Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Prices Seem Suppressed

I've been looking at and considering an AR as a general use carbine.

The first 2 AR15 style rifles listed on Grab-a-gun's page are the Ruger for $479 and a S&W for $499. . I couldn't get GAG's comparison tool to work, but they look about identical.

Thoughts on either or both of these as general use carbines?

I'm not an AR expert but I have put together a couple, and shot them quite a bit over the last few years. Both came from Palmetto State Armory. Both of mine were built from parts kits/stripped lowers/complete uppers. First, I'd say consider building one with a kit and stripped lower. Easy, fun, and you'll know how it all works when you're done. Plus you can save money and get exactly what you want.

I've shot both S&W and Ruger ARs and have friends that have owned a few examples. They are functional and all around decent rifles. The price you found looks good.

But I think you can do better for the same cost, or even less. If I wanted an all around good shooting rifle (not for competition or to carry into combat) and didn't want to build it, I would buy this complete upper https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-5-56-nato-1-7-nit-13-5-mlok-w-nibr-bcg-mbus-ss.html
and complete lower https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...-edition-odg-no-magazine-5165457977.html
and stick them together.

Total cost $450, free shipping, everything except mags and ammo. There are MANY more options and infinite ways to configure if you build yourself. Just an FYI that upper has a light contour "pencil" barrel, which you might want or not, but it comes with some nice components at a great price.

Either will work well. I tend to prefer one with standard parts and, I understand, each of those has some proprietary parts.
But, I'd recommend getting one and enjoying it.

A name brand will tend to hold its value better than a put-together or build.

I have the upper CORDrew linked to.

As he said, $450 all up and it shoots as well as Mrs Walter’s Daniel Defense at 40% or less of the cost.

And weighs a few oz less, similarly configured.

Have to agree with g5m that a bigger name brand will hold resale value better than PSA, but I think PSA has the edge in components/materials for the price. Also, like David, I have the upper that I linked to (identical except I got the stainless barrel instead of nitride) and it is a great shooter. Also PSA's "EPT" trigger is head and shoulders better than Ruger or S&W, and accuracy/consistency benefits of free float handguard

Well after reading all the Bear Creek bashing,once again it's been reinforced to me,that alot of you self-proclaimed experts on here don't know as much as you think.I bought a BCA 7.62x39 carbine 2 weeks ago for $390 including ffl fees.Maybe I lucked-up and got a good one.If so,so did about half dozen of my buddies,but it easily shoots 1moa.It's not rocket science or luck building a rifle that will shoot.Just like bolt guns,there's alot of cheap ar's out there that will shoot.And I have some cash left-over for ammo...

Yessir, at that price, that's a helluva deal...............and for that price, if it needs an upgrade of any kind, it's still very cheap. Not a high end precision rifle, but plenty serviceable.

MM

Sounds like a good candidate for the black rifle challenge here. I dont know which "self proclaimed experts" you are talking about, but i trust a lot of the guys here that have proven their schit actually shoots moa, vs the guys spouting off their cheap builds do it. I guess you could always show us... i had a chance to buy a BCA last month for $300.00, but at the time there was a lot of bad press. Not just at this site, but elsewhere.

Yes, Bull 64, by all means, please shoot some 10 shot groups at 100 yards & show us whatcha got there.

MM

The market is flooded with AR15s and probably will be for awhile, I say just make up your mind on what make you want and shop around. Patience is the key

I do not like the bolt carrier that Ruger is, or was using. So when I think Ruger I feel I need to add 60-$80 for a replacement.

Might not have to be patient for long.

Five weeks to the 4th of July sales.

Yes, I have been seeing more and more builds being sold dirt cheap too. They are advertised like "custom ar priced to sell", "AR reduced for quick sell", "custom precision built AR, never shot, selling dirt cheap".... Etc. etc.... It's a buyers market right now... I've also seen some real nice A2 style older Hbar rifles for sale for sub $500.00 as well... I damn near snagged a couple, but alas, probably not a great idea to just buy all the ones you see just because they are a damn good deal??? I do get a kick out of all the "Custom" AR's I've been seeing for cheap though. I guess that's better wording than I built this thing from a cheap azzed mod1 sales or PSA kit in momma's basement....

Had a similar conversation this morning. Buddy of mine works with a few guys that are quite sure their "custom" builds are just as good as anything else out there. Never mind that they never shoot these sub $400 creations.

Unfortunately, the times of hoarding and inflated prices are not over,
just on a pause.

We will have a Demonrat President again.

LGS here in the valley has two racks full of used AR’s ranging from pieced together stuff to sigsauer AR’s. Low end price $400 plus to high of $1000 plus. But i will never buy a used AR I seen what people do with them at range. One 30 round magazine after another barrel screaming for mercy. When I can just buy parts kit stripped lower from psa be into the build for less than $400. Majority of folks who own these AR’s are not shooting matches with them. They are shooting ball ammo and could give two chits about groups at a 100yds. In the good ol US Army we do a 25meter zero for 300 meters and our carbines/rifles are ready to go.

wash your mouth out

I think you should definitely use that leftover money to buy ammo. Let us know how long that BCA gun lasts.

But that’s what those budget assemblers bank on....The guys shooting $400 guns aren’t the guys shooting enough rounds, with high enough expectations, to ever find out the guns suck.

It all depends on what you want or need to do.

I can build a reliable gun for 500 or less. Might not be Krieger accurate but would be reliable. Will take a bit of elbow grease obviously.

That said I've never shot a 400 buck one in a match. But we do have a couple of them around 500 parted together for vehicle guns and I'd stake my life on either one any day.

So how many rounds does take it for the cheap ones break?

It all depends on what you want or need to do.

I can build a reliable gun for 500 or less. Might not be Krieger accurate but would be reliable. Will take a bit of elbow grease obviously.

That said I've never shot a 400 buck one in a match. But we do have a couple of them around 500 parted together for vehicle guns and I'd stake my life on either one any day.
What are your reloads? I'm always keeping x39 reload data thats good for moa or less. Ball ammo sure won't do that.

OTOH having had bad barrels from even top names, that were getting close to opening up to 3/4 plus MOA, when the normal ones would hover at .5 moa, less for fewer shots in the group... LOL, there are bad barrels and they often come in batches.

To say bear creek is always good is nuts. To say always bad about the same...

Then there are accuracy parameters. I sent a TC barrel back once, they shot it and said it gave 4-5 inch groups at 100, I said yes, exactly. They said thats acceptable. So I junked the TC tube and put a green mountain tube on and was shooting around 1.5 inches with honking slugs at 100 with iron sights.

something aint' right with my posts tonight. LOL its not me. Could be Talkeetna internet though..LOL. Double post, WTF

Exactly it’s always great to see the AR snobs falling out of the roof. At one time a colt made m4 carbine cost the us army about $400 bucks.. i haven’t ran nsn for one in yrs, all the colt made m4 have been turned in up here in our BCT and replaced with FN made m4 carbines.

You just have to love speculation...
Y'all enjoy your discussion.It's too deep for my boots...

I’ve seen as few as 100 or closer to 1000.

That’s what makes them so exciting, you just never know when they’ll crash on you.

Ha ha, i was hoping you werent going old and senile

Well I guess I am an AR snob but being in a mechanical business, I've seen plenty of guys who can't start a nut without cross threading it. It's not always the substance of parts that make them cheap but the quality behind the guys building the parts and putting them together.

Never seen a contract awarded for an M4 that equalled $400, I think when Remington cut everyone's throat a few years back it was around $600. But then again I had a buddy that bought an M16 A1 for less than $200 back in the day.

Problem with cheap AR's is the companies hire people that know nothing about them and the main goal is to build as cheap as possible.that's not a plan to build quality anything but with bogus reviews on the net, people believe parts is parts and 3 shots under MOA once in a while means it's an MOA gun.

But if buying low bid parts assembled by illegals or custom guns built by bubba in their basements blows up your skirt, have at it.

There isn't much built today that isn't built as inexpensively as possible.
Including low bid parts and cheapest possible labor.

Quality standards and enforcement, are the wall against junk.

Bogus Reviews??

Oh, so now we are talking about Anderson.

The way you get to a reasonable priced gun is buy the important parts from known sources.

Things like non staked carrier keys are easy to stake or loctite and I've never had 640 loctite come loose... or the AMU that I'm aware of.

You get a good bolt. Blemished upper and lower. Keeping factory trigger which is junk to me but reliable keeps cost down., Then the rest of the parts are pretty much a non issue. Other than the barrel. And at one point you could get a Wilson barrel from White Oak or CLE reasonably enough. I"m sure its still the case. But with lowers at 30 bucks and blem uppers not that much more...

What else in there is really important ? I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

BUT this is if you know what you are doing, and do it well while having fun putting it together.

I have seen issues, usually not hard to correct, from assembled parts kit type guns.

I have not seen a gun fall apart at 100 or 1000 or more rounds, but falling apart and a minor issue like needing a new extractor are different subjects in my book.

That said, one can usually not go wrong with top names.

There is so much bluster wrapped up in these threads about price, quality, and "just as good". I've said before, I'm not an expert on ARs, but there is something to be said for guns across the spectrum of price levels. I don't have a ton of money(partially because I have to pay my mortgage and am NOT living in my moms basement), I have other expensive hobbies, I like to tinker with things, I trust myself to be capable of solving small problems, and I'm willing to be patient and trust companies (in this case PSA) will stand behind their products in the case of a big problem, and I don't need a rifle for competition or to stake my life on day in and day out. So, I choose to buy "cheap" and accept it for what it is. I won't ever say it is "just as good" as a $3k premium rifle because that statement is so subjective, and contains so much variability,that it is essentially meaningless. And in some very objective and measurable ways it is NOT just as good.

The OP asked about a couple rifles at a low price point, for a "general use" carbine. My guess is that the two he selected would serve him well, as would a package from PSA or another relatively inexpensive rifle. I'm guessing that by "general use" he means informal target shooting, hunting varmints/hogs/etc at shortish ranges, and having a rifle available in case of emergency. An "average" PSA setup will do that, so will the average ruger, or S&W. Would a Noveske do that too? Of course.

Saying that these inexpensive rifles are likely to fail between 100 and 1000 rounds is a gross overstatement. If the majority, or even a large proportion did, these companies wouldn't survive more than a few years in the current competitive market. With a "cheap" gun chances of a lemon are obviously much higher because because of QC, parts variability, etc. But the chance of a lemon with a premium rifle still exists. As with all things, you get what you pay for, unless you just have bad luck. If you offered me the worst gun to come out of a premium high end manufacturer, and the best gun PSA ever produced, I'd take the PSA every time.

What this country needs is more thoughtful ethical gun owners, shooters, and hunters. Not less. Companies like PSA are putting out a huge number of safe and serviceable guns to people who wouldn't otherwise get one.

With all that said, I won't ever buy from BCA because their business practices and ethics suck.

Nothing wrong with some illegal alien labor at the factory..

1-Nobody made that gross overstatement.

2-Yes, those companies would survive. Because....
A-The overwhelming majority of people who buy a $400 rifle will never fire a case of ammo through them. So the companies can put out a garbage product knowing full well that their customer base will never test them to failure.
B-People who buy $400 ARs will buy cheap ammo to shoot through them. When there's a malfunction, just chalk it up to the ammo and keep charging on.
C-People don't know what the heck they're actually talking about. Case in point....The dude who claims he has a 1MOA 7x39 from BCA. No, he doesn't. And his six friends don't either. The standard he's using to measure success is so wildly skewed that companies will absolutely survive selling him garbage products.

I'm not going to argue with you with a keyboard.You win 'Bwana.You know everything about firearms.Hell,you know everything about me.You really are something else...
Y'all enjoy your discussions.

Post up some vids of you and your friends shooting sub-moa and shut him up..............or not.

Some pretty broad assumptions by some on this post concerning what type of ammo we shoot in our sub par it's going to fail between 100-1000 rd AR's. As of now I put 500rds of through my subpar AR. No FTF, no FTE, etc. I have yet to shoot any cheap ammo through it. All been handloaded 75's, 77's, 80's, 88's and 90's. I will be honest my rifle with a 10 shot group is a honest 1.2-1.5 inch rifle at a 100yds. Just shot a 10 shot group this evening 1.2 or so inch. I don't bother posting pictures anymore. I have nothing to prove to any of you yahoos. I do know if I want up my game for the AR tactical or Service rifle competitions I need to get another barrel it will probably be a WOA barrel. But for the average guy shooting orange clay pigeons on the burm inch and half rifle is just fine.

C'mon Blue, these things are sub-MOA ALL DAY LONG!!!!!

See? I even highlighted them for you.

Yes, that's a fact, & in reality, there are a lot more of those rifles than there are sub-MOA rifles (& shooters & ammo) for 10 shots x 2 or 3 or 4.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that either as long as the gun is consistent, that's good shooting.

The rub comes in when lots of guys, here, & on other forums too, try to convince everyone that their single, cherry-picked 3-shot group means that they have a "sub-MOA' rifle, all day, every day, especially on rifles with more or less suspect barrels.

Make of that whatever you want, & like it or not, it is what it is.

Here's a really good article with a slightly different take on accuracy by a guy who knows what he's talking about, Jack Leuba from Knight's Armament (KAC)...........it's worth the time to read it.

MM

Let's Talk About Accuracy

That's insane.

Glad I've never bought any of their stuff, if that's how they think and treat their good customers.

I've made no claims that a rifle that won't shoot MOA or better is worthless, in fact I've said many times that a 1.5 MOA rifle will do anything I need to do. But I'm talking several 10 shot groups one shot right after the other. 3 shots here and there will generally open up, way up, when firing back to back.

I've also never said you must spend thousands of dollars on an AR or it'll be junk. I've spent more for barrels than some of you have spent on a complete gun. I've had and have guns that will shoot 10 shots under MOA but my favorite guns are light weight pencil barrelled rifles and carbines. Most are 1.5 MOA, I do use good triggers, light weight hand guards, good HP and MPI'd bolts, I love the LMT SOPMOD stocks and I've played with brakes and flash hiders that would send some of you penny pinchers over the edge. I use what I like, not what's the cheapest.

I've had cheap parts break, I've seen a bunch more of them broken. I've messed with triggers and never could get one as good as a real trigger. I've had over gassed guns that would pull the rims off cases. I've even had a mini 14....I've even heard about the polymer lowers being "just as good as"

Buy what you want but don't get upset if I don't jump up and down over the "good deal" you got.

Just after Election Day, when Pelosi started her jabber about passing some gun legislation, I broke down and bought a DPMS Oracle, a rifle with a very checkered reputation. It was cheap, and all I wanted it for, was poking old Nancy in the eye anyway.

So far, it's no target rifle, but it hasn't choked and puked yet, either. I don't have any "cheap ammo", just a whole bunch of stuff I'd loaded up for prairie dog shooting fifteen years ago, with a good 50gr. VMax, and a half-grain under max. It shoots pretty well, really, for what I've got in it, and while I have a wad of 30 rounders for it, I mostly use the 10 round PMags. I don't run it hot, as I really don't much care for the thing anyway.

It's sorta fun to shoot, I guess (had my fill of them in the Army a long time ago). It will do what I ask of it, which isn't much. It works, and throws bullets into tolerable groups (1-9" twist), all I ask of it. I don't much care if others like it or not. I didn't buy it for them, anyway.

I got a $1400 model 70 in my gun safe so you are saying you spent $1400 for a AR barrel?

Probably saying he spent more than 400 IE a cheap AR, on an AR barrel. I know I have. I think we still have a backstar that was an ok barrel, and some treatment that had a LONG barrel life.. Thinking the was over 500 bucks...

Probably today a top blank is 300 bucks plus machine work...

PS you can't go wrong with WOA or WOP. But I'd sure take the time to call them and tell em what you are doing and what you want it to do with which bullets and let them give you some advice....

Having had John set me up with a USED shilen in 6/6.8 years ago that shoots 3 shot groups touching with TSX to hunt with, well his advice is usually spot on. And he was not ever in it for the money. He'd sell me a Krieger or whatever cause I demanded it, and tell me all I needed was a shilen, and then proceed to whoop my azz with his shilens.

Lol I figured that’s what he was getting at.. yeah I want a 1-7 twist and the woa spr I want is in back order status for the 1-7. I have all winter to get this put together and be ready to shoot it next year. This year will keep on rocking my budget rifle. Right now it will put 10-75gr eld-m into little over 1.25 maybe less. Won’t set any world records probably won’t finish first but I’m having fun and know what I need to do for next yr.

You spent $1400 for a model 70?

The problem is much worse than we thought...

Their online inventory is not always accurate so give them a call............sometimes they have stuff that doesn't show up online or they have stuff in-process.

They are nice people to deal with. Their stock barrels are hand lapped Wilson's.

Another good alternative is Craddock Precision..............Paul Craddock worked for WOA for a long time before starting his own business; he has Rock Creek, Criterion, Bartlein & Kreiger blanks & is also very easy to work with.

If you're doing a 223 Wylde & 77 gr is the heaviest bullet you are going to shoot, a 1-8" twist will be more than adequate.

MM

Whatever you say big money hustla.. you made it pretty clear “US” common folks can’t hang with you and your big money hustling ways.

Thanks! I like to shoot the 75eld-m bullets and they call for 1-7 twist

Yes, you are right about that bullet, maybe even down to 1-6.5...............I haven't heard a lot good about that bullet, accuracy wise. Most say the 73 is better. I haven't shot either one.

MM

Thats what ive heard too. I know the 73's do very well in my cheap azzed ar's. Actually my bolt guns love them too.

I’m going to do something I don’t normally do anymore post my data
75gr eld-m
23.5 gr AR-Comp
CCI BR primer
L.C brass
Seated to an OAL 2.360-2.365 or BTO 1.820-1.821

Before you all go running hooting and uh hollering yelling that’s over book max by 2 grains. Take your cheap asses and buy a hornady Manual look up 5.56 load data for a 80gr bullet with AR comp..

I guess I needed to add a smiley face?

Ah I'm just ph ucking with you..

Damn, is that a suppressed load?

What is AR Comp? LMAO

Probably should never post my N540 loads...

Suppressed what you talking about? Or you mean compressed?

2776 from a 18 inch barrel. For those still using a hornady manual from 1998 max load of AR comp with a 80gr is 23.2. Most forget alliant data is for a 223 not 5.56/223 Wylde.

Just giving you chit man... Since the title of the thread is "suppressed". Go take a nap...

They didn't have AR comp in 1998... Geez.. You keep doing the testing and keep track of how many rounds down the tube before you blow the BCG out the back end of the stock....

I cleaned it up I was being grumpy lol.. I had a 10 shot group measure 1.5 but 8 of them measured at 1.044. So it’s a pretty good load.

And lose all my fingers

Pharm just puts tape over all the extra holes and calls it a 1/2" group... Might want to try that next time...

Well, as long as you don't lose the middle one. That is the most important one... You'll still be able to wave at people that way..

I use a lot of AR Comp too & my loads are higher that most (early) data for it, so I'm not too concerned until I try a given load.........................you are also seating that bullet out a ways as well & I don't believe it will seat at mag length, even ASC's w/o being into the ogive a little bit. I'm not going to single load anything.

Here are some links to a whole series or various powder tests all done with 77 gr SMK's intended to attempt to dupe MK 262 loads; pretty interesting data & on the powders that I use that he tested, it's pretty close to my results. At least it's a good reality check. Part of about a 10 part series, IIRC.

MM

8208 vs AR Comp

2000-MR vs IMR-4895

H-4895 vs RL-15

Lever vs 2000-MR

BC-L(2) vs TAC

Varget

I run mine out of a modified mag, that allows me to run them from a mag. AMU started it from what I read and folks started doing it themselves. Was an outfit selling them but they wanted $40 plus bucks for something you can do for pennies on the dollar.

Yep I seen all his videos.

Yeah, I've seen the modified mags & they are OK for dinking around on the range & maybe gaming, but I won't use them for anything else.

The ASC's are as long as I'm going to use for any serious use of the guns & any of that type of use won't require the very highest of BC's that you get with the heaviest bullets that you are shooting.

If I feel the need to go that route, then I'll build a Valkyrie to fill that niche.

MM

Yeah, only problem there Gunny you can’t use a Valkyrie for service rifle shoots.. you can use it for AR tactical prone shoots, but if I were going to build another ar tactical it would be in the 243 lbc..

I like that one too................my wants usually exceed my budget though. Besides, I prolly got more than I can get into a shooting rotation now.

MM

Hey John,

Any one other than LBC making the 6mm Grendel barrels? Barrels that shoot, that is....

Dave,

They are the only ones I know of..

Same here as well.. I thought about building a clone to the m110 those are service rifle approved now.

FWIW, and its only my opinion, but in well over 100K rounds of ammo loaded in whatever you want to call it, 223/5.56, we ran a LOT of that stuff at probably 60-62 on pressure and that was verified by Chris F doing a bit of pressure testing with my ammo, I"ve never had an issue. 65 plus probably could get you.

I don't see that ARcomp load being dangerous at all. I'd verify its not temp sensitive if shooting in TX like we did, I've yet to see anything quite as stable as target but as long as cold or heat doesn't smoke the load, I'd say you are fine.

Why you run certain pressures in certain guns is for weak actions. The AR is not weak. Of course if you have a faulty part, not always a cheap part, but some of the cost can involve inspecting or not... then it can be an issue.

That said I've picked up some military brass... no way would I shoot those pressures.

And in many years of shooting many places I"ve seen 2 bolts loose lugs. One military, one civilian. Military I have no clue on. Civ is a friend, shooting warm loads, but had 5 barrels on that bolt already, so I wasn't all that surprised.

I run a bolt for about 3 barrels personally. Good bolts like from WOP are cheap enough, and easy to toss.

rost,

Yes, I generally agree with your comments.

But full NATO mil-spec ammo is running 62K+ if you believe Ramshot (Western Powder) data as they have a separate load data section for 5.56 NATO.

If you made a typo & meant "Varget" instead of "target", I also agree in that it's accurate, but it's slow, & you just cannot get to the velocity levels with several other powders.............check the last video & data that I posted above & you'll see what I mean.

MM

I agree with the varget comment I was getting great accuracy but was it slow. I recently ran into a couple lots of slow rl15. I bought this powder few yrs ago and I lost 80-100 FPS with it over the rl15 I started with. I should pick up a new jug see how it does. But right now arcomp is doing what I need it to do. But man rl15 with a 75gr hornady bthp is very accurate load, but the avg velocity was 2580. This was st the upper end as well 24.8gr. Talking to guys at the shoots they are using 24.0gr of rl15. So it has to be those two lots of powder..

AR Comp is a temp stable, re-formulated version of RL-15 that turned out to be a little faster than RL-15 in burn rate.

MM

David - guessing you meant Black Hole Weaponry / Columbia River Arms? They are the ones making the 243 LBC (and 264 LBC) chambered barrels. I have one of their 24" 243 LBC barrels and am very happy with it, would buy another from them again, but there are a number of different places making 6mm Grendel-based wildcats. Some are a straight necked-down Grendel like the 243 LBC, while others like the 6mm AR Turbo etc are slight variations. You could take a look at 6mmAR.com although some of their load data on the site seems a bit lacking.

And of course the 6mm PPC is almost the same thing; the LBC/Grendel case just has the shoulder pushed .070" farther forward and is mostly designed around no-turn necks and heavy long-range bullets.

AR Comp seems to be pretty stable stuff. It also meters very well.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I guess I should say assumptions towards some of us.. anyhow what do you shoot through your AR15... don't ph ucking say green tip ball ammo either.. you better have 650 or 1050 rolling out some good stuff.

Yes, I meant Varget. In the day with 80s, it was all we had, top of the line. Then we found N540.. Varget went out the door. And there was TAC. Can't help but be as good or better powders by now too. BUT Varget was accurate, one of my best 600 yard 5 shot groups with a hummer Krieger was 1.25 inches with a rough tape measure... that particular barrel was just hot. And the junior who owned it made decent use of it for sure.

Yes, 62 and maybe a bit over on mil spec. If the gun handles that, then it handles any stuff at 62 or so... even if 223 is around 55? max. Stupid things BUT it takes into consideration some variables and safety.

50-100 fps really doesn't matter though if you can buy a higher BC generally speaking, its a better trade off.

I didn't have time to check the links. I have not shot competitively since 2004, and if I started again Id' have to read up on a LOT I suppose.

In my normal todays hunting guns, I can be 200 FPS slower than most folks think is acceptable and I'll do fine this side of 600 or so...which is more than enough since I have not had the need to shoot past 350 lately, and the wife has not had the need to shoot past 270 yards lately either.

90% of what I shoot is factory Federal 75grain TMJ. The rest is a mix of factory Federal 62grain FMJ, factory Speer 75grain Gold Dot, and factory 69grain GMM.

For any long range shooting I do this year I'll be shooting DoubleTap Ammo 69 or 77HPBT.

Long range and 69 will hand you your azz.... but then again long range starts at 600. 69s are ok at 300. Just ok. 69s at 600 can give you a miss before you blink if you don't see a change or a reversal coming.. especially let ups which are HARD for me to see.

The first couple of mid range shoots I did we had a fella shooting service rifle. Representing the national guard, anyhow he was using green tip ammo m855 stuff. His scores showed it, next shoot shows up again with 62gr green tip ammo. I said get some 75gr hornady stuff or 77gr Sierra's factory ammo. He said nope, I want the guard to get it, said ok. 3rd shoot he goes I broke down bought some cbc ammo loaded with the 77gr Sierra. Guess what his scores went up like 30 points.