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Agreed with all re good to see Kevin back. IMO he's a very knowledgeable source that contributed a lot to this forum. He took the time to advise me to give some more thought about a CZ 75B I was thinking of either spending a considerable amount on a trigger job or selling. After shooting it some more the trigger smoothed out on it's own and it's probably the last handgun I'd sell.

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I too have always appreciated Kevin's knowledge and contributions. Shrapnel is another perfect example. You're going to lambaste him because he shoots grouse out of trees with a pistol? What manner of dumb phugk does that?

I've never understood the mentality of some folks here on the Campfire. When someone knowledgeable is giving you information for free, why would you try to aggravate the contributor? I see it happen so much on this board, it's ridiculous. If you don't like what's being offered, you can either ignore it or present a valid argument.


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Originally Posted by UPhiker
Yet, they slap their name on junk knives and flashlights made in China..

Maybe it's because that is what sells? Romantic notions about Brownings of old doesn't pay the bills. Sure, I prefer living in a world where the Hi Power is produced but apparently not enough to buy one.

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^^^^^^
I'm in the same boat. I won't keep house without at least one 1911. I keep at least one around "because great service to the US Military, John Moses Browning, and .45."

I think the Hi-Power is one of the dead sexiest looking pistols ever, but I've never been willing to spend the money "just to have one because."

Also, I don't carry single action autos. But if all I had was a 1911 .45 or a 9mm Hi-Power, I sure wouldn't feel inadequately armed.


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Originally Posted by UPhiker
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye

Non-gun-people are in charge of decision making.
That's the problem everywhere. I have a friend that started out as a Mech Engineer. He works for a pipeline company. When he was promoted, he had to get an MBA. Even he says that the MBA is the worst thing to happen to American business. The engineers, etc, who used to run manufacturing and other companies have no say anymore. Everything is run by "numbers people" with no concept of the product.


The Truth is strong in that post!


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Keyboards make people braver than alcohol

Election Integrity is more important than Election Convenience

Washington Post: "Democracy Dies in Darkness"
More correct: "Killing Democracy Faster Than Darkness"
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Originally Posted by CraigC
Originally Posted by UPhiker
Yet, they slap their name on junk knives and flashlights made in China..

Maybe it's because that is what sells? Romantic notions about Brownings of old doesn't pay the bills. Sure, I prefer living in a world where the Hi Power is produced but apparently not enough to buy one.

Notice that I said "junk" in the description? If they collaborated with Spyderco, Kershaw or even CRKT on some knives or Streamlight, Surefire or Fenix on lights, I'd be fine with it. But when you get Made In China $15 junk made of "surgical steel", it cheapens the brand.

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^^^^^^^
Years ago, before all the paperwork to buy a gun, our family was friends with a man who was a traveling sporting goods salesman for a big wholesale company. So we'd buy our guns through him to save some money. When my dad wanted a Browning A5, our friend had to run it through a gun shop that was a client of his. This was because Browning wanted only Browning authorized dealers selling guns, and they really frowned on guns being sold at cut rate prices. So much so that they might punish you by cutting your supply for a while, if not dropping you altogether. Now you can buy chicom crap in blister packs with the Browning name. Same with Winchester. Sad, just sad.


Clinging to guns & religion since 1959

Keyboards make people braver than alcohol

Election Integrity is more important than Election Convenience

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Originally Posted by UPhiker
Notice that I said "junk" in the description? If they collaborated with Spyderco, Kershaw or even CRKT on some knives or Streamlight, Surefire or Fenix on lights, I'd be fine with it. But when you get Made In China $15 junk made of "surgical steel", it cheapens the brand.

And THAT is what people are buying, "junk". We live in a lowest common denominator, lowest bidder, Walmart world. The issue lies not with the manufacturer, they make what people buy. The issue is with the average American consumer who'd rather have a greater quantity of cheap schit from China than fewer things of higher quality. I used to buy a lot of Craftsman tools from a fully functional Sears store. Now it comes from Lowe's and Ace and it's made in China. I'm simply not buying that crap. Most people just buy whatever is the cheapest.

In other words, I totally agree with your basic sentiment but the reality is that people just aren't buying the good stuff in enough quantity to justify its place on the market.

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Originally Posted by GunDoc7
I think the Hi-Power is one of the dead sexiest looking pistols ever, but I've never been willing to spend the money "just to have one because."

Same here. They're a gorgeous pistol, especially the nice polished blue models but I just never could justify the cost just to have one. I guess a lot of that stems from being primarily a revolver shooter but I have several 1911's. Or maybe because it's strictly 9mm, I haven't spent much time analyzing it either. wink

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Originally Posted by CraigC
Originally Posted by GunDoc7
I think the Hi-Power is one of the dead sexiest looking pistols ever, but I've never been willing to spend the money "just to have one because."

Same here. They're a gorgeous pistol, especially the nice polished blue models but I just never could justify the cost just to have one. I guess a lot of that stems from being primarily a revolver shooter but I have several 1911's. Or maybe because it's strictly 9mm, I haven't spent much time analyzing it either. wink

I just had to have one after seeing and shooting the one my friend's former college roommate brought to the range that day back in the late 1980s. It was a classic one from "way back when," with a bit of honest wear on the finish. Too cool.

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Colt has sold a lot more 1911s in the last few years since they lowered their (gouging) wholesale prices. Maybe Browning should do the same thing.

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Price gouging is a liberal invention. Resist the urge. Unless you know exactly how much it costs Colt to build a gun, how would you even know?

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They need to do like Colt does with their Series 70. Limited production, but faithful to the original with the round hammer, wood grips and deep blueing. I'd buy one


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Originally Posted by CraigC
Price gouging is a liberal invention. Resist the urge. Unless you know exactly how much it costs Colt to build a gun, how would you even know?

Because I see that Colt dropped their wholesale prices by a few hundred dollars on their 1911s and ARs in the last few years. Obviously, they were overpriced and people weren't buying, now they are. If I used price elasticity instead of gouging, would you be happier?

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Originally Posted by UPhiker
Originally Posted by CraigC
Price gouging is a liberal invention. Resist the urge. Unless you know exactly how much it costs Colt to build a gun, how would you even know?

Because I see that Colt dropped their wholesale prices by a few hundred dollars on their 1911s and ARs in the last few years. Obviously, they were overpriced and people weren't buying, now they are. If I used price elasticity instead of gouging, would you be happier?

Gouging doesn't just imply that the seller is asking more than buyers are willing to pay. In that event, sellers would just not sell many of their products. Gouging implies that the seller has a moral duty to sell at a more affordable price, but won't, which is a view held by people who don't understand free market principles.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by UPhiker
Originally Posted by CraigC
Price gouging is a liberal invention. Resist the urge. Unless you know exactly how much it costs Colt to build a gun, how would you even know?

Because I see that Colt dropped their wholesale prices by a few hundred dollars on their 1911s and ARs in the last few years. Obviously, they were overpriced and people weren't buying, now they are. If I used price elasticity instead of gouging, would you be happier?

Gauging doesn't just imply that the seller is asking more than buyers are willing to pay. In that event, sellers would just not sell many of their products. Gauging implies that the seller has a moral duty to sell at a more affordable price, but won't, which is a view held by people who don't understand free market principles.

That's why I included price elasticity. Do you know what that means? Colt was thinking that their name recognition afforded them a higher markup than the consumer did. Also. what's "gauging"?

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Originally Posted by UPhiker
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by UPhiker
Originally Posted by CraigC
Price gouging is a liberal invention. Resist the urge. Unless you know exactly how much it costs Colt to build a gun, how would you even know?

Because I see that Colt dropped their wholesale prices by a few hundred dollars on their 1911s and ARs in the last few years. Obviously, they were overpriced and people weren't buying, now they are. If I used price elasticity instead of gouging, would you be happier?

Gauging doesn't just imply that the seller is asking more than buyers are willing to pay. In that event, sellers would just not sell many of their products. Gauging implies that the seller has a moral duty to sell at a more affordable price, but won't, which is a view held by people who don't understand free market principles.

That's why I included price elasticity. Do you know what that means? Colt was thinking that their name recognition afforded them a higher markup than the consumer did. Also. what's "gauging"?

Weird, huh? Don't know why I spelled it like that. I seem to recall spelling it close to correctly, and then getting a suggestion to replace it. I guess I just assumed the auto-correct knew better than me, so okayed it both times without really looking at what it was replacing it with.

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Colt charging more isn't price gouging, it's market forces. You never want to be in the business of making a product for cost plus. Rather, you want to make something where you can charge "what the market will bear". Highly commotitized products like milk, clothes, etc, are typically on the cost plus model, with a few "boutique" marketers selling on the "perceived value" model.

For many years there were no really viable alternatives to Colt for 1911's. When they came available, it was at a time when Colt was very much taking advantage of their customers by making good, but not great products, and charging a premium. Now they are forced to play on a much more level playing field, and finally; they're doing very well at it. In fact, I consider Colt to be the best value in a 1911 these days. No one, at any price, makes a better frame & slide, and the rest of the Colt's are very nice these days.

Now, if you want to think someone is "gouging", look at the makers of plastic pistols. Glock was originally going to be priced at under $200 but they hired a US marketing director who (rightfully) advised them that to do so would be commercial suicide as no one would ever take them seriously. This shows how much margin there is with polymer pistols. It is because the players are selling based on "perceived value" and what the market will bear.

But understand, in the next 10 years, that's going to become ever more difficult as companies all over the globe are looking at modern manufacturing and how easy it is to get into this market. We're going to see what we now call "off brands" begin to take on the big boys and win. Remember, Glock was an "off brand" that no one ever heard of, and they kicked everyone's ass. Not only CAN that happen again, but I can just about guarantee it will happen again.

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Originally Posted by GunGeek
Colt charging more isn't price gouging, it's market forces. You never want to be in the business of making a product for cost plus. Rather, you want to make something where you can charge "what the market will bear". Highly commotitized products like milk, clothes, etc, are typically on the cost plus model, with a few "boutique" marketers selling on the "perceived value" model.

For many years there were no really viable alternatives to Colt for 1911's. When they came available, it was at a time when Colt was very much taking advantage of their customers by making good, but not great products, and charging a premium. Now they are forced to play on a much more level playing field, and finally; they're doing very well at it. In fact, I consider Colt to be the best value in a 1911 these days. No one, at any price, makes a better frame & slide, and the rest of the Colt's are very nice these days.

Now, if you want to think someone is "gouging", look at the makers of plastic pistols. Glock was originally going to be priced at under $200 but they hired a US marketing director who (rightfully) advised them that to do so would be commercial suicide as no one would ever take them seriously. This shows how much margin there is with polymer pistols. It is because the players are selling based on "perceived value" and what the market will bear.

But understand, in the next 10 years, that's going to become ever more difficult as companies all over the globe are looking at modern manufacturing and how easy it is to get into this market. We're going to see what we now call "off brands" begin to take on the big boys and win. Remember, Glock was an "off brand" that no one ever heard of, and they kicked everyone's ass. Not only CAN that happen again, but I can just about guarantee it will happen again.


I believe you are correct, Kevin. And nice to hear from you again!


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Originally Posted by GunDoc7
Originally Posted by UPhiker
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye

Non-gun-people are in charge of decision making.
That's the problem everywhere. I have a friend that started out as a Mech Engineer. He works for a pipeline company. When he was promoted, he had to get an MBA. Even he says that the MBA is the worst thing to happen to American business. The engineers, etc, who used to run manufacturing and other companies have no say anymore. Everything is run by "numbers people" with no concept of the product.


The Truth is strong in that post!




No kidding. It's the reason I got out of American corporations. Educated idiots at the top want to only hire their mirror images. I've personally seen them run more than one company into the ground, where I had previously had a great j.o.b.


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