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Pretty disappointed in Hodgdon/IMR. I've sent two requests now asking questions about IMR 7977 and their load data over the past couple of weeks. Unfortunately, both requests have been silent.
Unfortunate for them because if I can't use it, I wont be buying any more powder, it'll just sit on the shelf.
Goofy aka graybird on other forums
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I would go to: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifleAnd type in whatever cartridge you need. Then select ‘any’ for bullet and ‘IMR’ then ‘IMR7977’ for the powder. Now you can go back to the cartridge and it will let you scroll through the available cartridges with a recipe for IMR7977. Yours might be listed, might not. But maybe there’s a case with a similar size, or something else that could be helpful.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Unfortunate for them because if I can't use it, I wont be buying any more powder, it'll just sit on the shelf.
Dammit, I won't buy any either, this is an outrage!
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Yeah, that's exactly the problem ... a 6.5x68 mm isn't listed.
I have some load data for other products of theirs, which I asked if they could give me a % conversions based off of those data. Yet, it's crickets chirping in the background.
Goofy aka graybird on other forums
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Unfortunate for them because if I can't use it, I wont be buying any more powder, it'll just sit on the shelf.
Dammit, I won't buy any either, this is an outrage! Yup, outrage ,,, insert sarcasm now .......
Goofy aka graybird on other forums
"Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning"
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The website lists starting and max loads for 6.5-284 and 6.5-06. I’m not sure the case capacity of the 6.5x68, but would one of those starting charges work?
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The website lists starting and max loads for 6.5-284 and 6.5-06. I’m not sure the case capacity of the 6.5x68, but would one of those starting charges work?
Not exactly, the 6.5x68 has roughly 86 gr H2O while the 6.5-06 or 6.5-284 holds around 66-68 gr H2O. It should be somewhere between the 264 Win Mag and the 26 Nosler, yet I can't find data for either of those cartridges with IMR 7977, but it fits within the burn rates for other powders listed.
Goofy aka graybird on other forums
"Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning"
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Campfire Ranger
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If you can find data for that obscure cartridge in other places, your lament might make sense. Not likely anyone here is going to the expense of having a pressure barrel (where would they even find a reamer?) made and data developed for the perhaps two people in America that have rifles so chambered. Not even the Hornady manual covers that one, and they've got stuff I've not seen elsewhere. Nosler doesn't list 7977 for either of your "bracket" rounds. Perhaps there's a reason. Certainly you didn't buy powder for which you had no data.
Try Norma.
P.S. Hodgdon does list some data for the .26 Nosler and 7977, but only with 100 and 120gr bullets.
Last edited by Pappy348; 06/13/19.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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imgoofy,
Gee, what a problem....
I load for cartridges where there's no published loading data every year, and don't always have time to rely on powder companies getting back to me.
One fairly easy solution for a starting point is QuickLoad, but if you don't want to but the program some Campfire members are very willing to generate some QL data if you give 'em the basic info--which does NOT include filling the case all the way to the mouth with water (as you apparently did) but to the base of a seated bullet, which is a far more accurate way to determine capacity.
The other way, which you tried (though evidently not very hard) is to use adjusted data for a similar cartridge. Hodgdon does include 7977 in their 6.5 Weatherby Magnum data. The 6.5 Weatherby holds about 90 grains of water with a typical bullet seated (just about like the 26 Nosler), so I would reduce their powder charges accordingly for the 6.5x68--after you measure its water capacity with a seated bullet. If you don't know how to do that, I can explain.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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--after you measure its water capacity with a seated bullet. If you don't know how to do that, I can explain. Don't know about goofy, but I've been curious about the least messy method to accomplish this. Is there a link?
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I guess my issue is they mention the close burning rate between IMR 7977 and H1000, yet it isn't a grain for grain charge weight substitute. Ok, fair enough. I have been able to establish data using QuickLoad for similar Hodgdon/IMR powders such as H1000, Retumbo, IMR 7828, etc. Therefore, my simple question was knowing the load data for the previously mentioned powders, can they provide a max load for IMR 7977?
An appropriate answer should be ...
- use a max charge of XXX
- we are not willing to give out that data
- we don't know the answer to your question
But, to not even respond to the query is where I'm most disappointed with them, any answer at this point would be better than nothing.
Goofy aka graybird on other forums
"Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning"
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--after you measure its water capacity with a seated bullet. If you don't know how to do that, I can explain. Don't know about goofy, but I've been curious about the least messy method to accomplish this. Is there a link? I'm all ears John. I'd really like to try this powder in this cartridge. My intention is to use the 127 gr LRX this season. The combination of using a copper bullet along with the intention of using this rifle as my 2019 choice from Nevada antelope in August to Wyoming elk in December and the anticipated temperature swings from the beginning of the season to the end is why I thought this powder might be a good choice. Thanks
Goofy aka graybird on other forums
"Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning"
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Campfire Outfitter
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Pretty disappointed in Hodgdon/IMR. I've sent two requests now asking questions about IMR 7977 and their load data over the past couple of weeks. Unfortunately, both requests have been silent.
. . LMAO on these comments big time. I posted this awhile back about a highly hyped product on this forum so dont feel bad. 6 mos. and 10 emails never answered as to whether or not they still support the product. Gave up.Well they finally answered, kind of. Told me to contact the company president at his personal email which I did. Guess what crickets again.🤣🤣🤣🤣
Swifty
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imgoofy, Without any more details about your potential load and firearm (COAL, H20 capacity, barrel length, twist rate, etc) I ran a quick QL for that bullet, cartridge, and powder... and was really surprised. I'm not sure if the QL powder profile for IMR 7977 is off or if this is the reason why you don't see it listed for this cartridge. But it shows IMR 7977 being far down the list for optimal powders for this application. At max pressure it generates less velocity than IMR 4320 or IMR 4451 Enduron! If QL is to be believed, for some reason IMR 7977 is not at all optimal in the 6.5x68mm. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK.
Cartridge : 6.5 x 68
Bullet : .264, 127, Barnes 'LRX'BT 30228
Useable Case Capaci: 77.110 grain H2O = 5.007 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.405 inch = 86.49 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63000 psi, or 434 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
26 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 60%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570 100.5 75.3 4.88 3218 96.8 63000 19155 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-33 102.2 78.8 5.11 3202 97.2 63000 18894 1.128 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo 104.2 74.5 4.83 3199 100.0 63000 17021 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H870 106.6 78.2 5.07 3195 98.4 63000 18519 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 217 106.3 74.4 4.82 3190 100.0 63000 17520 1.139 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-50 106.5 81.9 5.31 3189 96.6 63000 19210 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 92.4 67.1 4.35 3166 99.1 63000 17392 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 96.7 66.8 4.33 3162 99.5 63000 16919 1.107 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 91.4 66.8 4.33 3162 99.5 63000 16919 1.107 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 99.7 70.9 4.59 3161 99.7 63000 17330 1.133 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-26 89.0 68.0 4.41 3161 100.0 63000 16476 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 90.5 67.1 4.35 3157 100.0 63000 16737 1.127 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 92.6 70.0 4.54 3156 98.3 63000 17551 1.127 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 97.6 69.0 4.47 3154 100.0 63000 16108 1.121 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000 101.4 71.3 4.62 3153 99.7 63000 16565 1.103 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 92.7 66.6 4.32 3140 99.9 63000 16635 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 95.2 66.9 4.34 3139 99.8 63000 16659 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 24N41 103.7 78.5 5.09 3128 91.7 63000 17484 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon 50BMG 109.1 78.7 5.10 3118 87.7 63000 17740 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 92.5 71.6 4.64 3117 100.0 63000 15930 1.125 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon US 869 108.7 82.3 5.33 3112 91.7 63000 17485 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 90.4 64.3 4.16 3111 99.8 63000 15955 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 81.5 61.2 3.97 3101 100.0 63000 15442 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 81.5 61.2 3.97 3101 100.0 63000 15442 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 81.3 60.6 3.93 3098 100.0 63000 14850 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC 91.8 66.0 4.28 3096 99.0 63000 15923 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 95.5 66.0 4.28 3096 99.0 63000 15923 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 8700 110.0 81.6 5.29 3095 95.9 59985 17242 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 86.0 63.2 4.09 3095 99.8 63000 15631 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 86.2 63.2 4.10 3095 100.0 63000 15295 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23 94.5 65.7 4.26 3089 100.0 63000 14926 1.134 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16 87.1 60.3 3.91 3084 100.0 63000 14718 1.127 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 20N29 110.0 84.1 5.45 3084 93.5 60310 17576 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N170 104.2 73.3 4.75 3078 95.6 63000 16494 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 85.8 60.3 3.91 3072 100.0 63000 14686 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 83.4 60.6 3.93 3072 100.0 63000 14830 1.125 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron 93.4 64.6 4.19 3069 99.2 63000 15450 1.104 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 89.5 67.0 4.34 3067 99.8 63000 15226 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 84.6 60.2 3.90 3062 100.0 63000 14635 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 88.7 61.7 4.00 3060 100.0 63000 14784 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 87.1 61.6 3.99 3059 100.0 63000 14748 1.107 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 95.4 67.1 4.35 3058 100.0 63000 14934 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 96.0 65.4 4.24 3057 99.4 63000 15113 1.110 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 89.9 61.2 3.97 3053 100.0 63000 14386 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4451 Enduron 83.8 58.9 3.82 3050 100.0 63000 14505 1.099 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 77.7 55.2 3.58 3047 100.0 63000 14115 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game 77.8 58.9 3.82 3047 100.0 63000 14064 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 82.1 59.2 3.83 3046 100.0 63000 14628 1.113 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100 92.9 66.0 4.28 3045 100.0 63000 14690 1.150 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 78.5 55.8 3.62 3045 100.0 63000 14095 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 79.8 58.0 3.76 3043 100.0 63000 14276 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223 73.4 58.2 3.77 3043 100.0 63000 14010 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B 78.9 56.1 3.63 3037 100.0 63000 13968 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 75.5 57.9 3.75 3033 100.0 63000 14089 1.107 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4166 Enduron 83.5 56.9 3.68 3033 100.0 63000 14152 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 80.5 56.3 3.65 3031 100.0 63000 13654 1.104 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 74.8 56.8 3.68 3028 100.0 63000 13788 1.113 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 88.0 60.5 3.92 3027 100.0 63000 13635 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7977 Enduron 98.1 69.0 4.47 3027 93.9 63000 15271 1.104 ! Near Maximum ! <===============================
Hodgdon H4895 76.1 54.1 3.50 3027 100.0 63000 13715 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 81.8 56.2 3.64 3022 100.0 63000 13685 1.103 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 74.0 57.4 3.72 3019 100.0 63000 13722 1.127 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 79.6 57.2 3.71 3016 100.0 63000 13705 1.138 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 82.1 55.1 3.57 3014 100.0 63000 13472 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 71.9 55.0 3.56 3012 100.0 63000 13346 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700 82.5 61.2 3.96 3005 100.0 63000 13921 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 73.9 52.8 3.42 3002 100.0 63000 13230 1.110 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator 73.8 56.0 3.63 2996 100.0 63000 13278 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 75.6 53.7 3.48 2996 100.0 63000 13122 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 77.6 53.9 3.50 2988 100.0 63000 13181 1.125 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 73.7 55.2 3.58 2979 100.0 63000 12964 1.138 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 71.5 55.0 3.57 2978 100.0 63000 12940 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 77.4 51.4 3.33 2975 100.0 63000 12716 1.127 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 86.7 58.1 3.77 2971 100.0 63000 12901 1.126 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 69.4 53.8 3.49 2970 100.0 63000 12766 1.116 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 76.7 53.7 3.48 2966 100.0 63000 12735 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 71.3 54.5 3.53 2964 100.0 63000 12758 1.134 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 78.8 56.6 3.67 2964 100.0 63000 12865 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 78.7 54.7 3.55 2963 100.0 63000 12872 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 75.7 53.0 3.43 2963 100.0 63000 12622 1.105 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 73.5 50.7 3.29 2960 100.0 63000 12476 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 69.2 49.9 3.24 2954 100.0 63000 12379 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 78.7 54.8 3.55 2940 100.0 63000 12309 1.121 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 74.0 51.4 3.33 2933 100.0 63000 12411 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 73.8 53.5 3.47 2932 100.0 63000 12185 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135 83.0 53.5 3.46 2921 100.0 63000 12007 1.134 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 70.9 47.4 3.07 2915 100.0 63000 11680 1.090 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant AR-Comp 73.5 50.5 3.28 2910 100.0 63000 11832 1.134 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 63.8 47.3 3.07 2908 100.0 63000 11710 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x 71.7 48.1 3.12 2906 100.0 63000 11825 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 73.7 50.1 3.25 2897 100.0 63000 11707 1.131 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 62.5 42.5 2.76 2895 100.0 63000 11663 1.106 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133 79.2 51.5 3.34 2886 100.0 63000 11448 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 68.6 47.7 3.09 2880 100.0 63000 11543 1.136 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 72.4 46.1 2.99 2877 100.0 63000 11245 1.099 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 74.9 49.8 3.23 2871 100.0 63000 11333 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-7 68.5 47.1 3.05 2869 100.0 63000 11311 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 66.7 43.4 2.81 2830 100.0 63000 10707 1.095 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 66.6 43.3 2.81 2826 100.0 63000 10692 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 67.2 44.4 2.87 2804 100.0 63000 10514 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 70.6 45.8 2.97 2798 100.0 63000 10452 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N110 64.4 38.8 2.52 2707 100.0 63000 9555 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant BLUE DOT 61.5 35.6 2.31 2665 100.0 63000 9288 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant HERCO 68.8 30.7 1.99 2517 100.0 63000 8117 1.126 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant UNIQUE 63.7 29.2 1.89 2505 100.0 63000 8010 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N350 61.0 31.6 2.05 2495 100.0 63000 7787 1.102 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate Nitro 100 73.2 27.1 1.76 2459 100.0 63000 7701 1.116 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Universal 63.8 29.2 1.89 2458 100.0 63000 7637 1.113 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N340 63.0 29.7 1.92 2455 100.0 63000 7472 1.103 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant GREEN DOT 72.8 28.9 1.87 2441 100.0 63000 7520 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RED DOT 78.6 27.8 1.80 2440 100.0 63000 7545 1.089 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate Solo 1000 73.8 29.1 1.88 2429 100.0 63000 7405 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N330 62.4 28.9 1.87 2426 100.0 63000 7276 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate Solo 1250 68.8 29.2 1.89 2425 100.0 63000 7252 1.096 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N320 67.0 27.9 1.81 2405 100.0 63000 7118 1.096 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Clays 83.0 28.2 1.83 2402 100.0 63000 7209 1.081 ! Near Maximum !
Norma R1 82.8 29.8 1.93 2398 100.0 63000 7181 1.094 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N310 65.2 26.9 1.75 2386 100.0 63000 6995 1.084 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star 97.2 34.5 2.23 2313 100.0 63000 6389 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
IMR TrailBoss 110.0 26.3 1.71 2010 100.0 42412 5066 1.328
For powders touted to be more temperature resistant Retumbo, Reloder 26, and H1000 would seem to be good bets. Some also claim to have had good experience with IMR 7828 in this regard too.
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
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Posts: 60,065
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,065 |
imgoofy,
The easiest way to accurately measure water capacity is with a fired case, for two reasons. They not only more accurately reflect the capacity of that chamber, but the expanded neck allows a bullet to slide easily inside--and allow excess water to escape. (If a bullet won't slide easily into a fired case's neck, then the neck is too thick for that chamber, and needs to be inside-reamed or outside-turned.)
Fill the case with water to the mouth, then stand it up on a flat surface and push a bullet into the mouth until it's at the appropriate overall length. (I often use a ruler marked with the loaded length, but also often use a cannelured bullet seated to the cannelure.) After the bullet pushes out the excess water, I pull out the bullet and wipe any droplets on it into the case mouth, then also use a paper towel wipe any water from the outside of the case. Unless the case is turned upside-down, surface tension will keep the water inside, allowing it to be weighed.
I ran some comparative tests in my NULA .257 Weatherby Magnum with IMR7977 and H1000 when the first Enduron powders appeared. In that rifle, with those lots of powder, velocities were within 20-25 fps of each other with the same bullets and powder charges.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,275
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,275 |
Mule Deer what grain bullet and velocities did you get from your 257 Weatherby Mag. IMR7977 AND H1000 ?thank you .Pete53
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Posts: 60,065
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,065 |
Around 3550 fps with 100's (24-inch barrel) and 3250-3300 with 115-120's.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,275
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 8,275 |
thank you Mule Deer , i use Reloader 22 for hunting in the fall when temps are under 50 degrees " 26 inch and 27 inch barrels "
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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"If you can find data for that obscure cartridge in other places..." I've found the best resource is generally the brain of John Barsness.
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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"If you can find data for that obscure cartridge in other places..." I've found the best resource is generally the brain of John Barsness. Agreed, but he's gonna burn out at some point. He's nearly as old as I am!
What fresh Hell is this?
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