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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,059
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,059 |
I have just this winter made the conversion to copper, TSX and Gmax. I have no expansion experience to share yet, but in conflict with others experience here, no problems with accuracy or pressure indications and no undue copper buildup in the bore. Thus far, .257 Rbts 100 gr., 6.5x55 130 gr., 7x57 140 gr., .30-06 150 gr., 8x57 and 8mm-06 180 gr. The 6.5x55 actually shrunk groups from 1.5 moa to about 1.1 moa (old bullet was 129 SST) The 7x57 was the only caliber to increase group size, going from 1.1 moa to 1.4. I use 5 shot groups. Mostly kept powder charges the same as the original cup and core loads. Did not tweak seating depths. One more word on copper fouling...the first couple shots seems to deposit a pretty good copper wash in the bore, but...it never seems to get any thicker. Heavy coppering can often be detected with the chronograph with 10 shots or more in a string. The velocity will incrementally increase. I do not shoot at game much over 300 yards, so personally I'm not terribly concerned with expansion at extended ranges.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,197
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,197 |
A few things to point out:
It's false that an unexpanded rifle bullet will always make a bore sized exit. Bullets nearly always turn backwards or sideways after they impact even in about half the cases when they do expand first.
So a 338 leaving an exit of about dime size doesn't show it's expanding. It may have a bit but without recovering the bullets you really can't know for sure.
As the former CEO of Cast Performance Bullet Co, I can speak with some authority on this subject. I have fired many thousands of bullets in testing, the ones we made AND every other bullet we could get, to make comparisons. I have burned powder by the pallet load and bullets by the ton in these kind of tests.
When a bullet gets large enough it has a good tendency to kill well, even when it doesn't expand at all. Nearly all muzzle-loader/Black power shooters know this from experience. 58 caland larger bullets kill extremely well when they are only going the speed of a 22 LR, or as slow as a 45 ACP. A trash-can shaped 58 Cal Modern Minie bullet kills very well, when it impacts deer or elk at only 750 FPS, because it's 58 cal to start with, and it's also 500-600 grains.
Anyway, all this is just a side note. The kind of thing shooters often find interesting.
And my counter point about NEVER needing to shoot past 500 meters is something I can say for sure and for certain in MY life. Not ever. Not once. I have over 50 years of experience too.
Have I shot farther? Yup. And plenty of times. But I guess I grew up some.
I am speaking of un-wounded game here, not trying to anchor one that is getting away.
The key here is the word "need". I have seen MANY times hunters could not easily get closer to their game then 500 meters, but I have never seen a single time in 50+ years it was not possible. Not once. Not ever.
That includes hunting in 5 countries and 9 states.
So those that say they "can't" and that they "had to" may be in some very very very small minority, but as for me (and I did say it was my experience, not all experience) I have killed more game then I can count........ and was beyond counting that number about 30 years ago.
A true need to shoot past 500 meters has NEVER happened to me.
You can step down from your soapbox now.....
Luck....is the residue of design... ![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/96zvyt.gif)
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
...
The key here is the word "need". I have seen MANY times hunters could not easily get closer to their game then 500 meters, but I have never seen a single time in 50+ years it was not possible. Not once. Not ever.
...
We may define "need" differently. I've never "needed" to squeeze the trigger at any range. In my much more limited hunting experience, there have been multiple times and a variety of factors where getting closer could not be done "easily" or even with great difficulty. These factors include time available, health limitations of the shooter and motion of the animals. (I've never won a tail chase on elk yet.)
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,993
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,993 |
The way I look at it, if I can make the shot from 500 I don't "need" to get closer.
If someone else feels the need, knock yourself out, just keep me out of the conversation and your value judgments. Your value judgments don't apply to me.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,993
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,993 |
A few things to point out:
It's false that an unexpanded rifle bullet will always make a bore sized exit. Bullets nearly always turn backwards or sideways after they impact even in about half the cases when they do expand first.
So a 338 leaving an exit of about dime size doesn't show it's expanding. It may have a bit but without recovering the bullets you really can't know for sure.
As the former CEO of Cast Performance Bullet Co, I can speak with some authority on this subject. I have fired many thousands of bullets in testing, the ones we made AND every other bullet we could get, to make comparisons. I have burned powder by the pallet load and bullets by the ton in these kind of tests.
When a bullet gets large enough it has a good tendency to kill well, even when it doesn't expand at all. Nearly all muzzle-loader/Black power shooters know this from experience. 58 caland larger bullets kill extremely well when they are only going the speed of a 22 LR, or as slow as a 45 ACP. A trash-can shaped 58 Cal Modern Minie bullet kills very well, when it impacts deer or elk at only 750 FPS, because it's 58 cal to start with, and it's also 500-600 grains.
Anyway, all this is just a side note. The kind of thing shooters often find interesting.
And my counter point about NEVER needing to shoot past 500 meters is something I can say for sure and for certain in MY life. Not ever. Not once. I have over 50 years of experience too.
Have I shot farther? Yup. And plenty of times. But I guess I grew up some.
I am speaking of un-wounded game here, not trying to anchor one that is getting away.
The key here is the word "need". I have seen MANY times hunters could not easily get closer to their game then 500 meters, but I have never seen a single time in 50+ years it was not possible. Not once. Not ever.
That includes hunting in 5 countries and 9 states.
So those that say they "can't" and that they "had to" may be in some very very very small minority, but as for me (and I did say it was my experience, not all experience) I have killed more game then I can count........ and was beyond counting that number about 30 years ago.
A true need to shoot past 500 meters has NEVER happened to me.
You can step down from your soapbox now..... He could, but I don't think he can.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,013
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,013 |
Well hell,
last I looked this was the "Long Range Hunting" part of the Campfire Forums .....
Last thing we need now is some African PH piping up and scolding long range hunters about how he hunted Africa for 50 years and never took a shot beyond 50 yards ...
Whose fault is that ? Get the proper equipment and learn how to shoot at longer range
Have guys talking about how velocity is too low to expand copper solid hollow point bullets at 1000 yards .... aaand they're shooting a 30-06, 375 H&H or some other rainbow trajectory cartridge
Well, their own fault again ..... for example .....my 30 cal has more velocity at 500 yards than yours at the muzzle, same scenario with my 338 and 375 cals
I've dropped moose with 265 gr 338 cal LRX a bit beyond 500 yards and bullet opened up into the classic X, muzzle velocity at 3050 fps from a 338 Edge, anything farther than that I'd use a 265 gr ABLR or 270 ELDX .... OR use a larger 338 cal cartridge to extend the impact velocity ceiling further out for proper bullet performance with the all copper bullets
would you attempt deep sea diving with a snorkel and shorts ?
or get the proper equipment and learn how to use it ?
Last edited by Swamplord; 05/28/19.
"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants".
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,829
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,829 |
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,993
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45,993 |
would you attempt deep see diving with a snorkel and shorts ?
Probably not, but if there was a deep sea diving forum, somebody'd have to be the one to say if you're not in a snorkel and shorts, you're not doing it right.......
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 8
New Member
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New Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 8 |
I’ve tested 14 different bullets from Hammer Bullets ranging from 6mm up to 375 and so far the results have been very consistent. A properly stabilized Hammer Hunter (their higher BC design) will expand predictably to 1800 fps and sometimes lower. Their Sledge Hammer bullets (larger HP and more semi-spitzer nose profile) will expand down to 1600 fps. I’ve personally had poor luck with Cutting Edge bullets but I know plenty of shooters who swear by them.
The problem people run into a lot of times is just not having the bullets properly stabilized. They get accustomed to shooting a 200gr lead core bullet in their 300 Win Mag with a 1-10” twist so they switch to a 200gr mono and get marginal stability with erratic performance on target.
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,793
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,793 |
l told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Make your life go here. Here's where the peoples is. Mother Gue, I says, the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world, and by God, I was right.
- Del Gue
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 994
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 994 |
I have had good luck with Barnes TTSX and TSX in the 270 win, 7x57, 7mm-08, 300 win mag, 338 win mag. Ranges from 65 yards to 519 yards used on game from coyote to bull elk.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
Great bullets but not lead free except for their solid bullets which start at .366" (9.3mm). I use 140 and 160g 7mm, 165g and 180g in .308". Also 350g in .458".
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 428
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 428 |
I have good luck with Barnes TTSX on animals and they are very accurate in my Ruger 375, I have shot a couple of 100 yards 3-shot groups under 1/2 inch and never over 1-inch. They have been effective on black bears never retrieved a TTSX from an animal. I also had good luck with a Hammer Sledge Hammer out of the Ruger 375 this spring on a black bear.
Granted most bullets would probably have had killed the bears taken with the 375 Ruger as it a lot of gun for a black bear, but I like to put two holes in animals when I shoot them.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 971
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 971 |
You should check out Cavity Back Bullets. They were originally developed for the 6.8SPC cartridge and one of the main criteria for them was effective expansion at lower impact velocities (down to 1400 fps). I run them in my 6.8 AR and a 6.5 Grendal TC Encore barrel. They have been extremely effective on deer for me. I have 5 kills with them with shots ranging from 25 yards to 277 yards.
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