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In idaho we have some short range weapon hunts that allow you to use archery, slug/buckshot, pistol with a straight walled case originally introduced as a pistol round, or muzzle loader without the typical idaho muzzle loading rules.

A friend called today wanting to know what muzzleloading set up will get him to 400 yards. I haven't done much muzzleloading lately. I killed a buck in 2009 at 228 yards with an inline in Nebraska but thats my furthest muzzleloading kill. He can run a scope in these hunts so I told him to find a nice inline and we'll put a fixed 6 SS on it and work up a drop chart.

Any recommendations on a good shooting inline? He's looking to spend less than a grand on the gun.

I told him just to get a contender with a 14" 357 max barrel and we could load up some of the more pointy, higher BC, 350 legend bullets. Who makes a good pistol scope with repeatable dials?

He has access to some great farms around Rigby in the short range weapon area.

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Find a Savage, 400 is no problem.

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A few years ago I set up a TC omega to stretch out my effective range for antelope, coues deer and ibex. I switched breech plugs to a Precision Rifle breech plug that used their adapters and LR mag primers. I shoot PR bullets, the 195 gr 357 cal duplex sabot which uses two sabots. You wouldn’t think that would be conducive to accuracy but it shoots like a varmint rifle with weighed blackhorn charges. I’ve killed an ibex billy at 230 and though they don’t recommend the 195 I killed a bull elk at 404 and worked perfect. 20 min rail, SWFA 10x and a Boyd’s tacticool stock round out the package. Eventually ill move to a bolt action but it does everything I need right now. I’ve got a Sandhills muley tag and thinking about killing my oryx with it this year.


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Savage is the best way to go. Smokeless and heavy bullets will get you to 350-400 no problem.

Remington Ultimate is also a nice gun but I haven't played with it much.

Any of the custom makers will produce a 400 yard ML. You can always have one built or find a used custom one. I actually have one in .416 that I'd consider parting with. Let me know if interested.

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Quite a bit of information and knowledge based here:

https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forums/smokeless-muzzleloading.14/

I’ll research on the above forum when I’m looking at a project or a purchase.

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Jared: I am shooting an Omega with PR 195 grain duplex projectile with a max load of Blackhorn 209. I got ok groups but had occasional unexplained flyers. After muzzleloader season I shot at the range with snow on the ground and found some interesting results. Between the bench and target I could not find all the sabots. Careful examination of the target revealed that the flyers had sabot marks on the paper indicating the sabot never separated from the bullet. I also found some orange sabots on the ground with missing petals. I called Cecil Epp (proprietor) to discuss the issue but he was merely insulted that I would dare to question the superiority of his product and ballistic knowledge. Discussions with MMC sabots recommended their magnum sub base below the duplex sabot. Have you experienced anything like what I have?

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Not sure if they'll help, but Harvester makes high-pressure sabots for smokeless or other hot MLs. They sell direct too, at a savings over what their stuff goes for locally.

Search "Harvester sabots".


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If you are interested in long range mz , first find out if smokeless is allowed in the area you want to hunt. If it is, then proceed to buy a Savage, or one of the other smokeless custom options. If you are not familiar with those options, go the Savage Smokeless mz page (it used to be on Doug's message boards) or read some of Randy Wakeman (although some people think he is a quack) on his page, it offers good info on the Savage. I have a Savage and it is a true 300 yard gun with only a few mods. With a good dialing scope and a range finder I am sure you can shoot as far as you want with one. The customs are a step up from the Savage.
If you can't use smokeless, the Savage is not a bad option with standard BP subs, and is quite good with Blackhorn 209 ( as good or better than the other inlines). These guns show up here on the fire classifieds regularly; however, are not cheap.

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Pappy: The PR Duplex bullets are a lead 35 caliber bullet in an orange 45 caliber sabot inside a 50 caliber sabot. While made by MMC the injection molds are property of Precision Rifle . Because they are proprietary you can only buy them from Precision Rifle. The orange 35 caliber sabot is specially molded with a base that fits inside the rounded cavity in the inside bottom of the 50 caliber sabot. I have bought other 35 caliber MMC sabots and cut the base off so they fit inside the 50 caliber sabot and accuracy was abysmal.
Cecil Epps claims a Ballistic Coefficient of .375 for his 35 caliber lead bullet. No other 35 caliber bullet that I know of comes even close to that BC. I even used the charts that P. O. Ackley included with his book long before chronographs and computers to get a BC estimate and it was no where near .375. I called Epps to discuss all these matters with him and he went completely ballistic (no pun intended) on me. After looking at Epp's ballistic charts he states the charts were developed on Jan. 12, 2003 in Canada at a temperature of minus 32 degrees C. If he used 2 chronos (one at the muzzle and one at the target) and used the time of flight to calculate a BC that might explain his unusual high BC.
I have replaced the PR 50 caliber sabot with a Harvester crushed rib for the second shot because the factory PR bullets are so hard to load. The accuracy deteriorated but they loaded a lot quicker. The hard loading indicates to me that the plastic formula is much harder than other sabots. The reason I put so much effort into this system is trajectory. High Performance Muzzleloading did a trajectory comparison of the drop for a projectile sighted in at 100 yards. The drop at 200 yards was 5.25" for the 195 grain duplex Pr bullet and the Hornady 250 grain SST bullet was 10.8".

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Sounds like a lot of fuss. No need for such shenanigans here for the shots we get, thankfully, but if I wanted to go long, I'd probably go with a long .45 bullet and just dial for distance or use a multi-point reticle. I'll bet wind drift is "impressive".


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Bob I haven’t paid attention to the sabots but I will as I’m fixing to start shooting it quite a bit.

No smokeless here during Muzzleloader seasons. You could use it during rifle seasons, obviously.

One thing that has helped with tough loading is the Knuckle saver bullet starter. It was invented by one of the outfitters I used to guide for. I think you can find them at Cabela’s.


"I used to be a tired hunting guide, now I'm just a re-tired hunting guide"


"No eternal reward will forgive us now, for wasting the dawn" JM

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Savage. It's annoying to pay more for them than when they were new, and the insanely heavy barrel contour makes them annoying to carry (very muzzle forward), and I had to bed mine bc the bedding was completely horrible, but it's a laser beam and using regular smokeless powder like baby Jesus intended is amazing. I got a Precision Rifle Breechplug which also made life way easier.

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Thanks for info on Cecil Epps' bullets. And his attitude. Was going to try some, but I think I'll pass.


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pappy: Trajectory is important where scopes are not allowed on muzzle loaders.

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NM: thanks for hint on knuckle saver

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You might also look at CVA; their best line has nice barrels (Bergara). Burris makes a handgun scope in 2-7x with good eye relief and field of view. My Leupold 2.5-8 has neither.


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You might want to check LR Customs.. He makes,sells and converts Muzzleloaders, both Smokeless and/or BH209 compatible.
https://lrcustomsinc.com/

Last edited by rlp10ml; 10/02/19.
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I have a relative with a Bad Bull smokeless ML. He kills elk with it . They are more powerful than a 375 H&H. They cost a lot. But are a serious rifle. He says 350 is a chip shot with it. I just looked and they cost north of 5K.
I looked into them a couple of years ago and there are a couple of people doing conversions off Remington 700 SA rifles for a little more than 1K. I opted for a better breechplug and firing pin for the rifle I had to shoot BH209 out of my 700 ML.

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I'd look at a CVA Accura LR. Get a BH-209 breech plug and a SWFA mil-quad or MOA-quad scope. Under the stated $1k budget.


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