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Campfire Outfitter
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Not sure what the point of your posts are..
My posts are far more detailed with facts and valuable references than the waffle conjecture some have posted. His experience in actual IFR flight, in IMC conditions, was almost zero.
But he DID have a pretty decent amount of night flight time in the Saratoga, which is a bit surprising.
. A pretty decent amount of NFT in the Saratoga?
No question JFK's pilot expertise was not high, and certainly not high in the Saratoga, .
Are you saying 9.4 hrs of NFT in a Saratoga is not a 'pretty decent amount' ?
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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What we can safely conclude about Jnr at the time of accident -
He could not competently handle VMC/VFR
He was not qualified to go IMC/IFR
He has limited time/experience in his new aircraft ;
36 hours total , of which 9.4 hours were at night. with approx. 3 hours of that flight time without a CFI,
and about 0.8 hour of that time was flown at night, which included one night landing.
Typo in the bold print? ... I expect you'd like to revisit that. Not sure what the point of your posts are. Copy and paste of the FAR/AIM rules for VFR... yes? And your conclusion...? No question JFK's pilot expertise was not high, and certainly not high in the Saratoga, which is high-performance complex single. As Schappert points out in the video I referenced above, JFK's hours had been spread out over a pretty long stretch. His experience in actual IFR flight, in IMC conditions, was almost zero. But he DID have a pretty decent amount of night flight time in the Saratoga, which is a bit surprising. Nonetheless... the decisions which JFK made en route to Martha's Vineyard that day were not necessarily bad, if taken individually. But the collective and cumulative effect was catastrophic. says the guy who let me fly his plane..... just kidding DOC i trust your judgement.
God bless Texas-----------------------
Old 300
I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull
Its not how you pick the booger..
but where you put it !!
Roger V Hunter
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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He could not competently handle VMC/VFR
.
Typo in the bold print? ... I expect you'd like to revisit that. Why the need to revisit it? a number of verifiable valid weather reports for the region (at time of crash) and further testimony from Marthas Wineyard [MVY] ATCT staff/manager (as provided to NTSB) indicate conditions were more than ample to comply with VMC and suitable for a competent qualified VFR pilot. Actual visibility reported at 10-12 miles by MYV ATCT , conditions near the crash site were - clear skies at or below 12,000 feet; vis. 10 miles while JFK Jnr crashed his bird 7 nautical miles off Marthas Vineyard.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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No question JFK's pilot expertise was not high, and certainly not high in the Saratoga, . Are you saying 9.4 hrs of NFT in a Saratoga is not a 'pretty decent amount' ? Proportionally to his total hours in that aircraft. Which were not adequate, in my estimation, for him to be taking on passengers on an evening flight with the potential of a night landing. Which I’m sure you’re aware requires him to have had three fullstop night landings logged in the previous 3 months. Which he had not.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Proportionally to his total hours in that aircraft. Which were not adequate, in my estimation, for him to be taking on passengers
on an evening flight with the potential of a night landing.
Which I’m sure you’re aware requires him to have had three fullstop night landings logged in the previous 3 months. Which he had not.
But he DID have a pretty decent amount of night flight time in the Saratoga, which is a bit surprising.
. according to you 9.4 hrs NFT is a pretty decent amount.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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,
He could not competently handle VMC/VFR
.
Typo in the bold print? ... I expect you'd like to revisit that. Why the need to revisit it? a number of verifiable valid weather reports for the region (at time of crash) and further testimony from Marthas Wineyard [MVY] ATCT staff/manager (as provided to NTSB) indicate conditions were more than ample to comply with VMC and suitable for a competent VFR pilot. Actual visibility reported at 10-12 miles by MYV ATCT , conditions near the crash site were - clear skies at or below 12,000 feet; vis. 10 miles while JFK Jnr crashed his bird 7 nautical miles off Marthas Vineyard. How many times have you flown VFR into hazy twilight conditions in a sea coast environment? Once? Twice? Ever? I fly in such conditions regularly and believe you me, it can get hairy really fast. I make sure I’ve got my instrument scan going and my GPS and nav radios up and going before I descend into this soup. These can be a very tricky meteorological conditions. It looks like VFR from the ground, but visual references such as ground landmarks and the oceanic horizon can be lost from the pilot’s view in the air. Inexperienced pilots can get seriously disoriented in short order, almost as badly as if they have flown into IMC. Even good experienced VFR pilots have been fooled by such conditions if unfamiliar and unprepared. Which JFK was, and it cost him his life.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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You can speculate all you want about what Jnr encountered, what we do know is that the relevant current weather reports did not support
that he ran into extra difficult conditions.
then we have this testimony from the MVY ATCT manager to the NTSB;
“The visibility, present weather, and sky condition at the approximate time of the accident was probably a little better
than what was being reported. I say this because I remember aircraft on visual approaches saying they had the airport
in sight between 10 and 12 miles out. I do recall being able to see those aircraft and I do remember seeing the stars
out that night...To the best of my knowledge, the ASOS was working as advertised that day with no reported problems
or systems log errors.”
{regarding above}: Aircraft on visual approach to MVY ATCT said they could see the airport from 10 - 12 miles out.
yet JFK Jnr crashed his bird 7 nautical miles off Marthas Vineyard.
But you want your internet speculation to trump such a witness statement to NTSB .
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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according to you 9.4 hrs NFT is a pretty decent amount.
Out of 36 hours in type, that is a pretty decent training quota. How many night hours have you flown in the last year? Out of what total hours? My log book says I’ve logged 21 hours night flying in the past year, out of 173 total hours, all in Mooney 231 or 252 aircraft. I consider that a decent proportion and I’m legal and current to fly passengers at night. Edited to add:. I just rechecked the numbers, and those given in Such argazer’s post are erroneous. JFK Jr had 37 hours logged in the Saratoga, and only 0.8 hours of that total was in night conditions. This is not what I would call an adequate or “decent” proportion of night flying experience.
Last edited by DocRocket; 07/22/19.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Starman’s flight expertise probably comes from watching planes through his telescope. He just likes to argue and act like he’s an eggspurt on the internet.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston
Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Ranger
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Stargazer, it ain’t speculation. Watch the YouTube video I referenced earlier and you will get more information about the actual meteorological conditions being experienced by pilots that night than you can find by cutting and pasting out of an online report. Since you aren’t a pilot, I don’t expect you to understand the nuances, but the broad brushstrokes should be apparent enough to grasp.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Since you aren’t a pilot, I don’t expect you to understand the nuances,. Over 20 yrs commercial in multi-million dollar turbine aircraft but I aint a pilot? and now you are telling me to ignore NTSB and go to YouTube to get an education?
Edited to add:. I just rechecked the numbers, and those given in Such argazer’s post are erroneous.
JFK Jr had 37 hours logged in the Saratoga, and only 0.8 hours of that total was in night conditions.
.
My data for Jnrs Saratoga hrs is directly from the NTSB full report...evidently you have NOT read such. quote].... .."The pilot's estimated flight time in the accident airplane was about 36 hours, of which 9.4 hours were at night. Approximately 3 hours
of that flight time was without a CFI on board, and about 0.8 hour of that time was flown at night, which included a night landing."In other words...of 36 hrs, he flew only 3 hrs without a CFI and only 0.8 hrs (out of 9.4 hrs night), without a CFI. basicallly, the vast majority of his total Saratoga hrs (33 from 36) and NFT (8.6 from 9.4) were with the assistance of his CFI. [ie;] he had 3 hrs total solo , and that 3 hrs included 0.8 hrs night solo. TWO THINGS are clear; 1. You don't read NTSB reports 2. You don't understand NTSB reports.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Junior was just too arrogant, that's basically what killed him and two others.
Didn't have a clue about flying in those conditions. Did it anyway. This. He also had too much plane. His flight instructor questioned his choice of airplanes when he bought it. Jr. didn't see any problem with it. I don't know much but it doesn't seem to be a good idea to grow into your plane.
Fight fire, save lives, laugh in the face of danger.
Stupid always finds a way.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Many a "experienced" pilot has been found out not to be.....usually too late. He wasn't... No clue about instrument flyng.. Thats not exactly true. March 1999, Kennedy passed his instrument-airplane written exam April 1999 he returned to FSI to start training for rating. He had completed 12 of the 25 lesson plans. His primary instrument instructor at FSI indicated his progression was normal and that he grasped all of the basic skills needed to complete the course with the exception of VOR and ADF orientation. The CFI stated that the pilot's basic instrument flying skills and simulator work were excellent The CFI stated Kennedy “had trouble managing multiple tasks while flying, which he felt was normal for the pilot’s level of experience.” What we can safely conclude about Jnr at the time of accident - He could not competently handle VMC/VFR conditions. He was not appropriately qualified to go IMC/IFR He had limited time/experience in his new aircraft ; 36 hours total ,of which 9.4 hours were at night, approx. only 3 hours of that flight time without CFI, and about 0.8 hour of that time was flown at night, which included one night landing. He did not excercise his available options that would have permitted a much safer flight. The fact he bought the farm in reasonably good WX and at night, clearly substantiates the fact he had no clue. Besides, an argument can be made there is no such things as "night VFR".. You basically need an instrument card and visibility criteria is of course higher. According to FAR 91.157, if operating under a Special VFR clearance at night, you must have an instrument rating, an instrument-equipped airplane, 1 mile visibility, be able to remain clear of clouds, and have a Special VFR clearance from air traffic control. The fact as you state he was not (sic) appropriately qualified to fly in IMC conditions killed him and his passengers.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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We flew to Marthas Vineyards and landed at the grass strip. On a hazy hot day you couldn't pick out the horizon in broad daylight. We were land lovers, stayed above land and crossed water at the narrowest point.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Like Jorge said... 'He had no clue'
Aviation can be deadly when you don't know what it is that you don't know!
Night VFR - questionable at best
Night VFR over water - it better be Crystal Clear with the moon in the right spot......
Add to that a group of 'talkative' passengers, a bum leg, likely Instrument Panel lights turned up too bright, combined with little to no visible horizon....
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
The pilot's failure to maintain control of the airplane during a descent over water at night, which was a result of spatial disorientation. Factors in the accident were haze, and the dark night.
Last edited by muffin; 07/23/19.
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
( . Y . )
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Over 20 yrs commercial in multi-million dollar turbine aircraft but I aint a pilot?
.
no s h i t? what airframe(s)? any military experience? You probably have lots more hours than I do.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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He would have been your ‘Justin Trudeau’.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
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Campfire Tracker
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Over 20 yrs commercial in multi-million dollar turbine aircraft but I aint a pilot?
.
no s h i t? what airframe(s)? any military experience? You probably have lots more hours than I do. Bet him a box of bullets that he's lying about flying jets Jorge, he'll most certainly welch on the bet. I'll bet his flight time is all in the passenger cabin.
Mark
NRA Life Member
Anytime anyone kicks cancers azz is a good day!
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Oh The Drama!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Hey, I'm genuinely interested, especially what defines "turbine aircraft", I'm guessing it means jets and turbo props with no recip time,,,
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Regular
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You can't ignore this guys take on things especially the part where he says he read the report and saw the photographs. Bill or William Cooper Here is a 6 min version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX3NENP9vI4and here is the 50 min version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7-5DhEfkZ0
Last edited by granitestate1; 07/23/19.
RUMs are like woman in Stiletto heals, you know they are going to put you in the poor house, but that has never stopped anyone from pursuing them.
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