Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles AR10 basics?

I came across an 18” fluted 6.5 Creedmoor AR10 barrel and now I need an AR10 education.

From my reading there are not the standards that exist in the AR15 world.

My goal is a lighter weight rifle without going nuts spending money chasing all the ounces. 7-8 pounds without scope is the goal versus the ~13 pound guns out there.

Can you point me in a direction for the basics or line them out for me here?

I bought one of the 20” GII Remington R25 308’s last year. It shoots surprisingly well and is around 7.5lbs with its fluted SS barrel. Their blueprint is not a bad one. Handles like an AR15 and is becoming one of my favorite hunting rifles.

For starters, given your desire for a reasonably light weight rifle - pay close attention to weights of the receivers and handguard you buy (and barrel, but you already have that). In the large frame guns, it's easy to end up with a heavy tank of a rifle if you don't pay attention to the weights.

A couple other things to know that come to mind:

- Do some reading on DPMS vs Armalite (AR10) pattern. Most of us use the term "AR10" as a generic catch-all for the 308 ARs, but technically AR10 and the DPMS pattern 308 are two different things. DPMS pattern parts are more common and seem to be the way the 308 AR industry is going IMO. There is also "high rail" and "low rail" within the DPMS pattern, low rail is the most common.

- Receivers are best bought as matching pairs, or at least from the same manufacturer. Don't expect Brand A upper to match perfectly with Brand B lower, since they are not standardized like the AR15, as you mentioned.

- for the recoil system, you can use either one of two combinations of parts - a standard length (AR15) buffer tube and special 308 buffer, or a 308 length (extended) buffer tube and standard AR15 buffer. Personally I prefer the extended buffer tube because the AR15 buffers are more common.

- Pretty much all 308 ARs have some combination of proprietary and standard AR15 internal parts - which parts are proprietary depends on the manufacturer. Most can use standard AR15 triggers (but not all), but other parts such as takedown pins, bolt catch, etc may be proprietary to the receiver manufacturer.

- Plan to use an adjustable gas block from the start. You'll most likely need it.

Hope that helps.

You hit on a lot of good points. When I was looking for an "AR10", I contemplated building my own, but then realized it would be far easier to buy one because the "AR10" is not so much "plug and play" like the ar15. I did research and found this to be useful information:

AR10 308 COMPATIBILITY

I damn near bought a Remington like the previous poster bought. That seemed to be exactly what I was looking for, but happened to luck into a real AR10 (Armalite) and decided to buy that.... That way, I can actually call mine an AR10 and not get scrutinized about it ... Mine doesn't have an adjustable gas block either, but that's how the cookie crumbles. I believe one would be nice, but I'm not messing with my rifle, as it runs like a fu cking top...:






The only thing I noticed was when running factory ammo (federal gold medal match), the rifle had a few hiccups. But that was remedied with a little grease on the bolt. My AR15's can run damn near dry, but not this AR10..... No failures of any kind now, after finding that out...

Good luck to the OP. A 6.5 Creedmoor AR10 would be bad azzed...

What does the barrel weigh by itself?

I have a 16" 308 rifle that bare weighs 7 1/2lbs, it's the lightest one I have. That is no mag or optics, these things get heavy quickly

Lawrence,

Try the NM load of either imr4895 or h4895 with the 175gr OTM. I would use the nosler rdf. 39.0-39.7 of h4895

You are talking complete upper to include bcg and charging handle?

Thanks buddy.

They are pretty proud of the 175 SMK.. the story on how the "168" became the standard for 1000yd shooting is interesting. In short one of the top shooters of the time shot a world record with the 168 SMK and everyone started using it. Even though it's not ideal for 1000yd shooting. Across the course with a m1a yes. The 175 offer a better BC but, the 175's have the same BC as the 88gr eld-m. If you are using the 224 Valkyrie or 22 nosler heck even the 223/5.56 it's all a wash. I'm shooting 90gr Sierra's from a modified mag in my AR getting close 2500 FPS with H4895.

I'm willing to bet one reason you are slow with 90s is the 4895. We got great accuracy and SLOW speeds, I don't think I burned more than about 3 pounds playing with that before I said never again.

175 jlks I thought were better at 1000 than 185 bergers at the time, but I couldn't shoot all that well when we were shooting M1As. Never got out of MA class. We used to shoot 180 SMKs before they changed the boat tail for some nutty reason.. the old 180s were not all that bad.

The 168 story is same I heard, and makes sense as thats how people think. Even though it was something akin to the 69 in 223, ok, but far from the best shot at it.

That said, IIRC 4895 DID work well in 308. But its been a long time.. and once we bought that 200 pound keg of surplus powder, we didn't use commercial much.

I tried couple powders and I got the best speed with H4895, I'm going to get some 88gr eld-m try it with some Leverevolution. Hell by next year I will have this all figured out lol..

The Sierra 168's were designed as a 300M bullet. They debuted and won at the Mexico City Olympics (They were called 168 Internationals back then). For Highpower hey were initially used in Mexican Match (where the 173 FMJ's were pulled and replaced over the same primered and charged case) I'm guessing because they were closest in weight to the 173's. 168's did well at 600 yards, but ran out of gas at 1k because of their short boat tail out of the M14'S. (Sharpsman will be along shortly to contradict me). The 175SMK's were designed at the request of the USMC who had been working on a product improvement project for ammo to shoot to 1K in the M40A1's. The 175's were essentially a match analog to the 173 FMJ's.

If you're looking for a load for an AR10, try Varget under a 175 or 185 Juggies. It's what the cool kids are using out of their M110's out to 1K.

The 175 SMK isn't much of a 1,000 yard bullet either. The Juggernauts are a big improvement.

Yep it takes some time. Wild that you can't get more than 2500, 90 JLK in 20 inch tube were at 2700 for us. 223 Holliger chambers

I’ll have to weigh it when I get home at the end of this coming week. Thanks!

I shot some critters with my buddy’s 308 AR10 and it is almost at the limit of maximum weight for Idaho. I think it is ~14#. Yes Idaho has a maximum weight limit for hunting rifles. Supposedly they made the law to eliminate 50 cal long range guys.

It sounds like I need a “gen 2” and should plan to stick with one manufacturer for all my parts.

Oh and I just realized you said mag length... no room for powder, that might be killing your speed. But like I said, 4895 just did not get up to speed at all with 80s, think even with them I was only about at 2550 IIRC.

Nimrod, the gen II/DPMS pattern idea is a good one. That way you can use P-mags if you want. I've been eyeballing the Aero Precision M5E1 lowers. They offer everything I'd want in an AR10, except I don't think you can adapt a BADD lever to one yet. If you can, someone please correct me. That is one thing I really like about my Armalite, I have it set up exactly like my AR15's, so muscle memory doesn't have to change a bit. It uses all ambi controls (I shoot left handed), including a BADD lever.


Since I am new to AR's, I want all the controls to be the same so I don't feel like I'm fumbling around....

Yeah that probably whats getting me. I'm going to work on 600yd slow fire round.

Armalite AR10s use PMags too.

Just the older ones from the '90s don't.

You are kind of right, but off a little on the timeline. Mine was made in 2011 and is considered a "B" series. The "A" series was introduced in 2012 and it can use p-mags. That one totally slipped my mind, until you brought it up. Good catch Tyrone. When i think of the Armalite AR10, i always think of the old ones that take the steel mags.

I bought a new 10rnd ASC steel mag recently for hunting use and it had 2 misfeeds the other day in my R25 GII. I’m going to clean it well, inspect the follower for burrs, and try again. Life’s too short for junky mags....

JPro, how accurate is your rifle? I'm talking black rifle challenge accuracy? I am curious, because I was seriously thinking about buying a Remington R25 like yours. I've heard they shoot well. I also hear you on the mags. What would be the best option for guys wanting a 5 round mag for hunting? That could be good info to pass along to the OP... As for me, I only use Armalite mags in mine....

I heard great things about the savage msr, buddy has two
One in 6.5 and 308 win. Im looking at going with a larue build. Upper completed by them and build the lower using larue lower.

That should be sweet as hell and very accurate. They have some good stuff...

My rifle, being a sample of one, shot 3/4MOA for the last two 3-shot groups I shot with it, one at 100yds and one at 200yds, both shooting W-W Deer Season XP ammo. With that ammo being so cheap, I'm not worried about handloading for it right now. The rifle probably only has 50 rounds through it so far. Some 155 Scenar handloads I put through it to first get it on paper and break it in shot MOA or slightly better. I also tried some W-W Copper Impact ammo, thinking it might be good for hogs (and cheap for a TTSX clone), but they were closer to 1.5-2 MOA. Two bolt guns didn't like them either though, so it appears to not be a very forgiving factory load. So the R-25 seems to shoot about as well as I'd expect from a bedded 700 factory sporter. I did swap my trigger for a Rock River Varmint model ($89). The factory trigger was clean, but around 5lbs, so I pulled the RR trigger from by general purpose AR15 and swapped them around.

For magazines, the 4rnd mag that came with the gun has always worked perfectly.

Cool, thanks JPro... I shot my AR10 today and am seriously thinking about turning it into a 6.5 creedmoor....... Threads like these are interesing. I'm wondering what direction the OP is going to go on his build?

What barrel length would you guys recommend for a 6.5 CM? I wanted an 18 or 20 inch at most, than put a ultra 7 tbac suppressor on it?

BSA,
I’ll get around to the 6.5 AR10. I actually won the barrel from X Caliber during their Easter website hunt.
I was (am) in the middle of putting together a 6.5 Grendel “pistol” upper for my kids to hunt suppressed with so all my fun money is tapped out.

They enjoy the low recoil associated with ARs and the simple functionality. I’ll like the extra horse power the Creedmoor will offer. We’re still a few years away from them chasing elk so we’ll get by with the Grendel for deer this fall.

Cool. Let us know when you start building that creed. I shot mine again today... Bolt action though, of course, until I get a barrel for my AR10....

Are you kidding? They were a quantum leap over the 168SMK's for 1K. The 175SMK's gave the Marines M852 accuracy, but the range of M118 out of the M40A1's. You have to remember this was in the early 90's and yes, technology and BC's have improved since then. I visited WTBN during the time M118LR was being fielded. They were getting impressive results out to 1K. Shortly after the adoption of 118LR, some squids won some 1K stuff at Perrry with it (the Marines were forbidden from using their own ammo out of their M14's).

Apologies to the OP...I see that you're talking 6.5 Creed.

Well, yes they were. But as good as the 175SMK is/was, the Jug is even better. You can actually stay supersonic @ 1,000 with a Jug at a sane pressure level. I would NEVER take a 175SMK in a 308 to a LR match now that the Jugs are out.

Yes the Juggies are amazing. I played with JBM a bit, and there's nothing close for wind. Not the 178 A-Max, Not the 175 VLD. FWIW, the beauty of the 175 was that you could keep it supersonic out of an M14 (or M40A1) without running G4 pressures. Have you shot the 185's out of a 20" 308? ie M14 or M110?

So if you had a do-over, what would you change? I ask because I've been pondering that exact rifle for some time as my next hunting rifle. Neither it or the DPMS Hunter seem to get much coverage/reviews, so finding someone with real experience like you is a plus

No, but I shot the 175 SMKs out of an M110 and went away with my tail between my legs.

I still hear echos of "You should have tried Jugs".

The 168 SMK is a great 300 yard bullet and the 175 SMK is a great 600 yard bullet.

dla,

I can't really think of anything I'd want to change, other than that trigger swap and a good 10rnd magazine. The rifle fits me, and I like the furniture that comes on it. LOP is right, cheekweld is right, the forend is slim and stiff, and nothing wiggles. There have been no issues except some feed problems when I introduced the ASC magazine.

Here's my post from when I first bought the rifle:

R-25 GII Impressions

Shooting it since that first range session has revealed sub-MOA to be pretty typical for 3-shot groups at 100 and 200yds. I've still got some other handloads I assembled for initial testing but never got past the W-W factory stuff when I found it shot. I'll shoot them too sometime.

I've been pleased with the purchase so far, and while it is not an inexpensive rifle, I'd buy it again if looking for an autoloader for hunting. It's not a big chunk of a rifle like some AR10 models, and a 20" AR is still fairly compact, about like a 20" bolt gun, without being blasty like the 16" AR carbines.

I'm assuming most mags work. I'm gonna need 5 round magazines in my state for Elk hunting.
I like AR's and I want my next hunting rifle to be a DPMS Gen 2 derivative - the Remington is more my liking. Thanks for the information!

You bet. I'm going to look at PMAGs next.

Where are you guys getting the jugs? I loaded up some 178 ELDM the other day and am very unimpressed with the 2400 fps i was getting.

Id still like to know how that rifle shoots in the black rifle challenge here. 3 shot groups arent really a good indicator of how "accurate" a rifle truly is.... mine shoots sub 1/2 moa 3 shot groups with the load it likes. Hell, it even shoots sub 3/4 moa 5 shot groups out to 450 yards with the 168 Hornady match bullets. But i straight up call it an honest 1.6 moa rifle.

Try Bruno's...but don't let him nick you on the shipping!

Thanks Chris, I'll look into that...

I wasn't familiar with the black rifle challenge, so I took a look. I'm sure it's a good assessment of mechanical accuracy, and I might be interested in such a challenge with a rifle set up to be a PRS rig, or a heavy chunk built for prairie dog towns or possibly just LR targets. The R-25 GII is not what I'd consider for that role, and for me, a lightweight, hunting-style rifle that was purchased for pigs and deer inside 300-350yds does not really require such a stringent test. It'd be interesting, I suppose, but if this rifle will group three shots in 1 MOA in three consecutive groups (especially in different conditions/days/ranges), I consider it a MOA gun for my purposes. Just one three-shot group? Then probably not, although it's always nice to see promising signs of things that may come....

Faxon makes very light weight barrels.
Good adjustable gas block is a good thing.
Aero Precision will sell you a good Lower and upper to get started on the build
Understand:
Dpms high vs low, upper recievers

I don't understand how you could build a light weight rifle without a faxon or something similar.

Thanks Jpro. It's always "interesting" and imformative to see how our rifles shoot, regardless of how heavy they are. Currently, 2 of my lightest rifles I own are known sub moa in the "moa all day long challenge". As for the black rifle challenge here, my lightest barreled AR shoots the best of all of my AR's and it is a cheapy barrel at that. I'd say the barrel profile/contour is similar to your R25. Also, my AR10 will only shoot 1.6 moa in the challenge. Hence the reason for asking how yours does. Another big reason is because I was seriously considering buying a rifle similar to yours. These things were made to shoot. Shooting 3 shot groups is almost pointless when it comes to shooting an AR, even if you are considering it a "hunting" rifle. I don't like to waste my time with 3 shot groups:


They are just plain boring and don't really give you the full jest of what the rifle really shoots like. Again, not calling you out, just wondering how yours really shoots. I could just say mine is a sub 1/4 moa all day long rifle, but in reality it is not...

Funny story, check your new factory rifles over very well when you get them. I just bought a brand spanking new S&W Performance center AR10 6.5 creedmoor and the damn barrel nut was only hand tight!!!!!!!!!!!! SOB..... Seriously, I just took the barrel nut off by hand. Now I need to get a damn wrench. I should have just put one together myself... Lesson learned..

Made a barrel nut wrench this morning. Seasoned the threads at 40 ft. lbs and then did a final torque to 70 ft. lbs. Hand cut out tool worked great. Rifle back together, and yes, I'll post a range report :

Damn messican workforce.. oh wrong thread

What no channel locks? And two grunt torque check

Ha ha.. Happy fathers day to all you old grumpy bastids. Im going to shoot my new fathers day present. Then the kids are taking me out to dinner.

Nice you got a good crew there. Me and my bride are about to go combat fishing down on the Russian river.

Just got my first AR10. I have an AR15 in 5.56 and 6.8. Got this one cheap from PSA. $540 including tax, plus another $25 at the LGS for the transfer. 20" SS barrel 1-10 twist with rifle length gas. I added the MAGPUL stock and a AR Stoner muzzle brake.



Shot it for the first time Saturday. Seems a bit over gassed. Brass was landing 10-12' away and the brass was beat up pretty bad.

First up was a box factory Winchester 150 PP to zero and check cycling on the center target. This ammo shoots about 1.5" in my bolt gun so I was not expecting much. Had one box left so used it here.

Then 3 rounds of SSA 168 gr match factory rounds to check accuracy potential on the left upper orange dot. This was only 3 rounds, but they show great potential for this barrel. Now if I can duplicate that load. That factory ammo shoots the same from my bolt gun.

I had loaded 40 rounds of Hornady 155 amax with a mid range load of CFE223 just to break in the action/barrel, but only fired 10 rounds on the right side of the target.Those were just a tad on the hot side so I will reduce the loads a little. I was not aiming real carefully, more focused on checking the cycling.



My AR15s have adjustable gas blocks and I have them tuned to where they shoot reliably but soft. Brass lands 3' away. I am planning on getting a adjustable gas block for this AR10 and hope to soften it up a little.

Great report on your new rifle. Good luck with it. It looks sweet and one hell of a good deal.

According to Remington, the first gen R25's were heavier:

Type: gas-operated, semi-auto
Caliber: .243 Win.; 7mm-08 Rem.; .308 Win.
Barrel: 20"; free-floated; 1:10" twist
Trigger: single-stage; 4 lbs., 2 ozs. pull
Magazine: 4-round detachable (accepts some other AR-10-style mags.)
Sights: none; Picatinny rail for optics
Safety: two-position
Stock: Zytel; LOP-14.125"
Overall Length: 39.75"
Weight: 8.75 lbs.
MSRP: $1,567

So if you compare your rifle to the GI, the OP can get some hints on getting the weight down to what your rifle weighs. The stock is lighter, the GII also uses a lighter BCG, so if wanting to build a lightweight AR10 6.5 creed, he's going to have to start off with a lightweight barrel and go from there with lighter parts. Maybe he can do some research and see who offers the lightest receivers. The AR10's are all over the board when it comes to receiver heft. I know my new S&W M&P 10 weighs 9 pounds from the factory and it has a pretty slim barrel on it.
The OP wants a 7.5 pound rifle, he's going to really have to work hard to scrape that together. Probably going to have to be more selective on the parts he does buy...

Good thread gave me some answers I needed. I want to build and still might a GII AR-10 with components from PSA. But the other day I managed to swop some outdoor gear I had and no longer need for a Armalite AR-10T looking forward to shooting this. I 've got some high 30 mm tactical rings and am going to use a Mk4 10x Leupold on it. I have some of that SSA brass and a whole pile of FC308 I believe match brass. I thought I would concentrate at first with the various 168 gr bt hp bullets. I appreciate any suggestions on this. MB