I . Mine will "double" (ie fire both barrels) if the rear trigger is pulled first -
This of course is completely unsatisfactory but endemic on Merkels. You should send it back to them for repair. As to the prospective buyer: 1. I would not own a double unless it was a rimmed cartridge 2. I wouldn't own a Merkel unless I could steal it and 8K is WAY overpriced for a used Merkel and in that caliber. 3. I wouldn't own a Merkel for personal use on a dare.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
The “double-fire” issue would be a no-go for me. Also, double guns were originally made for the big, low-pressure rimmed cartridges, not the more modern rimless ones; and this would go in spades for me especially if used for dangerous game.
I . Mine will "double" (ie fire both barrels) if the rear trigger is pulled first -
This of course is completely unsatisfactory but endemic on Merkels. You should send it back to them for repair. As to the prospective buyer: 1. I would not own a double unless it was a rimmed cartridge 2. I wouldn't own a Merkel unless I could steal it and 8K is WAY overpriced for a used Merkel and in that caliber. 3. I wouldn't own a Merkel for personal use on a dare.
Jorge - since I know very little about double rifles - What is your preferred make of double?
Entirely out of curiosity, as they're out of my price range!
Guy: If money was no object, a British double without a doubt and a sidekick to boot. Now for us mere mortals, in my opinion, the BEST VALUE out there (and BTW the strongest action) would be a Verney-Carron. They are wonderfully made bespoke rifles, for a fraction of the cost of a Brit. You can get into one for around 15K/
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I have an Alfred Schilling custom 500 Nitro built on a Merkel action, it's wonderfully accurate at 2168 fps with both the 570gr TSX and Barnes banded flat nosed solids, it has never doubled on me, I do fire the front [soft point] trigger first on all my doubles, I also agree with Jorge, rimmed cartridges only for ANY double rifle, and the V/C doubles are bank vault tight and just as tough.
And Ken at Kebco, the US importer for Verney Carron , is a pleasure to deal with.
You bet Biebs, I talked to Ken one night about a nice light round action bespoke V/C in 450-400 Nitro, I was drooling off the back porch at conversation end, he's a hell of a nice guy and easy to talk too, sounds like he really loves his job, a real pleasure.
The rifle in the photos above is mine. I still have it. It does not double. At one time, however, it did. The rifle was at least 5 years old when I bought it, and I probably shot it a year before I had issues. Resolution was a simple matter. I called Steyr, the Merkel importer to the USA, and spoke with Herbert. Herbert is not Miss Congeniality but knows what he is doing. I sent it back, waited a week or two, and voila, no more trouble. I asked what the problem was and was told nothing, but the sears and interrupters were replaced? If nothing was wrong, why replace them? Newer design. I can't find fault with the service I received from Merkel as the buyer of a used rifle many years after the original sale.
Merkel has not sat by and done nothing about this issue for the past ten years, contrary to popular internet armchair experts. What I don't understand is, why is it so difficult for some people that have issues to get resolution? One of the things Herbert quizzed about the double issue is, is it the rifle or the shooter? He will tell you that you are to shoot the front trigger (right barrel) first. That is the way the barrels are regulated.
From my limited experience, most of the doubles with my rifle were shooter error. That is fairly easy to discern by simple observation. With shooter error, the second shot is typically well above the target measured in feet. I've seen some shoot near the top of a 10 foot berm directly behind the target. If the rifle doubles the second shot above the target can be measured in inches. When the rifle doubled on me, the first shot hit near the POA while the second shot hit directly above the first shot 16 inches or so higher.
All this being said, some years ago Jorge and I had a running total of Merkel rifles that had doubled. If I recall, the list was 15 or 18 instances that we had reasonable assurance that doubling was rifle related, not shooter related. No third hand, or someones cousins, uncles, brother in laws, sisters, friend that had the issue. I'm sure Jorge, being the shy, reserved, type, will correct any discrepancies here.
Should one desire to actually own and shoot a Merkel, I suggest the following: 1. Buy one with confidence that it will shoot just fine without doubling, especially a new rifle. If you buy a used one that doubles, call Herbert and he will tell you what you need to do. 2. Should said purchase have any issues, don't jump on the internet and bitch about what a POS you have. Go directly to Herbert at Steyr (Merkel importer to the USA) and get any issue resolved. 3. For those that don't know how to contact companies via the internet, here is the information: Steyr Arms USA 2530 Morgan Road Bessemer, AL 35022 P: (205) 417-8644 (you will have to ask for Herbert. He does not answer the phone.) F: (205) 417-8647 4. If you live outside the USA, you're on your own. You will have to deal with whatever issue you have as best you can. If you are resourceful, you may get resolution.
How many obama supporters does it take to change a light bulb? None, they prefer to remain in the dark.
The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.
Maybe I am an "internet expert" but I've bee tracking these doubling issues here and over on AR for years (ask Biebs ). This rifle here makes it SIXTEEN separate ones that I've personally witnessed or reports from credible witnesses . The "strumming the trigger" excuse appears to afflict only Merkel owners. To be fair, Merkel has been very good about fixing the issue, but the issue IS there. As far as regulation, the shooting the first barrel first is indicative of cost cutting. ANY decent double will regulate regardless of what trigger you pull first, at least the ones I've tried do. To continue, I'm not paying that kind of coin only to send the rifle back and a PLASTIC grip cap? I mean really.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
The rifle in the photos above is mine. I still have it. It does not double. At one time, however, it did. The rifle was at least 5 years old when I bought it, and I probably shot it a year before I had issues. Resolution was a simple matter. I called Steyr, the Merkel importer to the USA, and spoke with Herbert. Herbert is not Miss Congeniality but knows what he is doing. I sent it back, waited a week or two, and voila, no more trouble. I asked what the problem was and was told nothing, but the sears and interrupters were replaced? If nothing was wrong, why replace them? Newer design. I can't find fault with the service I received from Merkel as the buyer of a used rifle many years after the original sale.
Merkel has not sat by and done nothing about this issue for the past ten years, contrary to popular internet armchair experts. What I don't understand is, why is it so difficult for some people that have issues to get resolution? One of the things Herbert quizzed about the double issue is, is it the rifle or the shooter? He will tell you that you are to shoot the front trigger (right barrel) first. That is the way the barrels are regulated.
From my limited experience, most of the doubles with my rifle were shooter error. That is fairly easy to discern by simple observation. With shooter error, the second shot is typically well above the target measured in feet. I've seen some shoot near the top of a 10 foot berm directly behind the target. If the rifle doubles the second shot above the target can be measured in inches. When the rifle doubled on me, the first shot hit near the POA while the second shot hit directly above the first shot 16 inches or so higher.
All this being said, some years ago Jorge and I had a running total of Merkel rifles that had doubled. If I recall, the list was 15 or 18 instances that we had reasonable assurance that doubling was rifle related, not shooter related. No third hand, or someones cousins, uncles, brother in laws, sisters, friend that had the issue. I'm sure Jorge, being the shy, reserved, type, will correct any discrepancies here.
Should one desire to actually own and shoot a Merkel, I suggest the following: 1. Buy one with confidence that it will shoot just fine without doubling, especially a new rifle. If you buy a used one that doubles, call Herbert and he will tell you what you need to do. 2. Should said purchase have any issues, don't jump on the internet and bitch about what a POS you have. Go directly to Herbert at Steyr (Merkel importer to the USA) and get any issue resolved. 3. For those that don't know how to contact companies via the internet, here is the information: Steyr Arms USA 2530 Morgan Road Bessemer, AL 35022 P: (205) 417-8644 (you will have to ask for Herbert. He does not answer the phone.) F: (205) 417-8647 4. If you live outside the USA, you're on your own. You will have to deal with whatever issue you have as best you can. If you are resourceful, you may get resolution.
Excellent - thanks for that info. Trouble is that I'm in Australia and it's much more difficult dealing with the distributers over here, but I now have some "extra ammo" to try again. Given what has transpired in the meantime, maybe they are more willing to come to the party. It's too good a rifle to give up on. I was eventually going to get a gunsmith over here to have a look at it, but that's another issue in itself. It's hard to find a good, affordable double rifle gunsmith over here who can do it in any reasonable timeframe.
Last edited by mauserand9mm; 05/08/19.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
I had an opportunity to speak to Helmut/Herbert in Bessemer Alabama today. Quite a heavy accent. My reason was to get an owners manual for my 470E Merkel SxS. I mentioned the "doubling" issue and he said the majority of the problem is operator error. The right barrel/ front trigger must be fired first. The second barrel must be fired in 10-15 seconds because the heat from the right barrel with change the poi for the left barrel if you wait too long. The rifle is regulated to 50 meters with a 300 grain bullet. He also explained the German Proof Mark code. Just reporting what I was told today.
Last edited by bigwhoop; 05/08/19.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
Really great information from the contributors to this post. I've had an unscratched "itch" for a DR for years. I nearly bought a new Merkel but it just didn't fit properly. Had the same experience with Kreighoff. I still continue to look. I'd love to have a Verney-Carron, Just cannot justify going the bespoke route.
I had an opportunity to speak to Helmut/Herbert in Bessemer Alabama today. Quite a heavy accent. My reason was to get an owners manual for my 470E Merkel SxS. I mentioned the "doubling" issue and he said the majority of the problem is operator error. The right barrel/ front trigger must be fired first. The second barrel must be fired in 10-15 seconds because the heat from the right barrel with change the poi for the left barrel if you wait too long. The rifle is regulated to 50 meters with a 300 grain bullet. He also explained the German Proof Mark code. Just reporting what I was told today.
There may be many operator errors but there are also known rifle errors as Paladin has pointed out.
I've seen a copy of a Merkel manual that advises firing the RH barrel for reasons of regulation and that's why I always done it that way. But that should not be an excuse for double discharge - a double rifle shouldn't double discharge irrespective of which barrel is fired first. Imagine accidentally pulling the rear trigger first and having both barrels fire during a cape buffalo charge - not good.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
I had an opportunity to speak to Helmut/Herbert in Bessemer Alabama today. Quite a heavy accent. My reason was to get an owners manual for my 470E Merkel SxS. I mentioned the "doubling" issue and he said the majority of the problem is operator error. The right barrel/ front trigger must be fired first. The second barrel must be fired in 10-15 seconds because the heat from the right barrel with change the poi for the left barrel if you wait too long. The rifle is regulated to 50 meters with a 300 grain bullet. He also explained the German Proof Mark code. Just reporting what I was told today.
Read the above post, right from Merkel and a perfect reason why not to own one.... "operator error MY ASS. There are virtually ZERO threads/posts here or over on Accurate Reloading, the "Mecca" (no pun indented) of Double Rifle information, on other makes doubling as often as Merkels do and the notion of the first barrel having to be fired first is bullshit, not to mention the 10-15 second "wait" before firing the second barrel. If that were the case, WTF good is a double rifle is you have to wait that long for a second shot on a charging animal? PASS ON THE MERKEL
Last edited by jorgeI; 05/09/19.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I agree that the regulation reason is rubbish. I've shot competition where there is one event where you fire 4 shots in16 seconds, and a match might comprise 16 rounds all up in a matter of minutes. The barrels get too hot to touch and you have to wear a glove on the supporting hand because of the slim foreend stock (fingers wrap over barrels). Blackpowder heats up the barrels even faster. All this with no noticable effect on regulation or accuracy.
I've also taken single shots minutes apart while testing loads and again no change in accuracy or regulation.
I've pulled mine apart and there is a single recoil activated interceptor on the rear trigger/seat - not sure exactly how it works. Probably wouldn't double if there was one on the front trigger mechanism too.
I still can't rubbish Merkel - it shoots and handles so well as long as you use the front trigger first.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
I had an opportunity to speak to Helmut/Herbert in Bessemer Alabama today. Quite a heavy accent. My reason was to get an owners manual for my 470E Merkel SxS. I mentioned the "doubling" issue and he said the majority of the problem is operator error. The right barrel/ front trigger must be fired first. The second barrel must be fired in 10-15 seconds because the heat from the right barrel with change the poi for the left barrel if you wait too long. The rifle is regulated to 50 meters with a 300 grain bullet. He also explained the German Proof Mark code. Just reporting what I was told today.
Read the above post, right from Merkel and a perfect reason why not to own one.... "operator error MY ASS. There are virtually ZERO threads/posts here or over on Accurate Reloading, the "Mecca" (no pun indented) of Double Rifle information, on other makes doubling as often as Merkels do and the notion of the first barrel having to be fired first is bullshit, not to mention the 10-15 second "wait" before firing the second barrel. If that were the case, WTF good is a double rifle is you have to wait that long for a second shot on a charging animal? PASS ON THE MERKEL
I think I could reload a Ruger #1 and have time left over...
Could probably fire and reload a third round in that much time.
I had an opportunity to speak to Helmut/Herbert in Bessemer Alabama today. Quite a heavy accent. My reason was to get an owners manual for my 470E Merkel SxS. I mentioned the "doubling" issue and he said the majority of the problem is operator error. The right barrel/ front trigger must be fired first. The second barrel must be fired in 10-15 seconds because the heat from the right barrel with change the poi for the left barrel if you wait too long. The rifle is regulated to 50 meters with a 300 grain bullet. He also explained the German Proof Mark code. Just reporting what I was told today.
Read the above post, right from Merkel and a perfect reason why not to own one.... "operator error MY ASS. There are virtually ZERO threads/posts here or over on Accurate Reloading, the "Mecca" (no pun indented) of Double Rifle information, on other makes doubling as often as Merkels do and the notion of the first barrel having to be fired first is bullshit, not to mention the 10-15 second "wait" before firing the second barrel. If that were the case, WTF good is a double rifle is you have to wait that long for a second shot on a charging animal? PASS ON THE MERKEL
I think I could reload a Ruger #1 and have time left over...
Could probably fire and reload a third round in that much time.
And the Ruger is a heap cheaper than a Merkel.
DF
What's being missed here is Helmut/Herbert said [WAITING] longer than 10-15 secs 'can' cause accuracy issues from one barrel heating the other, firing rapid shots would further distance that from happening, if it does at all, mine does not.
). This rifle here makes it SIXTEEN separate ones that I've personally witnessed or reports from credible witnesses . The "strumming the trigger" excuse appears to afflict only Merkel owners. To be fair, Merkel has been very good about fixing the issue, but the issue IS there. As far as regulation, the shooting the first barrel first is indicative of cost cutting. ANY decent double will regulate regardless of what trigger you pull first, at least the ones I've tried do. To continue, I'm not paying that kind of coin only to send the rifle back and a PLASTIC grip cap? I mean really.