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Keep in mind, "XM" mil surplus ammo is from lots that did meet spec for some reason and could not be delivered to military. Incorrect. "XM" is just a designation that Federal uses for some ammunition. All CBP ammo is marked XM40. It's not that XM855 doesn't meet spec, it's just that it was never inspected by the govt because when the military has enough, Federal/LC just keeps running the line and packaging it for civilians.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
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Keep in mind, "XM" mil surplus ammo is from lots that did meet spec for some reason and could not be delivered to military. Incorrect. "XM" is just a designation that Federal uses for some ammunition. All CBP ammo is marked XM40. It's not that XM855 doesn't meet spec, it's just that it was never inspected by the govt because when the military has enough, Federal/LC just keeps running the line and packaging it for civilians. This is what I've seen as well, it wasn't loaded to spec to begin with..usually it isn't as hot nor does it have the black sealant on the bullet, some of it doesn't even have sealed primers. Why they bother to crimp it is beyond me.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2005
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I recall on our way out of there we got a ride from Al Kut to Kuwait on a Marine Corps C-130, then after some delay, we took Marine CH-53's back out to the mother ship (LHD3 USS Kearsearge).
We were filthy of course, and during our few hour delay in Kuwait the USAF invited us to eat in their chow hall. It was awesome, like a stateside buffet or something. Really clean and classy. I'm surprised they even wanted us in there, but I have to say they were really giving us good hospitality. The USAF were clean and tidy...I think they felt we were some kind of savages they were not accustomed to...….kinda funny. Sounds like you guys were at Ali al Saleem air base, for your short visit. Later on in the war in Iraq all service member going on R&R went through Ali al Saleem.
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Hey Montana Marine, in case I missed you before, thanks for your service.
W. Bill
United States Navy
I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,023
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,023 |
Hey Montana Marine, in case I missed you before, thanks for your service.
W. Bill
United States Navy And same back to you!
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Campfire Tracker
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So it seems the current accuracy standards on the M855/XM855 is really no better than Russian steel-case blaster ammo in 5.56 or 7.62x39. No, real current Russian ammo is good for about 90% of rounds going into 7-9 MOA extreme spread. Most M855A1 is good for 90% going into half that. Out of certain a certain URG it’s damn near MK262 precision. Just for the sake of the audience - a 6.8 MOA Mean Radius is a HELL of a lot bigger than a 6 or even 6.8 MOA extreme spread. Imagine a target where every shot was exactly 6.8 MOA from the group center. What you would see is a circle of shots 13.6 minutes in diameter, a group with an extreme spread of 13.6 MOA.  That is correct. That is “allowable”. But, the worst I’ve seen is 7-8 MOA extreme spread for 3x10 round groups.
Questions about A1; The early press releases were about M855A1 utilizing a composite tungsten slug behind the steel penetrator. Not true? There were also later bits about the hazards of tungsten potentially dooming 855A1. On the match accuracy front, there was a bit of hoopla about 7 or 8 years back where Rob Harbison, former AMU Olympic shooter was drafted out of his retirement by Picatinny to shoot at Camp Perry across the course with M855A1 and turned in some very respectable scores. More than respectable for someone shooting a mag length round all the way across to 600 yards. Hand picked lot? Pre production with high QC?
Since inception the EPR project (Enhanced Performance Round) has had at least three major design revisions. The final, and issued round is copper jacket, solid copper plug, exposed steel tip. Early lots of M855A1 were around 2.5 MOA ES from rack grade guns. From 1-9” twist NM service rifles it would do about 90% of rounds sub 2 MOA. The army and military as a whole are still BS’ing everyone with what the pre mass production ammo did. Issued ammo does not do that from either one of those setups. Form, I have a question. Knowing that M855A1 is so hard on guns, why do they continue to load it so hot? M855A1 is a long and complicated road. Rest assured it had nothing/very little to do with finding an improved anti personnel round, and everything to do with politics, cronyism from military engineers, and poor ignorance. Penetration of mild steel was the military’s “ballistic” engineers goal. Well that and not adopting the superb joint SOCOM/USMC SOST 62gr Barrier Round. They needed the high velocities (high pressures followed) to meet the steel penetration “requirement”. Of course the fact that mild steel penetration is not, and never has been a requirement or request from end users didn’t stop the kinetic energy idiots from pushing only that. That it actually features significantly increased terminal ballistics was a total accident. As to why they continue to issue it inspite of it’s MANY significant issues is pure politics. The army strong armed the USMC into accepting it and dropping SOST using Congress. They have consistently mislead everyone as to its real capabilities. There is no way they will admit all the fraud waste and abuse that happened with EPR. If you’re in a conventional or General SOF unit: 1). The good news is that if you hit, it has very good terminal ballistics. Far and away better than any issued 7.62mm except M80A1. 2). It’s working pulically known velocity range is unlimited to 1,900fps. 3. It is generally slightly more consistent than M855. The bad news for those people- 1). Precision is quite poor in ALL normal barrels and uppers. Hitting vital organs past 100-120 meters is not consistent. 2). It is exceedingly hard on barrels and bolts- 4-6,000 rounds on average max. 3. In any magazine but Gen 3 Pmags, reliability is compromised. 4). Still lot to lot inconsistent. There was not a bigger critic of A1 than I for years because it fails on so many points. However, there is a single system that addresses all of the issues, and allows A1 to produce extremely good precision- like 3 MOA for 100 round groups good. That combined with its excellent terminal ballistics makes it a formidable loading. Unfortunately very few will be able to use that system, and therefore it still has significant problems as a general purpose load.
Last edited by Formidilosus; 07/16/19.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
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Sarcasm= It shouldn’t hurt the Mini 14’s accuracy then.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2012
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So it seems the current accuracy standards on the M855/XM855 is really no better than Russian steel-case blaster ammo in 5.56 or 7.62x39. No, real current Russian ammo is good for about 90% of rounds going into 7-9 MOA extreme spread. Most M855A1 is good for 90% going into half that. Out of certain a certain URG it’s damn near MK262 precision. Just for the sake of the audience - a 6.8 MOA Mean Radius is a HELL of a lot bigger than a 6 or even 6.8 MOA extreme spread. Imagine a target where every shot was exactly 6.8 MOA from the group center. What you would see is a circle of shots 13.6 minutes in diameter, a group with an extreme spread of 13.6 MOA. That is correct. That is “allowable”. But, the worst I’ve seen is 7-8 MOA extreme spread for 3x10 round groups.
Questions about A1; The early press releases were about M855A1 utilizing a composite tungsten slug behind the steel penetrator. Not true? There were also later bits about the hazards of tungsten potentially dooming 855A1. On the match accuracy front, there was a bit of hoopla about 7 or 8 years back where Rob Harbison, former AMU Olympic shooter was drafted out of his retirement by Picatinny to shoot at Camp Perry across the course with M855A1 and turned in some very respectable scores. More than respectable for someone shooting a mag length round all the way across to 600 yards. Hand picked lot? Pre production with high QC?
Since inception the EPR project (Enhanced Performance Round) has had at least three major design revisions. The final, and issued round is copper jacket, solid copper plug, exposed steel tip. Early lots of M855A1 were around 2.5 MOA ES from rack grade guns. From 1-9” twist NM service rifles it would do about 90% of rounds sub 2 MOA. The army and military as a whole are still BS’ing everyone with what the pre mass production ammo did. Issued ammo does not do that from either one of those setups. Form, I have a question. Knowing that M855A1 is so hard on guns, why do they continue to load it so hot? M855A1 is a long and complicated road. Rest assured it had nothing/very little to do with finding an improved anti personnel round, and everything to do with politics, cronyism from military engineers, and poor ignorance. Penetration of mild steel was the military’s “ballistic” engineers goal. Well that and not adopting the superb joint SOCOM/USMC SOST 62gr Barrier Round. They needed the high velocities (high pressures followed) to meet the steel penetration “requirement”. Of course the fact that mild steel penetration is not, and never has been a requirement or request from end users didn’t stop the kinetic energy idiots from pushing only that. That it actually features significantly increased terminal ballistics was a total accident. As to why they continue to issue it inspite of it’s MANY significant issues is pure politics. The army strong armed the USMC into accepting it and dropping SOST using Congress. They have consistently mislead everyone as to its real capabilities. There is no way they will admit all the fraud waste and abuse that happened with EPR. If you’re in a conventional or General SOF unit: 1). The good news is that if you hit, it has very good terminal ballistics. Far and away better than any issued 7.62mm except M80A1. 2). It’s working pulically known velocity range is unlimited to 1,900fps. 3. It is generally slightly more consistent than M855. The bad news for those people- 1). Precision is quite poor in ALL normal barrels and uppers. Hitting vital organs past 100-120 meters is not consistent. 2). It is exceedingly hard on barrels and bolts- 4-6,000 rounds on average max. 3. In any magazine but Gen 3 Pmags, reliability is compromised. 4). Still lot to lot inconsistent. There was not a bigger critic of A1 than I for years because it fails on so many points. However, there is a single system that addresses all of the issues, and allows A1 to produce extremely good precision- like 3 MOA for 100 round groups good. That combined with its excellent terminal ballistics makes it a formidable loading. Unfortunately very few will be able to use that system, and therefore it still has significant problems as a general purpose load. Politics in the DOD procurement system...... No way............  What wpn are you talking about? Buncha post back you seemed to be speaking of a specific wpn system also. ???? Inquiring minds wanna know.
Last edited by renegade50; 07/16/19.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Yet, instead of improving the accuracy of the load to make it "longer range", they want to go to a whole new round...
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
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Politics in the DOD procurement system...... No way............ What wpn are you talking about? Buncha post back you seemed to be speaking of a specific wpn system also. ???? Inquiring minds wanna know. Lewis Machine & Tool Monolithic Rail Platform. New Colt M4A1 Barrel in a return to battery rest- ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/WSoM5c2.jpg) LMT MRP- ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/d6WQP3o.jpg)
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Joined: Nov 2018
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,487 |
Back in my USMC days we transitioned from the M16A1/M193, to the M16A2/M855.
After the transition, requal scores took a significant increase across the board. So much so, that the scores for the ratings of Expert/Sharpshooter/Marksman were raised.
With the A2/M855, I have clear memories of the good shooters putting all ten rounds in a sub-10 inch group at the 300 Rapid Fire stage, prone/loop sling. Down in the butts, those groups were often covered with the 10-inch spotter meant for the 500 line. I remember that change fondly. Really liked the A2 and the heavier bullets. Regards, Guy
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,093 |
How do the various 556’s compare in terminal performance in the M4? Just curious if anyone has heard from guys in the know?
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 45,014
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 45,014 |
Politics in the DOD procurement system...... No way............ What wpn are you talking about? Buncha post back you seemed to be speaking of a specific wpn system also. ???? Inquiring minds wanna know. Lewis Machine & Tool Monolithic Rail Platform. New Colt M4A1 Barrel in a return to battery rest- LMT MRP- 16" CL put into the lmt??? Chrome lined barrel? What brand???? The Lmt Mrp Is it a Forged billet and then Machined Or cast billet and then machined I can see why unca suga dont wanna adopt it full blown. Average Joe proof, average Joe maintenance and cost... Probably can get 3 or 4 m4,s vs the cost of a lmt wpn.
Last edited by renegade50; 07/16/19.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 |
16" CL put into the lmt???
Chrome lined barrel? What brand????
Is it a
Forged billet and then Machined
Or cast billet and then machined
I can see why unca suga dont wanna adopt it full blown.
Average Joe proof ?
And cost...
That was just one. 10.5”, 11.5”, 14.5” and 16” have all been tested. Multiples of each. The all shoot like that. LMT makes their own barrels. The MRP is a monolithic upper and hand guard. It requires a different barrel extension. Their barrels are very good, the most consistently accurate barrel/upper that I have seen in lots of testing, have an angled gas port,stress relieved, and user level quick change barrels. They make an enhanced bolt and carrier that greatly extends the bolt life. Don’t know what it is yet, as the most I have on one is 40,000+ M855A1 rounds on it and is still fine. The MRP is without question the most durable M4 upper reciever group on the market. Price is about like all other top tier offerings- around $1,200-1,400 an upper.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 |
LMT 10.5” barrel. 30 rounds of M855A1, 100 yards mag monopoded prone. Fired in 60 seconds. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/IvTclQK.jpg)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 45,014 |
Gawt damm dude !!!
I thought I had a good job as a contractor running small arms ranges on ftcky after I retired and being around Joe's still.
Never boring , always new.
You got the dream job man!!!!
Where are you at?
Anniston
Aberdeen
Tobyhanna
LC
Dugway ( still exist???)
Last edited by renegade50; 07/16/19.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 45,014 |
Formidilous I gotta mess with ya a little man.... 100m /109yds 20 shots, open sights Bench and bag Less than a minute ( actually around 45 or 50 seconds) Last 6 to 7rds heat mirage and fuzzy front sight. ![[Linked Image]](https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/103800.jpg) Done with this Gordon Tech assembled Arsenal SLR 100H wolf polyformance 123gr hp ( barnual actually) And I ain't bullschitting one bit. ![[Linked Image]](https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/103801.jpg)
Last edited by renegade50; 07/16/19.
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,023 |
Back in my USMC days we transitioned from the M16A1/M193, to the M16A2/M855.
After the transition, requal scores took a significant increase across the board. So much so, that the scores for the ratings of Expert/Sharpshooter/Marksman were raised.
With the A2/M855, I have clear memories of the good shooters putting all ten rounds in a sub-10 inch group at the 300 Rapid Fire stage, prone/loop sling. Down in the butts, those groups were often covered with the 10-inch spotter meant for the 500 line. I remember that change fondly. Really liked the A2 and the heavier bullets. Regards, Guy Same here. My rifle qual scores went from the 220's to the 240's.....from low Expert to high Expert.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,023
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,023 |
I recall on our way out of there we got a ride from Al Kut to Kuwait on a Marine Corps C-130, then after some delay, we took Marine CH-53's back out to the mother ship (LHD3 USS Kearsearge).
We were filthy of course, and during our few hour delay in Kuwait the USAF invited us to eat in their chow hall. It was awesome, like a stateside buffet or something. Really clean and classy. I'm surprised they even wanted us in there, but I have to say they were really giving us good hospitality. The USAF were clean and tidy...I think they felt we were some kind of savages they were not accustomed to...….kinda funny. Sounds like you guys were at Ali al Saleem air base, for your short visit. Later on in the war in Iraq all service member going on R&R went through Ali al Saleem. That might be it. I couldn't remember the name of the place, but that sounds vaguely familiar.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,023
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,023 |
Formidilous I gotta mess with ya a little man.... 100m /109yds 20 shots, open sights Bench and bag Less than a minute ( actually around 45 or 50 seconds) Last 6 to 7rds heat mirage and fuzzy front sight. Done with this Gordon Tech assembled Arsenal SLR 100H wolf polyformance 123gr hp ( barnual actually) And I ain't bullschitting one bit. My 7.62x39 is the AR upper. It's not bad either. TulaAmmo 122gr FMJ, 81 yards, 3X optic. I was sitting on my butt leaning against the truck tire, sending them at a fairly quick cadence. ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/ssbIbB4.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/fDNWarz.jpg)
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