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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,881 |
So you guys actually believe that a 45 ACP with any bullet is more than 20% more lethal than a 9mm with any bullet? Where do you come up with this?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,283
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,283 |
It's never been difficult to cypher,who shoots...and who don't. Congratulations?!?
Hint................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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".….Didn't that Muslim yelling alah akbar at fort hood kill dead a bunch of people with a piss ant FN 5.7?."
You just made the argument we are all talking about. FN shooting 40gr VMax around 1800 fps. Does a lot more damage than a 22LR shooting 40gr HP at 1200 fps.
And well below 2000 fps. Velocity matters, even under 2K fps. you have me confused, I am arguing that velocity is as important as bullet size and mass. I argued that the 5.7 with its 40 grain bullet at 1800 was as or more lethal than a 9mm ir 45ACP. I never have mentioned a 22 LR in this discussion that I recollect. Does anyone want to argue that a 55 grain 5.56 at 2600 FPS is less lethal than a 240 grain 44 magnum at 1300FPS applied into the chest cavity? Secondly that handguns of all common calibers are all about the same regards lethality in self defense shootings with more than 50% of people being shot surviving single hits to the chest. I know a man that I hunt with that survived 4 shots with a 357 magnum, the shooter shot low 3 times into his pelvis and stomach and one blew his thumb off, one missed and he used the last one on himself. Now replace that with a 223, 30-06, or 12 gunge with buckshot and the odds are slim to none. Finally take something like a glock 34 with 124 grain HP ammunition, someone will shoot you two to three times with that while many are recovering from a single recoil from a 1911 45ACP. Just sayin is all.
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,935
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 1,935 |
Example a Lehigh monometal flat point non expanding bullet same caliber same weight one fired at 950 FPS the other fired at 1400 FPS the faster bullet will produce more damage.
If that is your experience, I don't doubt you one bit. My question was a bit different: Two .44 caliber bullets, 250 grain and 300 grain, same nose shape, equal meplat diameters, both hard cast and do not expand. Load each to however "hot" you are comfortable with, but each loaded as hot as the other. (Maybe different charge weights, maybe different powders, but each load is equal as far as how hard you are "leaning on the gun." This probably means equal peak chamber pressure.) The lighter bullet will be faster, correct? Assume that on the animal in question, and the angle of the shot, both bullets exit. So depth of penetration is "total." In this case, you will pick the lighter, faster bullet, because it will do more damage, correct? But on a bigger animal, or a situation where you may have to take a poor angle shot, you might choose the heavier, slower bullet to ensure sufficient penetration, correct? If bullet construction is equal the faster bullet will produce more damage through lung and or heart without a doubt. With mono metal flat point bullets I’m not sure that weight is as important as it is with lead type bullets. Buffalo Bore has a Dangerous Game Line of revolver bullets using the Leigh mono metal in r4 mag they load a 265 grain at a claimed 1425 FPS. Grizzly Ammo loads at 300 grain Punch Bullet at 1200 assuming equal meplats I would not be surprised if penetration was a wash.
I don't understand exactly what you mean by the part highlighted in red, or why you believe it to be true. Does it have to do with bullet hardness? Concerning the part in blue: So if you believe penetration is a wash, then you would pick the 265 at 1425 fps, because it should do the most damage, correct?
Clinging to guns & religion since 1959
Keyboards make people braver than alcohol
Election Integrity is more important than Election Convenience
Washington Post: "Democracy Dies in Darkness" More correct: "Killing Democracy Faster Than Darkness"
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,881
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,881 |
I don’t believe that bullet weight for a mono Metal flat point is as important as for a lead based bullet, because lighter mono metal flat point bullet often out penetrate heavier lead based bullet or penetrate the same in test in both rifles and revolvers. Yes the monometal is harder, deforms Less and penetrates better than lead based bullets.
If penetration is adequate more damage is achieved by more velocity.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,881
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,881 |
".….Didn't that Muslim yelling alah akbar at fort hood kill dead a bunch of people with a piss ant FN 5.7?."
You just made the argument we are all talking about. FN shooting 40gr VMax around 1800 fps. Does a lot more damage than a 22LR shooting 40gr HP at 1200 fps.
And well below 2000 fps. Velocity matters, even under 2K fps. you have me confused, I am arguing that velocity is as important as bullet size and mass. I argued that the 5.7 with its 40 grain bullet at 1800 was as or more lethal than a 9mm ir 45ACP. I never have mentioned a 22 LR in this discussion that I recollect. Does anyone want to argue that a 55 grain 5.56 at 2600 FPS is less lethal than a 240 grain 44 magnum at 1300FPS applied into the chest cavity? Secondly that handguns of all common calibers are all about the same regards lethality in self defense shootings with more than 50% of people being shot surviving single hits to the chest. I know a man that I hunt with that survived 4 shots with a 357 magnum, the shooter shot low 3 times into his pelvis and stomach and one blew his thumb off, one missed and he used the last one on himself. Now replace that with a 223, 30-06, or 12 gunge with buckshot and the odds are slim to none. Finally take something like a glock 34 with 124 grain HP ammunition, someone will shoot you two to three times with that while many are recovering from a single recoil from a 1911 45ACP. Just sayin is all. I played ball with a man that survived a point blank shot with a 16 ghage shotgun into his abdomen, people survive a lot of horrific injuries, that doesn’t change the fact that more velocity in handguns increase damage. Stop including rifles.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 207
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Make that hit center chest and the survival chances get slim but then again, we get into load and bullet which is a whole other pandoras box
Actually doing something usually changes a persons previously worthless opinion
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,881
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,881 |
Make that hit center chest and the survival chances get slim but then again, we get into load and bullet which is a whole other pandoras box The load was a duck load, the shot gun discharged as he was attempting to get out of the boat and into a duck blind.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Posts: 10,245
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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It seems all Jimmy's argument (in several threads) really is about, is his inability to shoot a 45. I don't think anyone is going to change his mind.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 385
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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A 310 Keith from my sixgun at almost 1200 pokes a hole through a prairie dog. The same exact load from my rifle does 1550 and will cut a p dog in half. Both loads will kill deer and antelope quite well
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,881
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,881 |
A 310 Keith from my sixgun at almost 1200 pokes a hole through a prairie dog. The same exact load from my rifle does 1550 and will cut a p dog in half. Both loads will kill deer and antelope quite well You understand the intent of the thread.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,033
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,033 |
".….Didn't that Muslim yelling alah akbar at fort hood kill dead a bunch of people with a piss ant FN 5.7?."
You just made the argument we are all talking about. FN shooting 40gr VMax around 1800 fps. Does a lot more damage than a 22LR shooting 40gr HP at 1200 fps.
And well below 2000 fps. Velocity matters, even under 2K fps. you have me confused, I am arguing that velocity is as important as bullet size and mass. I argued that the 5.7 with its 40 grain bullet at 1800 was as or more lethal than a 9mm ir 45ACP. I never have mentioned a 22 LR in this discussion that I recollect. Does anyone want to argue that a 55 grain 5.56 at 2600 FPS is less lethal than a 240 grain 44 magnum at 1300FPS applied into the chest cavity? Secondly that handguns of all common calibers are all about the same regards lethality in self defense shootings with more than 50% of people being shot surviving single hits to the chest. I know a man that I hunt with that survived 4 shots with a 357 magnum, the shooter shot low 3 times into his pelvis and stomach and one blew his thumb off, one missed and he used the last one on himself. Now replace that with a 223, 30-06, or 12 gunge with buckshot and the odds are slim to none. Finally take something like a glock 34 with 124 grain HP ammunition, someone will shoot you two to three times with that while many are recovering from a single recoil from a 1911 45ACP. Just sayin is all. It's all good, I was relating your comments to the question posed in the OP. At this point the conversation is just going in circles. I'm out.
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300 |
It seems all Jimmy's argument (in several threads) really is about, is his inability to shoot a 45. I don't think anyone is going to change his mind. sadly even at 15 yards I fail to even hit the target with my G21. I am delighted your Mensa level intelligence ferreted this fact out!
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Joined: May 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 10,245 |
It seems all Jimmy's argument (in several threads) really is about, is his inability to shoot a 45. I don't think anyone is going to change his mind. sadly even at 15 yards I fail to even hit the target with my G21. I am delighted your Mensa level intelligence ferreted this fact out! I get a laugh every time someone posts a target photo in a forum to make some pissing point. As if that is evidence of anything. Your words say much more than your target. I can post a 15 yd target that looks better than yours, but it doesn't prove anything. You, OTOH, seem to have a lot to say about the. 45 acp having no reason to live.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300 |
I myself get aggravated when one of the fires Mensa members picks a argument and then backs it up with moronic assumptions along with a good dose of red herring. I never ran the 45 ACP down, I simply pointed out that it’s not significantly better as a SD cartridge than a 9mm. Sorry you got your tit in the wringer over me posting an actual target, but again you seem to have some disdain for actual facts. Why I bet if you were in charge you would correct all these lies and falsehoods and the 45ACP would be adopted in every military and all police departments! Anyway more facts. I own two 45ACP pistols both of which I like and shoot reasonably well. I carry and practice with one of my two P365’s and I am more proficient with those as I shoot them a lot more. However as I hope that you might be able to tell from the target, I do own and can hit with a M21 and a 45 shield. Please forgive me if I offended you or your people.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,245 |
I myself get aggravated when one of the fires Mensa members picks a argument and then backs it up with moronic assumptions along with a good dose of red herring. I never ran the 45 ACP down, I simply pointed out that it’s not significantly better as a SD cartridge than a 9mm. Sorry you got your tit in the wringer over me posting an actual target, but again you seem to have some disdain for actual facts. Why I bet if you were in charge you would correct all these lies and falsehoods and the 45ACP would be adopted in every military and all police departments! Anyway more facts. I own two 45ACP pistols both of which I like and shoot reasonably well. I carry and practice with one of my two P365’s and I am more proficient with those as I shoot them a lot more. However as I hope that you might be able to tell from the target, I do own and can hit with a M21 and a 45 shield. Please forgive me if I offended you or your people. Jimmyp, you haven't offended me a bit. I rather find you mildly amusing. You have spent a good deal of time here belaboring this issue based on what? Statistical reports? You have pestered several others here with this obsession over what is debunked by those who shoot living things. And then, when someone makes an observation based on your recent contributions here, you imply some sort of victim status and lash out. (My tit in a wringer over your pointless target? Almost as hilarious as the target itself.) It's not a good look on you, but it does have humor value. I don't have a dog in this current caliber fight, but admit to adding to my amusement by commenting on your by now absurd argument, and then your silly target "proof" (of what, no one can be sure). And now your butt-hurt response is predictable at this point. Eh...whatever. Sorry for upsetting ya.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300 |
FreeMe, I like your argument style, it cleverly personally attacks me in the nicest way possible. My belaboring the 9mm,40sw,45acp issue has me in equal company with you and many others here who don’t believe the world is round and don’t believe most all CCW pistol rounds are about the same. I belabor the point but those who think opposite of me do not belabor the point! Interesting take! It’s almost progressive like in its structure. My side is right so we can do as we please, your side is wrong so anything you say or do is wrong.
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Joined: May 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 10,245 |
FreeMe, I like your argument style, it cleverly personally attacks me in the nicest way possible. My belaboring the 9mm,40sw,45acp issue has me in equal company with you.... No it doesn't. I'm not belaboring either side of the argument. But you left yourself open for attack, and I am trying to be kind of nice about it. ....and many others here who don’t believe the world is round and don’t believe most all CCW pistol rounds are about the same... Equating flat-earthers with those who aren't buying what is debatable is pretty lame. Yeah, both sides are beating this horse to pieces - but one side relies heavily on statistics, and the other relies heavily on personal accounts of dead animals. Having seen some pretty questionable things inferred from statistics (bear spray superiority, for instance), I'll run with the dead animal crowd (of which I am just a small part), thank you.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
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We can agree to disagree. The dead animal crowd has great credibility however they are not using typical carry gun cartridges. Flat nosed, 1500 FPS 45 caliber 300 grain bullets will shoot thru a lot of meat, and they have little in common with 230 grain 45 caliber hollow points at 950 FPS. If they want to extrapolate from a 454 Casul to a 45ACP that is fine, but no major agency, military, etc etc has stuck with the 45ACP and "on average" there is very little difference between a 9mm and a 45ACP in a self defense situation.
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