E Merkel SxS. I mentioned the "doubling" issue and he said the majority of the problem is operator error. The right barrel/ front trigger must be fired first. The second barrel must be fired in 10-15 seconds because the heat from the right barrel with change the poi for the left barrel if you wait too long. The rifle is regulated to 50 meters with a 300 grain bullet. He also explained the German Proof Mark code. Just reporting what I was told today.

Really great information from the contributors to this post. I've had an unscratched "itch" for a DR for years. I nearly bought a new Merkel but it just didn't fit properly. Had the same experience with Kreighoff. I still continue to look. I'd love to have a Verney-Carron, Just cannot justify going the bespoke route.

There may be many operator errors but there are also known rifle errors as Paladin has pointed out.

I've seen a copy of a Merkel manual that advises firing the RH barrel for reasons of regulation and that's why I always done it that way. But that should not be an excuse for double discharge - a double rifle shouldn't double discharge irrespective of which barrel is fired first. Imagine accidentally pulling the rear trigger first and having both barrels fire during a cape buffalo charge - not good.

Read the above post, right from Merkel and a perfect reason why not to own one.... "operator error MY ASS. There are virtually ZERO threads/posts here or over on Accurate Reloading, the "Mecca" (no pun indented) of Double Rifle information, on other makes doubling as often as Merkels do and the notion of the first barrel having to be fired first is bullshit, not to mention the 10-15 second "wait" before firing the second barrel. If that were the case, WTF good is a double rifle is you have to wait that long for a second shot on a charging animal? PASS ON THE MERKEL

I agree that the regulation reason is rubbish. I've shot competition where there is one event where you fire 4 shots in16 seconds, and a match might comprise 16 rounds all up in a matter of minutes. The barrels get too hot to touch and you have to wear a glove on the supporting hand because of the slim foreend stock (fingers wrap over barrels). Blackpowder heats up the barrels even faster. All this with no noticable effect on regulation or accuracy.

I've also taken single shots minutes apart while testing loads and again no change in accuracy or regulation.

I've pulled mine apart and there is a single recoil activated interceptor on the rear trigger/seat - not sure exactly how it works. Probably wouldn't double if there was one on the front trigger mechanism too.

I still can't rubbish Merkel - it shoots and handles so well as long as you use the front trigger first.

Jorge, stop being so coy....tell us how you REALLY feel about Merkels :-)

I think I could reload a Ruger #1 and have time left over...

Could probably fire and reload a third round in that much time.

And the Ruger is a heap cheaper than a Merkel.

DF

What's being missed here is Helmut/Herbert said [WAITING] longer than 10-15 secs 'can' cause accuracy issues from one barrel heating the other, firing rapid shots would further distance that from happening, if it does at all, mine does not.

Jorge,

You were the farthest from my mind when I mentioned 'internet expert'. You sir, have far too much field/practical experience to even come close to that description. If you will please reread my post, I mentioned you specifically and OUR count of the Merkel rifles known to double.

As far as the 'shoot the right barrel and wait', even from Helmut/Whoever, that is nonsense. As pointed out above, can, is the operative word, not the definitive word. That may be the way they are regulated, but that does not mean that is the only way they can be fired.

I've shot mine in too many competitions to think that it has to be shot in a certain manner, and in fact, the left barrel shoots better for the first round than the right. That being said, I shoot the left barrel as often or more than the right, and it still does not double.

I said it above and I'll say it again. Most of the doubles from my rifle have been from shooter error. At least 30 people have shot my rifle, if not more, and I'm pretty certain I can tell shooter error from rifle issues.

Paladin, no worries, sir. I did not take offense, if for no other reason the internet is full of them. I agree with you a LOT of doubling occurs as a function of trigger strumming, but even Merkel has finally recognized the issue and stepped up to correct.t

Well, as I said it was the Merkel rep in Alabama explaining the doubling issue. I presume there is room for both "operator error" and "design flaw" in this debate. He also said because the forward trigger controls the right barrel, this is where the operator could error during recoil. Plus this would not be "
doubling" it would be a "double tap". As for the 10-15 second time frame, Jorge, he said you had to fire the left barrel WITHIN 10-15 seconds before the issue of heat alerting the poi of the left barrel. He did NOT say you had to wait 10-15 seconds - obviously that makes no sense.

Definite design fault. The problem is doubling when the rear trigger is pulled first - there's no way doubling can be caused by the finger slipping onto the other tigger.

Correct, shots are best made within a certain window of time when regulating SxS rifles.




What was posted by whoop was straight forward for most, but we must acknowledge the CF has some special needs types
that still require assistance in understanding such.

No. Timing sequence in a properly regulated double has nothing to do with time OR barrel selection.

Well, agreement here is a wonderful thing, although fleeting.

I have to say between my custom built 500 Nitro on a Merkel action, a big Verney/Carron 577 all the way down to a little RB Rodda 303 Brit double, I haven't noticed ANY issues with bullet placement firing a shot at game, or shooting around the farm walking around with sticks shooting rocks, dirt clods and stumps, sometimes several minutes between shots, for an hour or two at a time.

Yo guns wouldn’t dare misbehave.

They’d be afraid.

DF

Damn right DF, i'll lock them up in a 5500lb safe and they'll not see the light of day for months!

If your guns misbehave,send them to me,I'll straighten them out.

It's a done deal Elk!

On some helpless jackwabbits, no doubt...

DF

I just sent Elk a cell pic of a handful of 500 Nitro bull Elephant solids, just a little get well soon, and get over there and shoot one motivation!

Don't think he'll need that much motivation. I think he's on the mend, big guns and wabbits waiting...

DF

YUP!

Merkels are great guns and of there higher grade guns they had solid attention to detail. This is a stout action and should sound very solid upon opening and closing, that means no ringing pinging or dinging when the top lever closes. The barrels should come down with slight friction not just fall to the drop. The top lever doesn't need to be "slightly to the right" for a "tight gun" I've seen guns the folks beat a burr up with a hammer on your locking surfaces to falsely get tight guns, top levers should stop softly not slap shut tight.

Hope this helps some you

Andrew

FYI, detailed review of a Merkel .500 N.E. in the current edition of Rifle magazine.

I own 3 Merkels, 500, 375 and 30-06
I have had no problems with the 375, It does recoil more the my M70 amd Browning A bolt but overall it is a keeper

My 500 has doubled twice with factory hornady and the recoil is tremendous and I am 230 lbs, I bought it new and it was back twice due to the doubling. The head gunsmith at Merkel asked me if I knew how to shoot a double and I told him one barrel at a time
The 30-06 is like a 22, much smaller frame and lighter

bigwhoop,

with respect to your initial question, I have no experience with Merkel DRs.

However, I've owned 2 Krieghoffs, both 500NE 3" and used them successfully on elephant. I believe DRs are intended for close work on very large DG, so I would not use one in 375H&H. IME the 375 is a great cartridge - which will work on large DG - but better suited to a bolt rifle, IMO, where its accuracy, range and power are most advantageously exploited.

I am a very big fan of DRs, but would only consider one chambered for the traditional large bores designed for DRs such as the 450NE 3 1/4", 470NE, 500NE 3". YMMV

The only reason I would ever buy one is if I had to guide tourists where there were elephants, buffalo,....and the animal could be shot only if it charged to w/in distance of 10 paces or less. I would then buy .470NE or .500 NE to carry.

I have a 140AE in .450-400 3" It works perfectly.

I have a different take on what the poster might consider and at a considerably lower price for a good quality DR.

What's wrong with a 9.3X74R? They are a small step down from a 375 H&H FM, and nice to shoot as recreation.

How old is your rifle?

about five years old

I'll have to go back and read the previous posts/threads, sounds like your rifle may be a more recent version with the fix. At some stage Merkel made modifications. I got mine secondhand in 2011 (but was almost new) and it has the doubling issue (it's in 500NE but otherwise the same model).

If the point of the double is dangerous game shooting (vice just having fun with the big guns), then I would point out that a good bolt rifle may be an even better choice than the exalted doubles.

A practiced rifleman with a good bolt rifle is a little slower for two shots than he would be with the double. But he is far quicker with three or four. And if reliability is in question (a la the Merkel discussion), the Mauser rifle (or it’s derivative, such as Model 70, Dakota 76, Ruger RSM, etc.) wins the race going away.

But he certainly won’t look as good!

I would not buy a 375 H&H in a double rifle. It has a belted case. The 450/400 Nitro is the recommended minimum cartridge for Elephant even though the 375 is the Legal minimum. The 450/400 has a little more power than a 375 and a 400 grain bullet instead of a 300 grain. It is a Cream Puff in a double rifle!!!

Enjoy the comments. The rifle is still there.