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Originally Posted by 79S
My 75gr eld-m load likes 23.5 gr of AR-comp and CCI-BR primers. My 77 Sierra OTM load likes 26.2gr leverevolution and cci450. My 77 noslers otm with 26.0gr of leverevolution like WSR primers. RL 15 powder likes them all for the most part cci 400 etc. My 75gr hornady bthp likes AR-comp and remington 7 1/2. My 73gr hornady eld-m liked 23.5gr of AR-comp liked cci 450 and chi 400's My 75gr hornady otm load with 24.5gr of variety liked cci 400's.


You are fu cking around with too many damn loads. Try settling on 1 and super fine tune the sob.. You'll probably find your scores go up as well...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
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Also take a look at the 68gr hornady otm. I know guys using lit to 600yds. Not the ideal bullet for that, but they are doing it. Great bullet for shooting out to 300yds. Also 24.5gr of tac, wsr, and the 70gr RDF seated to 2.250 shoots decent. I'm going to revisit that one when I get more 70 gr rdf and try a different primer.


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

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Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by 79S
My 75gr eld-m load likes 23.5 gr of AR-comp and CCI-BR primers. My 77 Sierra OTM load likes 26.2gr leverevolution and cci450. My 77 noslers otm with 26.0gr of leverevolution like WSR primers. RL 15 powder likes them all for the most part cci 400 etc. My 75gr hornady bthp likes AR-comp and remington 7 1/2. My 73gr hornady eld-m liked 23.5gr of AR-comp liked cci 450 and chi 400's My 75gr hornady otm load with 24.5gr of variety liked cci 400's.


You are fu cking around with too many damn loads. Try settling on 1 and super fine tune the sob.. You'll probably find your scores go up as well...


Calm the ph uck down and go eat a ph ucking snicker bar.. I have 3 AR's. one likes 77 Sierra's and one likes 75gr eld-m.. get the full story before you go full retard.. the one that likes 77 Sierra's shoots 88's as well... after this past Saturday and seeing what 3-4 mph wind does with 77sierras at 600 yards I'm jumping up to 88's.. the 77 nosler I used in my service rifle set up and used that for across the course.. the one AR will stick with 75gr ELD-M, for slow fire and 77 Sierra's. The other AR will stick with 88's for slow fire and probably 77 nosler rdf. What you are failing to understand most use two different loads when shooting across the course.

Last edited by 79S; 06/20/19.

Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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I'm about out of popcorn, so I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents worth...

I think I've gone full circle over the years. Who the hell neck turns lapua cases, weighs primers, throws powder out of a Prometheus and produces ammo with less than 2 thou TIR to shoot out of an autoloading M14 at 600 yards? ...that was me. Emphasis on "was". I have a friend named Konrad Powers and we independently have ended up in sorta the same place. Sorta because he wins a lot more [bleep] than me. But I'm pretty sure our rifles shoot about the same because they're built by the same guy who's also our friend. Here's Konrad's thoughts on loading and shooting for Highpower Rifle Competition since he says it better than I could with much more credibility because of his aforementioned habit of winning.
http://www.sw-hearing.com/konrad/thoughts/load_development.html

It's a wonder I've won anything shooting 168 SMK's, 68 Hornady's and 80gr Sierra's. Shhh...don't tell anybody, but I've won a few things at 600 yards with 77gr SMK's...but you didn't hear it from me because rumor has it that they fall out of the sky at 599 yards.

I've decided that my best "bang" for my buck (pardon the pun) is to focus on executing the best shots that I can in every condition that I will shoot in.

Last edited by ChrisF; 06/20/19.
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Originally Posted by ChrisF
I'm about out of popcorn, so I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents worth...

I think I've gone full circle over the years. Who the hell neck turns lapua cases, weighs primers, throws powder out of a Prometheus and produces ammo with less than 2 thou TIR to shoot out of an autoloading M14 at 600 yards? ...that was me. Emphasis on "was". I have a friend named Konrad Powers and we independently have ended up in sorta the same place. Sorta because he wins a lot more [bleep] than me. But I'm pretty sure our rifles shoot about the same because they're built by the same guy who's also our friend. Here's Konrad's thoughts on loading and shooting for Highpower Rifle Competition since he says it better than I could with much more credibility because of his aforementioned habit of winning.
http://www.sw-hearing.com/konrad/thoughts/load_development.html

It's a wonder I've won anything shooting 168 SMK's, 68 Hornady's and 80gr Sierra's. Shhh...don't tell anybody, but I've won a few things at 600 yards with 77gr SMK's...but you didn't hear it from me because rumor has it that they fall out of the sky at 599 yards.

I've decided that my best "bang" for my buck (pardon the pun) is to focus on executing the best shots that I can in every condition that I will shoot in.


Very interesting read and noptel trainer pretty damn cool! Far as the 77 Sierra's our 2nd match a 600yds I shot my best score, since I started this a 196. the 3rd match at 600 yds the wind picked once I got my windage figured out I was gtg. But ended up with a 184, the fella next to me was shooting Sierra 80's and was doing very well with them. So I figured I jump up-to the 88's they shoot very well. Your friend brought up a great point with glasses and I need to get some shooting glasses. I'm in my 40's and unfortunately I have bifocals. I need to get something figured out with these damn glasses.

Last edited by 79S; 06/20/19.

Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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I think I've cracked the code on Konrad's who's-who on the Noptel, but he's still not saying. We use a SCATT extensively, and you can learn some good stuff if you apply it correctly. I saw some scores from Elmendorf...you must have some howlin winds if Fleishhacker barely broke 180 at the 6.

FWIW, I had my ass handed to me by a WM (Woman Marine) shooting her personal AR and a box of storebought 69's. She showed me what she was shooting and asked me if I thought they'd do okay at 600. I didn't have the heart to tell her she should be shooting 80's. I had to hide my score card after she came off the line and showed me hers. 198 and a bunch...and our 600 yard line is not easy. Turns out she had just beaten Watson at Perry for the Womans Service Rifle title earlier that month. Ringer! She was probably just toying with me.

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Originally Posted by ChrisF
I think I've cracked the code on Konrad's who's-who on the Noptel, but he's still not saying. We use a SCATT extensively, and you can learn some good stuff if you apply it correctly. I saw some scores from Elmendorf...you must have some howlin winds if Fleishhacker barely broke 180 at the 6.

FWIW, I had my ass handed to me by a WM (Woman Marine) shooting her personal AR and a box of storebought 69's. She showed me what she was shooting and asked me if I thought they'd do okay at 600. I didn't have the heart to tell her she should be shooting 80's. I had to hide my score card after she came off the line and showed me hers. 198 and a bunch...and our 600 yard line is not easy. Turns out she had just beaten Watson at Perry for the Womans Service Rifle title earlier that month. Ringer! She was probably just toying with me.



The biggest complaint I heard with our range is the sun and the way it comes over the mtns from i was told leads to bad light. I wasn't there for the Saturday shoot I was out halibut fishing. But Sunday I did the EIC match and nice weather. Ron was there giving me advice and to couple other newbies as well.. My rapid fire sitting I thought I was in firefight lol. Ron said you shot 10 rds way to fast lol. He said you shot your 8 round magazine when other shooters were starting to transition to there 8rd magazine. Will add the wind there is weird one range flag won't be doing anything but the other one will be flapping in the wind so makes it hard to read.

Last edited by 79S; 06/20/19.

Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Originally Posted by ChrisF


FWIW, I had my ass handed to me by a WM (Woman Marine) shooting her personal AR and a box of storebought 69's. She showed me what she was shooting and asked me if I thought they'd do okay at 600. I didn't have the heart to tell her she should be shooting 80's. I had to hide my score card after she came off the line and showed me hers. 198 and a bunch...and our 600 yard line is not easy. Turns out she had just beaten Watson at Perry for the Womans Service Rifle title earlier that month. Ringer! She was probably just toying with me.



Yeah, probably....................TFF.

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Originally Posted by ChrisF
I think I've cracked the code on Konrad's who's-who on the Noptel, but he's still not saying. We use a SCATT extensively, and you can learn some good stuff if you apply it correctly. I saw some scores from Elmendorf...you must have some howlin winds if Fleishhacker barely broke 180 at the 6.

FWIW, I had my ass handed to me by a WM (Woman Marine) shooting her personal AR and a box of storebought 69's. She showed me what she was shooting and asked me if I thought they'd do okay at 600. I didn't have the heart to tell her she should be shooting 80's. I had to hide my score card after she came off the line and showed me hers. 198 and a bunch...and our 600 yard line is not easy. Turns out she had just beaten Watson at Perry for the Womans Service Rifle title earlier that month. Ringer! She was probably just toying with me.



Thats hilarious, but it does happen with women shooters. I learned my lesson a time or 2..


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Thanks everyone for the help!! Sure appreciate it! Looks like I need to learn a new way of testing!


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I'm going out on the limb again and I"ll say it one last time. Primers can, and can not, make HUGE differences. Hence the issue of do a bit of research before starting a ladder test.

And really I only do one ladder test. Down and dirty and simple but you have to make perfect shots so you have no induced fliers.

Then you can pick and shoot some 3-5 shot groups while playing and eventually get to 10 shot groups.

Then you can take the best you have and run all the primers again just to see. I 've seen primers cut groups in half and more than double group size.

Then you can tweak seating depth, neck tension etc..

Chris is right but he is off on a different direction about shooting the best shots. Thats after the load is done. And I'm no longer as anal about the very best accuracy, but I feel I get more than acceptable by a ladder and a few multi shot test groups in the sweet spot etc... and then I'm good to start match shooting. But shooting part is different than load part. To be honest just breaking the best shots you can, has a LOT more to do with mental on top of it too.

RE different loads for 79S, he is shooting matches all the time. It never hurts to play with loads while doing that, especially local matches, not getting ready for Perry etc..

RE light, I was not aware that light had that much to do with optics groups, but then I've rarely shot optics in matches.. with irons it can create lots of issues though. both horizontal and vertical. and if its changing on top of it...


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Thanks Roast! I've read and mostly understand the links you provided. Good stuff, kinda like an OCW method posted years back by Dan somebody. Also got more Varget ordered. Getting a little excited about all this and the advice given by the folks in this thread! It's been a long time since I've been able to shoot again and I'm liking where its going! Thanks so much!!


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How about a 10-shot group at 300 yards shot this past Tuesday. Rifle is an Accuracy International AXMC chambered in 6.5x47mm Lapua. I'm shooting a handload consisting of a 130gr Berger VLD .005" off the lands, new Lapua brass, 38.0gr of Varget and Federal GM205M primers. Velocity is 2,825 fps +/- 5 fps which would result in about 1/8" vertical dispersion at 300 yards so I'm confident that I ruined the group in the vertical. I ordered a Protektor 18F pillow bag for the rear of the stock for the next attempt.

[Linked Image]


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that vertical might not be you...

Folks that believe a chrono over paper results tend to have tough lives sometimes.. took me a while to figure that out.

But paper tells the tale. Chrono just gets you excited for nothing some times.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Originally Posted by rost495
that vertical might not be you...

Folks that believe a chrono over paper results tend to have tough lives sometimes.. took me a while to figure that out.

But paper tells the tale. Chrono just gets you excited for nothing some times.


rost, don't let the precision loader types hear you say that... I might also add, none of those guys have submitted their targets for this challenge. They know who I'm talking about. Generally they are yapping about how their Tikka's shoot 1/2 moa groups on average too... wink


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Generally they are yapping about how their Tikka's shoot 1/2 moa groups on average too... wink


It's kinda enlightening when those 3 shot, 0.5 MOA groups seem to grow when 10 shots are required isn't it?

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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Generally they are yapping about how their Tikka's shoot 1/2 moa groups on average too... wink


It's kinda enlightening when those 3 shot, 0.5 MOA groups seem to grow when 10 shots are required isn't it?

MM


It's an eye opener.... but I think we have managed to quiet some of them down a bit.... I know we argue amongst ourselves every once in a while, but I have a lot of respect for the guys that have participated in this thread. I still plan on submitting new groups from new rifles. Seems I'm always buying something new these days. Last weekend I ended up buying a M&P 10 performance center that I will post results of in the black rifle challenge and an oldschool Savage predator (identical to my predator .223 rem) 22-250..... I shot that rifle the other day and it looks damn promising... Not bad for a $289.00 rifle....


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Generally they are yapping about how their Tikka's shoot 1/2 moa groups on average too... wink


It's kinda enlightening when those 3 shot, 0.5 MOA groups seem to grow when 10 shots are required isn't it?

MM


I think anyone can get lucky and shoot a miraculous 3 shot group from time to time:
[Linked Image]


hell even a good 1/2 moa 5 shot group is doable when everything is good. I get a crack out of the Tikka threads where some poor guy posts a 1 1/4 to 1 1/2" 10 shot group and all the Tikka boys pile on saying yeah, something is wrong, you should be doing better. My azz, even Formid has stated that he shoots around 1.5 moa 10 shot groups on average with his. The superlite rifles are great and they are accurate, but those boys that think they can shoot sub moa all day long with their lightweight tikkas need to shut up or put up. Surprisingly, they keep yapping and don't put up much of anything. I believe Hairing8 and I are the only ones that have entered Tikkas in this challenge. I give props to Hairing too, good guy that can at least say he gave it his best shot, without yapping, and at least trying to prove he has a moa all day long shooter... Tikka boys, this is how you do it:

My new Tikka. Testing out 2 different loads:
[Linked Image]

My old hunting rifle. Tikka superlite:
[Linked Image]


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
I get a crack out of the Tikka threads where some poor guy posts a 1 1/4 to 1 1/2" 10 shot group and all the Tikka boys pile on saying yeah, something is wrong, you should be doing better. My azz, even Formid has stated that he shoots around 1.5 moa 10 shot groups on average with his.
It's true! You can get a helluva lot done with a 1 1/2MOA rifle or shooter, even win matches! smile


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1.5 moa is not going to win many matches typically when the X ring is 1 moa, and the ten ring is 2 moa. Add in conditions its going to beat you.

Of course if you can win and read conditions that well, think how much better/higher X you could be with a better rifle...conditions and holds are major important in stuff like position shooting.

That said 1 moa gets a bit easier, but remember the X ring, IE at 600 yards, is twice as wide as the 10 ring is. And if you and your gun might barely be capable of holding the X ring in perfect conditions for 10-22 plus shots....


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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