Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Bullet diameter for big game?

Its called feelings! The problem is facts don't care about feelings. Headstamps are important to hunters much in the same way global warming is important to a liberal


Trystan

On really larger game bullet diameter matters if you want brake large shoulder bone rather than simply shooting a hole through the bone.

Metric [bleep] loads of caribou and deer are linked in Alaska every year with 223s and even 22LR.

Gunnery, Gunnery, Gunnery, and all that.

I see that 1AK is not surprisingly in Alaska. I can't speak for him but the one time I hunted there the species I was after wasn't the only consideration in firearm selection. Especially when we got back down to the river with backpacks full of meat and 10-lb. piles of bear sh** everywhere.


I know it's rare but getting experience in how a .223 handles a big bear that's coming instead of going is not something I'd want to gain much experience with.

I kind of fall under this theory, bigger diameter kills better, higher velocity kills farther.... but bullet construction, BC and turret twisting have changed things.

I will take shot placement over any of the above.

I have shot a few animals with a 64gr Sierra out of 222, truckloads with a 53gr TSX out of a 22-250, even more with 270's, been in on more than a few dozen elk from 243 to 375, African critters from 300 H&H to 404 Jeffery.

I do not remember ever having a rodeo due to head stamps or bullets, but more than one from poor shot placement. Shoot the biggest (or smallest) caliber you are comfortable with, put the bullet in the right spot and there will be no rodeo.

The sweet spot is between .278 and .290

When I decided to try a .223 for deer to see how it performed on them I did my homework. I compared it to a .243 with the same bullets to get a base line that it was probably going to penetrate as well. I also tested expansion at velocities to be sure it was going to open well. When I was satisfied it would both penetrate and expand well I tried it on deer. After it disconnected the heart on it's way through the first couple of deer and wrecked the lungs impressively. It made evry bit a comparable hole to a 30-30 all the way through and bone did not seem to affect them. The first deer was a 200 lb dressed animal. the second 150 lbs. After that I quit worrying about whether they were enough gun with that little 53 grain bullet.

I wouldn't use that bullet on moose or elk, much less big bears. But, If I had need of doing so I have absolutely no doubt I could make it work well. Given a 243 with 85 grain TSXs or a choice of a 30-06 with 150 grain or larger cup and core bullets, I would take that TSX every time. The much deeper penetration and much straighter line penetration when combined with more or less equal wound channel damage makes them better because when I point them where I want them to go through the do it much better than cup and core bullets.

I shot cow elk with a Rem 700 loaded with 100g partitions, 41.0g of IMR 4350

elk flopped

Like everyone else I am just sharing my thoughts which are based on my 54 years of hunting Alaska. I am well aware of the .223 and it's frequent use on Alaska's game animals, especially by rural Alaskan's who live in big game country year around. I don't expect to change anyone's mind just because I don't embrace it for my Alaskan hunting. My wife's cousin used to be married to the dog musher George Attla. She killed several black bears at their Yukon River fish camp and used a .22 rimfire.

When I came to Alaska in 1965 the .270 Win. and 30-06 were the two calibers of choice. There were a few 300 H&H'S and Springfield's converted to .308 Norma and the brown and polar bear hunting guides that I was acquainted with had Mod. 70's in .375 H&H for big bear hunts. I think old Don DeHart had a 7mm Mag. for his interior hunts.

My Dad was the odd man out, as he always used his old Mod. 70 in .264 Win. His load was the 140 grain Partition and a case full of surplus H4831 that he dumped in with and old Lee powder cup. He had used the rifle on his western hunts for 3 years prior and winter fox hunts in Iowa and had complete faith in it, the caliber and load.

Me and three friends went to Montague Island to hunt our little island deer. One friend carried a .35 Whelen, another a .270 and another a .223 Rem. I carried a 30-06 stuffed with 165 grain Partitions. We all killed deer with one shot. We never saw any big bears as it was late November and the salmon runs were over and the berries were mostly gone. As I was hunting I remembered the 9 foot brown bear hide in my friends dad's house that came from Montague. Old Maynard "Perk" Perkins and Duncan Gilchrist killed the bear at about 20 feet and it took several shots before it stayed down. Perk was shooting his nice old Mauser .308 Norma and 200 grain Partitions and I forget what Duncan had. They were deer hunting and it was late November and neither one of these experienced hunters expected to see any bears out.

If it works out I would like to hunt a Coues deer with the Tikka Superlite 6.5 Creed I bought last year. If I was living in an area with abundant white tails and liberal seasons I am sure a .223 would kill them. In the 50's we lived over by Spirit Lake in Washington State and my Dad was doing shop work for a timber company. He said we were almost broke and he took a couple of the small deer from the kitchen window at about 20 feet with a .22 rim fire.

Like the old ivory hunter Bell proved long ago, shot placement and penetration is where killing power starts. Any way, we all get to choose what we use and have faith in. Good hunting guys!

Cool stories 1Ak. Thanks for sharing.

2nd that. Very cool stories.

Great story, couple things, I've got a book by Duncan Gilchrist, great read. Another my grandad retired from Weyerhaeuser, up kid valley below spirit lake, worked for em from the late 50's til early 80's..

That line of reasoning works both ways. I don't know for sure that dog [bleep] tastes bad, but I'm not going to try it myself to make sure I'm right.

Don’t make Form post the many pics of the animals he’s harvested with his 223 Win....Trust me, if there’s members who missed seeing them, I can attest that they were very memorable...It left no question a 223 Win. loaded with a quality bullet will kill with as much lethality on a game animal I’ve stuck with a 7mag or larger.

Surprised my uneducated azz immediately!

I would only caution on the quality of the bullet being of importance, and not to just flinging sub-par projectiles, especially if breaking axles is your game plan. 😎

I am mostly a moose and caribou hunter with the occasional bear tossed in. Every fall my 70 year old wife and me moose hunt together for about a month if needed. We often sit on water holes in the evening and shots are often under 50 yards. I have had the thrill of having a brown bear come in when calling moose and don't want to go through that again. That is the down side of calling moose when the light is fading in the pucker brush. I want my .338 in my hands when doing that. I also like my 30-06 for hunting caribou and also trust it for moose and bears. But, if a big bear is close I will always vote for the .338 Winny over my 30-06.

When the light is fading and a moose is in the thick stuff I will try to hit part of the shoulder to keep him from moving in to the dark timber after the shot.

We always pray before and during and after each hunt. One of the prayers is that I never wound and loose a big game animal. So far God has blessed and answered our prayers. It is not because of my excellent marksmanship. It is because of choosing what I believe is the right tool for the job, getting as close as possible and picking our shot. Life is full of choices and this works for me.

I'd love to see a few pictures of the Moose and Brown bear you've taken with the TSM in the 223

I'd want a .338 too in that situation.

Just for the record..........



https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/be...d-record-grizzly-and-more/#axzz5vj3q7CXH

Watched an elephant go down from a single shot from a M16 with a similar shot placement. That said, Can is not quite the same as Should.

Will say for certain I've killed tons of critters with .22s, but have steadily drifted to larger bores of late. They be more fun.

I think it's hard to beat a 7mm or .308" bullet, from a 308 Win sized case or bigger, for all-around big game.

I know a couple of younger Alaskans who have killed several moose and grizzlies with .223's, partly because they grew up in the bush so weren't exposed to Internet sites, so didn't know they couldn't. Was introduced by Phil Shoemaker, who can vouch for them, if he cares to. But often Phil is a long way from Internet access, and too busy to bother.

After doing some big game hunting here and there, which also involved watching a lot of other people shooting various animals, I have become less convinced that bigger bullets make all that much difference for most hunting, as long as the bullets expand and penetrate the vitals. Among other things have seen elk of all sizes crumpled by lung shots with bullets fired from cartridges not only considered inadequate by many Campfire members, but some cartridges illegal for elk in more than one state. The quickest-deadest bull moose I've killed was taken with a lung shot from the dreaded .270 Winchester, and the hunter didn't even use a magic monolithic, but a 150-grain Nosler Partition at a boring 2850 fps.

I also know a woman who, on her very first big game hunt, killed three African plains-game animals--an impala, gemsbok and blue wildebeest--with one shot each from a .243 Winchester. Many Internet experts think the .30-06 with monolithics is "adequate" for gemsbok and wildebeest, but a .338 is better. She used a .243 Winchester with 85-grain Partitions, and I suspect she thinks the .243 is one of those really powerful cartridges often mentioned here.

Also just got word from another friend (who's on a safari right now) that his wife took her first animal, a zebra stallion with one shot from the dreaded 6.5 Creedmoor, and not only didn't use a monolithic but not even a Nosler Partition. Instead the bullet was a 143-grain Hornady ELD-X. But of course we ALL knows that's impossible....