Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Mausers and Military Rifles 1909 Argentine Question

A fan of this new forum. Cheers to those who helped get it created.

Question for those here:

I picked up a nice 1909 Argentine action a little while ago that had been color case hardened. Would this process have solved any potential "softness" issues (lug setback, etc) that may have existed with this era of Mauser production? It has had some other work done to it - new bolt handle installed, Winchester 70-style safety installed, and the stripper clip guide has been ground away. All in all, a very nice example of this model that has well executed modifications done to it.

The plan was/is to turn it into a 9.3x64 Brenneke.

I'm not aware of any softness issues on the 09 Argentine rifles.
Maybe on the 91's.
Please post a picture so we can drool, I mean appreciate your work in progress.

I have read about softness in some Argie 09s. Obviously it exists. I dont know enough about metallurgy to comment.
On another forum, a barrel maker refused to install a barrel on one because it had not been re heat treated.

Possibly, but that's the first I've heard of that.
Maybe someone will join in and help us out on that one.

IIRC, the 1909s made in Germany by DWM were OK but the ones made under license in Argentina were suspect. Mine is on a DWM action and there are strategic little dimples on the gun and bolt showing it had been checked for hardness, I run a very hot 160 gr. Speer Grand Slam load in that rifle and there have been no problems. If it's a German action there should be a two line inscription on the left side receiver rail.

DEUTSCH WAFFEN-UND
MUNITIONSFABRIKEN BERLIN

Paul B.

Yes, I too have read that the FMAP 09s were soft but I have also read that some (early?) DWM production was on the soft side. Who the hell knows ? Everything on the net is gospel.

I would suspect the Argentinean rifles, not the German ones.
The Germans over engineer everything.
Surely they wouldn't let the hardening issue arise.....

Having worked on dozens of 1909's over the years, these are my findings. The DWM produced actions, while being more nicely machined, tend more often to be soft or exhibit signs of lug setback on the lug seats. The FMAP receivers lack the nice machining of the DWM's but have presented less often with setback issues.

Testing the hardness on those pre-WWI era receivers can be problematic. The test is usually conducted on the flat underside of the receiver behind the recoil lug. A test conducted in this location cannot be relied upon to accurately reflect the hardness of the lug seats however. It was for this reason that I routinely had any 1909 actions I was asked to build upon heat treated (Carburized).

Does this mean that every 1909 is going to exhibit setback? No. But, you never know which will and which won't.

It's about time you showed up, Mike.

There ya have it, guys - from the horse's mouth.

That's what we needed. The voice of experience.
This is why we needed this forum.

So, if you have a rifle with a 1909 action that has already been completed and you don't know if the action has been re-heat treated or not what would be the best and least expensive way to prevent any future issues? I have a very nice rifle that I bought that has a 1909 (German) and wonder if I should be concerned the "soft" issue. Would having the action treated now be prudent and if so who would be a good smith to do it?
rookie

Have it checked out by a gunsmith and take it from there.

+1 but add... By a competent gunsmith.....

Preferably a mausersmith. Anyone can hang a shingle out.

PM jkob here on the Fire. He’s a Mauser smith and has done Mauser and other work for me.

DF

Yes...unfortunately I've been burned several times by so called gunsmiths. Last local gunsmith that I trusted without question passed away a couple of years ago and haven't been able to find a replacement. Seems all anyone around here care to work on are the AR types.
rookie

Been burned myself in my younger years and got an education real fast. Just because one takes a mail order course or likes to tinker on his own firearms does not a gunsmith make.
A mechanic at work took one of those courses and was always bugging guys to let him work on their firearms. Fortunately no one ever took him up on it.

Sporterizing a few 1909's from various makers in years past, I do recall that drilling and tapping the front bridge was not noticeably problematic. Surface hardness and yield strength are two different animals. I don't think there was any surface carburizing like was found on the 1917 Enfields and those godawful Krags. Who knows where these these stories begin and how often repeated without any actual experience. (example, the short neck on the .300 Win Mag is detrimental to accuracy, right?) My personal 1909 is in the original 7.65x53, and I routinely have loaded it to .308 Win pressures for 30 plus years. The original military light ball, 150 gr load achieved 2920 fps (Ludwig Olsen, The Mauser Rifle) with powders of 100 years ago. Would I chamber a 1909 for a 65,000 psi cartridge? no. But I wouldn't blow a lot of money fixing a problem that may not be a problem.

Oh, and by the way...please do your measuring of magazine length before you get too far along. And the few extra thousandths of body diameter can complicate feeding, the gunsmith's worst bugaboo. The Brenneke is perhaps a .1" longer than the 9.3x62, and as you know loaded to about 63,800 psi C.I.P. as opposed to 56,500 for the 9.3x62. I guess I'm saying, the superb 1909 may not be the best choice for your dream cartridge.

Most gunsmiths cannot tell you about the case harden condition of a piece of metal. We have a lot of machine shops and heat treating folks around here that can check them. A color case will help, but I don't know how deep they are treated.