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RickBin Offline OP
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Pondering some options here for using TSS-18 or HW-15 in 12 gauge pheasant loads:

Option 1: Pure TSS-18 #9 shot - 7/8 oz at 1650 fps. This batch of TSS is actually a bit denser than 18, and so we are looking at 307 pellets, which happens to be exactly the pellet count in a 1 3/8 oz charge of lead #6. The TSS #9 retains lethality (1.5-inch penetration) to 73 yards at 1450 fps (I can't find this data for 1650 fps, but range will be extended!), so, assuming I can get it to pattern, just wow. The downside is it's roughly $3 per shell in payload, and I am not sure I can get it to open up fast enough for close flushers.

Option 2: HW-15 #7 shot. Still expensive, but less so by half: $1.50-ish payload per shell. A full one ounce load at a screaming 1550-1650 fps, 221 pellet count, which is about equal to 1 oz of lead 6's or 1 5/16 oz of lead 5's. The only lethality data I could find was at 1300 fps, where these babies carry energy sufficient to yield 1.5 inches of penetration out to 72 yards. Wow again. Add 300-ish fps and you have some serious range for wild-flushing roosters!

Option 3: Duplex: I can use 3-inch shells, and load a 1 3/8 oz payload to 1350 fps. 3/8 oz of #9 TSS (115 pellets), behind 1 oz of lead #5's (172 pellets) say, the TSS #9's pushing the 5's into blossoming fast for the close flushers, and the core of 9's holding together for extended range ... at least in theory. Also, cheaper yet again at $1.10-ish per shell.

Option #4: Same duplex concept, but with #7 HW-15's backing up lead 5's or 6's. To get pellet count up, it looks like I could get a 1 5/8 oz payload to 1300 fps. 5/8 oz of the HW-15 is 137 pellets, then 1 oz of 6's is 223 pellets. Little less expensive still at under $1 payload per shell.

Obviously on the duplex loads I could fiddle with how much and what size of tungsten as well as lead to find an optimal combo of range, pellet counts, lethality, etc.

Any thoughts welcome ...


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My thoughts on duplex loads are they sound good but in reality they combine the worst of each shot size. The large pellets are not needed at the range the smaller ones are lethal while the smaller pellets take up space needed for more large pellets to produce adequate pellet count beyond the lethal range of the smaller pellets. Duplex loads are a good advertising trick to separate money from wallets.

As for gearing for 70 yard shots, just how often does one see them compared to 40 yards and under plus how likely is one to connect on such a bird? And if hit, what is the odds of the bird being recovered if wounded? I personally would load/choke for shots up to 45-50 yards tops and consider myself more than adequately prepared for any opportunity I would find. I would also forget the 1.5" penetration nonsense as that is a theoretical estimation that does not take into account all the various shot presentations one can see in the field. It is going to take a lot more energy/penetration to reach the vitals of a 3 year old rooster flying away from you than an inch and a half. If you want to reduce the odds of biting down on a piece of shot, you will need even more penetration than the looked for minimum to get exit wounds.

The loads you are contemplating will probably meet my expectations for pheasants but at a much closer range. If I were consistently seeing more birds at 50+ yards I would either look closely at my tactics and find what I am doing wrong or figure the birds found an ideal sanctuary against human predators. Even then, one can usually figure out a counter that will work on occasion at least. Or, I would consider them rifle fodder as is legal in my state.

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Appreciate your input. I have been loading lead field loads since I was a boy, and had settled on my favorite loads years ago, since I tend to use the same shotguns. This lead-free stuff is pretty new to me. For one thing, I can't believe people are getting 1650 fps from tungsten and bismuth. Holy smokes.

One thing it took me a couple of reads of your post ... maybe you meant the opposite, but:

"The large pellets are not needed at the range the smaller ones are lethal while the smaller pellets take up space needed for more large pellets to produce adequate pellet count beyond the lethal range of the smaller pellets."

Everything I've seen with tungsten duplex loads stacks the smaller Tungsten in the bottom of the shot cup, larger steel or even lead up front. The smaller tungsten pellets are the ones that retain lethality at longer ranges, due both to retained energy as well as pattern density. The bigger, less dense pellets are intended to address shorter ranges. So there is nothing beyond the lethal range of the smaller pellets.

As to the 70-yard birds, the jury is still out here, as I have yet to fire even one tungsten load. But I will say I remember in pre-rangefinding days that a plus-400-yard rifle shot was something. Post rangefinders, heck it seems double that distance is a chip shot to a lot of folks. The 70 yard number was more a restatement of what the gel penetration calcs spit out. We'll see how that transfers to the field for me this coming year. I suspect we'll see enhanced ranges. How much? Dunno yet.

The 1.5 gel penetration is just a standardized way to compare. I think for geese they use 2.25 inches. Suffice it to say we could agree on whatever standard you'd like, and then alter the numbers. The idea is to have a constant as a basis of comparison.

Have you gotten to shoot any tungsten? Most guys are using it for turkeys, which mean a lot of the load data is way too heavy. Some of the waterfowl data sure looks interesting though!


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Sorry, my original response was erased Tuesday night when I lost connection on my end. Work, sleep, and shooting took up the rest of the time until now. I'll have to write quick, hopefully I can sneak this in before I get rebooted.

Yeah, that is a little confusing. Suffice to say, I think duplex loads are an answer to a problem no one ever had. They are a compromise combining the worst attributes of each shot size. Adding larger shot to smaller shot does nothing other than to potentially lower the number of hits on the target. What few larger shot that are in the load are not adding much to "knock down" as they unlikely to have a couple make contact with the target. If penetration is needed, go with all larger shot to get the shot totals up for best patterns with that size.

I am not much into "long range" shooting of game animals, the longer the range the more likely the odds of something going amiss. Rangefinders and Internet applications can help a rifle shooter but most birds fly fast enough that ranging the target, entering the data into an app, and then using that information to make the shot would put the bird far enough away to need a rifle.

Dropping a bird "way out there" is also harder to locate, even with a good dog. If merely wing tipped, the more distance between the rooster and dog/shooter the more likely the bird is to be lost. I've shot more than a few roosters at typical range that still gave the dogs the slip. I would not feel good with the odds at greater range.

I've used most, if not all, the various lead substitutes to one degree or another. I've used Hevi-shot the most followed by Federal's discontinued tungsten/iron and tungsten/poly offerings. I shot a couple cases of Hevi-shot at waterfowl and pheasants and however many 12 ga rounds fit in a 50 cal ammo can and a 30 cal ammo can of 20 ga of the Federal loads. I also loaded and shot a 25 pound bag of the tungsten/poly before it was pulled. I've reloaded Hevi-shot too, a couple jars of #6 shot for pheasants and a couple more of 12 shot for crows. The latter from a 20 ga knocks crows down like a 2 1/8 oz load of 7 1/2 from the 10 ga.lll I've used Hevi-shot Classic Doubles, Hevi X, and Fiocchi Tundra the least, maybe 50 each of the end ones and 100 of the middle.

I didn't think poorly of any of them though the Federals seemed a bit light on shot count and the Classic Doubles were slower than molasses and messed up my leads at first. Loads moving faster than 1200 fps quickly began to add up on recoil but little in down range effectiveness. #4 or 5 lead shot will run out of pattern density long before individual pellet lethality.

I think these steel alternatives shine in the smaller bores but are generally unnecessary in the 12 ga. I see a lot more wild birds under 40 yards than over and gear my equipment for those likelihoods. .

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Nines are too big and dangerous wingshooting around other people. Look at T10s.


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Nines are too big and dangerous wingshooting around other people. Look at T10s.


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To keep cost down somewhat, and be ready for a close shot, run lead for the 1st shot, or two, then follow it with a Hevi-Shot or TSS round for the longer shot.

I've been loading Hevi-Shot since about 2002. Great stuff.

I have not loaded any TSS, or Heavyweight.

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If lead is legal that is what I would shoot, the best nickle plated magnum shot I could find in size 7 and 5. Or do what K22 suggested.

I have only shot the turkey duplex loads inside of 60 yards so far. Some duplex combinations can sort of start bumping into each other especially with different densities and sizes. It is also a question of my ability but 50 yards is a long shot for me on pheasant. Pass shooting geese due to the larger target and straighter flight I can extend that some.

With the smaller size shot you can cut the pay load and save that way. You gain economy and velocity.

Even on turkey the advantages of a duplex load are a trade off. With the extra dense loads I would rather have more pellet count. The only exception is if they are mostly close shots and it is tearing up the birds too much. When the hunting is good I like to pass on long or questionable shots and extend the length of the hunt. If they are flushing crazy long I usually look elsewhere rather than take chances wounding birds.

Also if with out dogs it gets difficult to find the birds at extended ranges.


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No matter the shot type. I would still pick larger size pellets. Two main reasons, Bigger holes kill better, I value my teeth. Then complete pass throughs are more likely. Two big holes kill real well.


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I question how quickly the smaller TSS kills? My experience is limited to Turkeys and Waterfowl. Do you get many runners with the small shot?


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RickBin Offline OP
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We're going to find out here in 5-6 weeks when pheasant season opens in Mex!


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Rick - TSS shines at distance. If most of your shots will be 45-70 yards then TSS is your answer. BUT, for these longer distances, you WILL NEED to have a MUCH TIGHTER CHOKE... this will ruin you at close to moderate ranges.. Most all the pheasants I kill are close and a MOD/IMP choked double gun works perfectly. my .02

I forgot you are in Kali... I still don't think I'd use TSS...

Last edited by Sasha_and_Abby; 09/10/19.

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https://rogerssportinggoods.us1.lis...1d554&id=751d7ab220&e=c38ed70cdf

Right now Rogers sporting goods have their Federal Heavyweight Magshok loads (HW15) on a truckload sale for 14.99 a box...
You can either buy them and use them straight or, unload them and use the shot in a duplex load.

The cost is close to the cost of the shot alone, I get 10 gauge (I have a 10) so 2 oz per shell isn’t bad.

IIRC weight per oz

TSS = 18
HW 15
HW 13
Lead = 11

Last edited by Spotshooter; 09/10/19.

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