Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .22 RF alternatives

Knock it off your two.
Im no where near ready to figure out how to find a K frame Smith for these darn things and I sure am not ever gong to own a contender. So just stop getting so much done on this. Cause its causing a serious itch. AND that always leads to a bunch of money going up the chimney and some new toy in the Box. Center Fire Bolt rifle 22.............. Hmmmmmm.

Converting a 10/22 bolt should not be difficult, hole poppers and wire EDMs make perfect holes right where you want them, space for springs could be an issue, but not a fatal one,

Well, I did it. Finally.

This journey has spanned a couple of years and likely will take some more of my time on a few minor points. Suffice to say it has been an interesting and educational adventure. I am at a crossroads with this and will say that I will continue to tinker with it, but at the same time am comfortable with where it has led for both subsonic and supersonic loads. The project has illustrated a number of things from a technical perspective. It does not require sophisticated tools or dies. Very minor changes have significant impact. Small flaws are not tolerated well insofar as precision is concerned. Of course your version of precision and mine may be different things. It was quite some time ago that this package was functional for hunting small game in the 30-50 yard range in my opinion. Today it demonstrated with some clarity it was squirrel capable at 50.

Couple of images for the record:

Federal primers still have rounded edges. I fumbled up on this as 3 cases were on a shelf when I took the picture...they look the same.


The brass extracted easily with no indication(s) of incipient failure. This was the second round of shooting for the brass pictured above.

Double bag rest at 50 yards and in the shade.



Fouling rounds were fired at top center, and the rest in numerical sequence. I had not fiddled with Bullseye for quite some time but figured what the heck, it was a new horizon with the brass, primers and charge. All loads ranged from what I estimate to be 90-95% load density and it seems the extra ooomph has stabilize affairs to some degree. Group #5 made me smile a bit.

Things that need doin'..........

-Examine whether or not annealing the RCC brass will alleviate the need for a crimping tool.
-If not, fabricate one.
-Upgrade the mould, or heaven forbid, find someone that can make a precision hammer swage which would be my preference.
-Build a CF bolt for my 10/22 to verify function and performance. I have no reservations whatsoever this will work.

I am hopeful that one or more players in the industry will put this idea into production. To my eye it is a marketer's dream on may levels. Why you ask?

a) It will open the world to educational experience and training for both adults and kids.
b) It will allow manufacturers to offer firearm options individually or in package format
c) Vulnerability to market aberrations will be far less significant
d) It opens another door for marketing/competition of reloading supplies

There's probably a few more, if so, fill in the blanks

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions and when you get a chance, spread the news.

Dan

I think it is a good way to get kids to reload. my 2 grandkids love to load with me there 4&5.they would love to reload and shoot there own ammo. I have a marlin bolt gun I mite try to change it to s.f

Gents, I'm back with some news about the project and am on the cusp of fine tuning this affair. First though I would like to provide a smile for those with imagination.

As you may be aware the various state game and fish departments have their rules, somewhat unique in total form, but also sharing similar traits with neighbors or even distant cousins. You've heard no doubt that some states forbid shooting small game with anything other than rimfire but they might also allow big game hunting with any centerifre of .22 caliber or larger. Or the adjoining states might do one or the other. Well, a fella posted on another website about this project "It wouldn't be legal", this in reference to small game hunting in his state. It occurred to me at that juncture, that a) if you're in one of those states, and b) own a Contender, that c) you could put RF ammo in one pocket and CF in the other and rock on. Of course this would only be appropriate for bonafide stunt shooters and I am not suggesting this be done....but it would surely confuse the game warden if he was checking up on you during a day in the field, no?

OK, on with the show! Mentioned previously that crimping was an issue with the new brass and my intentions were to anneal the fired brass and see how it responded to the crimping tool I've been using. Puzzled a bit about how to do that as the brass is tiny and my fingers large. Well, here ya go, and it works like a charm!



I'm preparing to load for the next round, same powders with a bump of .1 grain for each. I anticipate cracking the 1,200 fps barrier w/o much problem and will let you know how it goes.

Off on a small tangent, that being brass supply. My first effort to do this led me to Rocky Mountain Cartridge, formerly of Cody, WY, and a source of oddball brass for a few of my guns, the .25-20 SS as example. The company was sold to another party and they were amenable to making some brass for this endeavor. Their production was not usable do to failure to adhere to specs and I sent it back for their amusement. Nonetheless, they are advertising it on their website for whatever it may be worth. I recently had conversations with several other brass makers and have been informed they use the same alloy of brass I used in round 1 (Thanks Jimy!), so if you want some that would be one source perhaps. My primary issue for their production was the case OD was in the .220 range, neck walls were too thick (.010") and the ID around ..200" That may work in your gun if you have a bullet with proper heel diameter. My bullet heel is .210" diameter. 'Nuff said on that.

I contacted RCC ( https://www.rccbrass.com/ ) and after discussion had them grind out 50 cases. They are not cheap by any means, but they are to spec and of more robust alloy. After fiddling around I decided to order some more and things got a little strange. Multiple attempts to place an order failed and I had no idea what was going on. Sooooo, I started calling some other companies. Fist thing I learned, there are precious few people doing this in the USA. At this juncture I have identified only 4, two of which I've already named. First up was Colorado Custom Cartridge ( http://coloradocustomcartridges.com/ ) and after a very cordial conversation it was suggested that I contact another company, Quality Cartridge ( https://www.qual-cart.com/index.html ). Unlike the first three, QC makes their brass by drawing the brass, not turning on at lathe or similar machinery. I enjoyed the chat with Pete and came away with the following info: Due to set up costs and minimum purchase obligations for cups his initial set up to make drawn .22 GTC cases would run in the neighborhood of $150,000.00. OUCH! That said, he would have sufficient supplies to make several million cases. I was stunned to say the least, and failed to find out was unit cost would be. He called me back the next day however and suggested he would set up to turn cases for $1.50 per unit with a minimum order of 10,000 cases. Anyone want to do a group buy?

Wouldn't you know it, but RCC called me the next day. They had been in disaster recovery mode for several weeks after their programmer had left the company, but had landed on their feet and were ready for my order. I placed that and asked them to enlarge the primer pocket to .173" (SAAMI min.) and was advised there would be about a 3 month wait. No problem for me, give a call when you're ready to accept payment I responded. He called the next day due to their moving the production schedule forward, the result of another order for several hundred cases. (Yeah, I'm smiling here!) I coughed up the jingle and am keeping an eye on the mailbox!

Well, that's the state of affairs at present. I have it on good authority that one of my Loony friends is gearing up to modify a 10/22 bolt to CF. I have a date with a fellow Tuesday morning to find out if he's got the moxie to make me a hammer swage that will allow me to fine tune the bullets. If he can pull that off he'll get to make a couple more tools in the spirit of the old Ideal 310 tool.

Stay tuned,

Dan

What am I missing on your annealing set up?

The propane torch?

My style of annealing involves holding the case on a nail in the jaws of a pair of pliers and spinning it with the fingers of my free hand in contact with the case rim. In lieu of other influences, when the case rim grows warm/hot to the touch it gets dumped in a container of water. What I did with this rig is to simply spin the wire between fingers until I achieve the desired discoloration of the case mouth, or forward half of the cartridge case.

FWIW, the case in the picture has been annealed.

“I see!” said the blind man 😊

The news is that the annealing theory worked like a champ. The crimp tool used previously put a taper crimp equal to heel length and the union is solid. 3 rounds cycled thro the 10/22 flawlessly.

Thanks for the update. Iam going to read the whole thread again. I am interested in this project. Be Well. Rusty

Dan hope the bolt conversion goes well.

Can't wait to see it in action.

Funny story about this project unfolded today. I visited a gunshop here in the local area, first one that I've visited since moving here that I rather enjoy. Purpose of the visit to discuss having them produce a hammer die for the bullets. It's a simple concept on the face of it though the requirement for adherence to specs is significant.

I had spoken to their machinist several weeks back and he seemed to know what I was talking about. Last week, well, not so much. So there I was in the shop with a die set for another gun (.50 Cal ML) and I put it on the counter. Young fella's eyes seemed to glaze a little.....he had never seen or heard of such a thing. Somehow we failed the younger generation I reckon.

After about 10 minutes of conversation the light went on in his mind and I could see he was hooked. He took my sketch, bullets and contact info and said he would be back in touch next week some time. We talked briefly about the project and would ya believe it, he never heard of Col. Askins either....

Oh well, I tried to save one of them today; standby for further developments.

Lots of cool ideas on this thread.

Well, I did it finally! Found the place where I need to step back a little. Fired a round today and thoroughly smacked the 1200 fps barrier and had a couple rounds that cracked 1300 fps. The downside is that I will not revisit these loads again due to a number of issues I will explain in the following text.

Loads today were fired with RCC brass, Federal small pistol primers and the bullets lubed with NASA lube. There were 4 test loads of 3 shots each and detailed data follows:

Fouler rounds: 5 shots CCI SV Avg 1080, ES 42; Sd 16
Load #1: 1.2 grains of Bullseye; 1309, 1294, 1269 fps Avg 1290 fps; ES 40; Sd 20
Load #2: 1.1 grains of 700X; 1219, 1230, 1241 fps Avg 1230 fps; ES 22; Sd 11 - One case lost due to expanded primer pocket
Load #3: 1.3 grains of WW231: 1289, 1267, 1304 fps Avg 1286; ES 37; Sd 18
Load #4: 1.1 grains of Red Dot: 1269, 1266, 1243 fps Avg 1259; ES 26; Sd 14 - One case lost due to expanded primer pocket
5 rounds followup with CCI SV: Avg 1063, ES 30, Sd 12

In the image that follows it is apparent the primers were flattened and is some cases there was gas leakage around the primers. The cases are organized L-R in the order referenced above.



All case diameters immediately forward of the rim expanded .001-.002". All primer pockets expanded to some degree though most are still usable. The charge increase was only .1 grains from the previous exercise (8-9% charge increase) and it appears there was a corresponding velocity increase though not necessarily linear. Extraction ranged from slight to moderately stiff.

One likely candidate for why this happened is the matter of case volume. The .22 GTC cases have a volume of approximately .012 cubic inches from web to bullet base, whereas industry RF ammo is about 40% greater, at .017 cubic inches. Load densities for the loads above ranged from 95-98%+ to approximately 102% (WAG) for the Red Dot load. It is reasonable to assume there is a correlation between this and running head long into the pressure wall. A possible co-conspirator is the crimp put in place after annealing the brass, but I'm somewhat skeptical about that influence. It is fair to say the previous round was not tightly crimped at all, but this one was reasonably firm. About .002" of taper crimp for the record.

The rounds were sure 'nuff crackin' each time I pulled the trigger though. In fact they were having so much fun they seemed to have forgotten the road map.



I will step back and load the previous round's charges with the crimp and see what the results of that are....mebbe even fall back to the CCI primers for giggles.

That is all for the time being. I've got to tear down the log backstop and put up something a bit more rot resistant. I'm guessing it will be 3 weeks or so before that is finished.

Have you tried some slower powders lately?

Not recently. Might give that a try when I get back on track.

This project has been remarkably entertaining on many levels. Mentioned above that I blew a couple of primer pockets if you recall. Well, it was all 12 of them that would not hold a primer. Part of the equation is the pocket walls are only .0255" thick which makes them vulnerable to pressure excursions. It also makes them amenable to sizing to correct the problem. When this started one of my neighbors was rather enthusiastic about the whole thing and without understanding the finer points attempted to make me a sizing die. First one was out of spec, so was #2. Not to be defeated he made #3 which in truth I had little use for at the time. Guess what? I just repaired all of the cases and we are ready to rock! And no, I did not use a press. Insert case in die, tap it down to the rim with a soft face hammer, invert and tap it out with a small diameter punch. Yes, I used some case lube...

It makes me smile that this can be done w/o the use of conventional dies and tools for the most part. Not to say that something like a 310 tool wouldn't be useful as it surely would be and it is next on the agenda after the hammer die project is completed.

Thanks for the update Dan.

Keep them coming.

So your intent is to load your own .22 LR's - if so, what to use for priming compound?

When I was in college, Uberti had listed in their catalogs some replica Henrys in .44 rimfire, and Dad & I were trying to figure out how we'd load some. At some point the phrase "fulminate of mercury" came up and we decided discretion was the better part of valor...

Reloading RF ammo has been on the table for some time. Frankly my dear............

http://22lrreloader.com/design-details/