Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Fireforming .400 Whelen

This is my first post--so hello everyone!

Jumping straight into it...

I have an old sporter built on a Springfield 03A3 action, rebored/chambered to 400 Whelen by JES Reboring (Jesse Ocumpaugh ). Really nice work and FAST!!!! I'm sending him a nice old Mauser in 8MM to transform into a 9.3x62.

But I digress...

I asked Jesse what "size" of Whelen he chambers for, and he replied "standard 400 Whelen". He further advised me to neck up 35 Whelen, trim to 2.455, then fireform and full-length size, trim to 2.450.

Easy Peasy

However, when I called CH4D they said I had to have the dimensions, chamber cast or fireformed cases (they also said they've no 400 dies on the shelves and I'd have a 24 month turn around--yes TWO YEARS). I'm gonna ask Jesse again, but what I can do now--which is more fun--is to fireform some cases. On Jesse's advice, I got some 35 Whelen ammo which I'm about to pull the bullets on (I had a 35 Whelen, so I got the toys;-). I have some 300 Grn .412 cast from Buffalo Bullets, I'll poke around and see what charge I should use to make sure the shoulder sets.

I read somewhere the correct die was a Ch4D 400 Whelen H (the H I assume stands for James Howe, who built the first guns for Col. Whelen according to Michael Petrov using a .458 shoulder). But CH4D doesn't have an "H" die. I was a little blindsided by all this, as Jesse is the only person I know reboring/chambering in 400 Whelen and CHD4 the only place for dies-- I thought surely they'd know of each other.

SO, to ask the most obvious question, how should I proceed? My experience with reloading is entirely centered around RCBS and Lee dies that supply me with everything--so not having the 400 Whelen dies has me at a bit of a loss. What do I need to expand the neck to receive a cast bullet, other than a 400 Whelen die?

Thanks in advance!

Ronn

A Redding tapered expander. .416 tapered.. This gets us from .358 to .416 at the VERY MOUTH of the case ONLY.

The ball will need put on a Redding '06 based case die, with the stem screwed ALL the way down in the die (you ain't gonna get it through th ,30, 280, 270 hole at the top). The oversized expander will need screwed on where the case enters the die. To tighten the ball, thread the stem all the way out, pull up till it sticks in the shoulder tight and turn right until snug. To remove the ball without tools, do the opposite until loose/falls out. Take the decapping pin out while your at it.

Screw it back in a bit and center, getting as much of the hull in the die supported. Your not sizing, just using it to expand just enough to get that bullet started or get another expander of appropriate dimensions in there. Go too far and your going to need the die you don't have right now. A .41 Mag expander in a larger handgun die (45 ACP is the '06 diameter) would ruin less cases than trying to make the lead do the rest of the expanding.

The .41 Mag seater, within reason, will seat your bullets (seat to land jam, headspace off the bullet) and with the plug removed, take out the belling you have to get the case to chamber.

I use the Redding expander, but let it fully enter down to the case neck, then FL size to a snug fit. The ,416 expander will take the 35 Whelen from '06 shoulder dimensions to beyond 400 Whelen basic, so if you get the expander in too far, a .41 Mag die might not "fix" it, so be careful!

Thinking a bit, a 41 Mag or 44 Mag carbide die ring could be used to neck re-size any mild issues and work in place of not having FL dies once fireformed; you will have to try until you get FL dies. Stay off the shoulder after fireforming.

PS: the CH dies won't get you from 35 to .411 with its expander its too big; that's why I use the Redding method.

There's other options of course. Some .411/.358 heeled bullets would help.
That's what I came up with. I might actually try it, just to make sure it would actually work!

I think it's reasonable for JES to provide you with the chamber dimensions to in turn provide to CH4D. As I'm sure you know the .400 Whelen is a headspace nightmare, and I understand CH4D not wanting to make dies without the dimensions.

My turnaround with CH4D was more like a month but for a simple .50-110. Two years seems insane. It sounds like they don't want the work. Whidden might be another option, and they're easy to work with.

There is both a 400 Whelen and a 400 Brown Whelen listed on CH4D's list of dies. The first is probably what you want.

Never had one iota of headspace issue with the CH 400 Whelen dies. Had them in two weeks, without sending any dimensions....it does sound like they don't want the work.

BTW, Grafs has QualCart .400 Whelen headstamped basic brass in stock. Seems like a lot of work could be avoided there.

That just means your dies and chamber matched. I've found at least 3 different theories about what the shoulder diameter should be, so I don't begrudge the die maker asking.

Not really....the basic brass, depending on lot, may require neck turning and may be larger at the base, also requiring turning down and the trim to length as well.

You're not necking it down an appreciable amount - neck turning should not be required.

If it's bigger in the base than your chamber, you don't have a .400 Whelen. You have something somewhat like a .400 Whelen. Because the .400 Whelen was designed to use -06 basic brass.

Neck turning shouldn't be required, it MAY be required, but dimensionally Qual-Carts brass is a crap shoot. Since I have about 300 pieces, I thought I'd share the possible pitfalls of using them.

Basic 06 cases should have the same diameter pressure ring diameter as.....a 30-06. The point of their use is not having the tapered case and smaller shoulder of finished '06 cases, so a trip though the FL die for a snug chambering is the idea. Some of these bases did fall within spec, some didn't and 400 FL dies and even a modified '06 small base die would not correct the oversized ones.

Their .411 Hawk stuff is out of spec in this regard as well...

Thanks for all the input--I think I have a strong start here (already reached out to LEE for a custom collet die set). I'll keep you all posted on my progress.

Ronn

I had the same conversation with CH4D,... almost. they made my 400 Whelen does and they arrived in a few weeks. The question about dimensions is the key. If you need a standard 400 Whelen, (like the Petrov drawing) you may be fine, If your barrel maker has a ramer with different dimension, then you move into the realm of custom dies and a long wait. Suggest you turn the situation around, Inquire which dies are standard and ream your chamber to those. I am betting CH4D uses the Petrov.

I'm pretty sure JES uses the Petrov reamer for his 400's.

Here's what I did when I first had my 400 Whelen.I was waiting on dies and wanted to get it shooting. I got a bunch of match military 30-06, annealed the necks and shoulder area and fireformed it with cream of wheat. I used about 17 grains of Bullseye, filled it to the top of the neck and jammed a crayon in the neck and snapped it off. That compressed the COW a little and the crayon was perfect for the 30 caliber neck. Out of 100 rounds I think I had 8 failures. The rest came out fine.

I used a 41 magnum die to neck size them after fireforming. I used a lock collar on the ram to set the amount of neck allowed in the die so as not to set the shoulder back.

I did get some of the early Quality Cartridge 400 Whelen basic brass. I had to use a 30-06 die to slightly reduce the case mouth so it would start in to the 41 die. After that I sized them with the lock ring on the ram in the 41 mag die the same as the fireformed military brass. The QC brass i got was very uniform but I have heard of some issues with later brass. I also found quite a bit of old, unfired Norma 30-06 basic brass and made 400 Whelen out of it. When I found that, I already had the CH4D dies.

I'd order the CH4D dies after sending them some fired cases. That's what I did. They confirmed it was the Petrov case, which I knew and they had two sets on the shelf. I bought both of them. That was ten years ago. One for me and one for the smith who did my 400 as he also had one but no dies. Honestly you can get by with the 41 mag dies for a long time while you wait for the dies.

0.4540" sounds right to me. You need to reduce the body taper to that of an '06 AI, or thereabouts.

What are the other two "theoretical" diameters?

I'd want to start with '06 basic/cylindrical brass if at all possible.

JMHO

I've seen shoulder diameters on drawings of .454, .458 and .461.

Read about the 400 Whelen at the Michael Petrov website. I think Michael came up with 0.458". Be well. Rusty