24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,724
J
JoeBob Online Content OP
Campfire Outfitter
OP Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
J
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,724
They’re coming whether you want them or not. I propose two solutions that I believe would take care of most abuses while allowing them to function as intended.

The first is to require a bond. If you make a accusation against someone meant to invoke a red flag action, you must provide a bond that you forfeit if the Defendant wins his case at the fourteen day hearing. I would propose $500.00. That amount is high enough that most people wouldn’t want to throw it away just to harass someone, while it isn’t high enough to serve as a serious bar to someone reporting someone they honestly believed to be immediately dangerous.

The second condition is to make the accuser liable for the defendant’s reasonable and necessary attorney’s fees needed to defend himself if he prevails and the Red Flag Order is not granted at the fourteen day hearing.

I think that the realization that a false and malicious claim made for the purpose of harassment could cause you to have to pay five or ten grand out of your pocket in pretty short order would mitigate a lot of potential abuse while still providing an avenue to deal with someone who might actually have some bad issues.

BP-B2

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,771
H
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
H
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,771
Red Flag laws will be the same as Domestic Violence complaints. No judge is going to deny one and catch the blame for not taking someone’s guns and a shooting happening.

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,724
J
JoeBob Online Content OP
Campfire Outfitter
OP Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
J
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,724
Originally Posted by hunter4623
Red Flag laws will be the same as Domestic Violence complaints. No judge is going to deny one and catch the blame for not taking someone’s guns and a shooting happening.



It will really depend on the jurisdiction. Around here, if a protective order is opposed and contested, it is seldom granted.

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,753
N
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
N
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,753
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by hunter4623
Red Flag laws will be the same as Domestic Violence complaints. No judge is going to deny one and catch the blame for not taking someone’s guns and a shooting happening.



It will really depend on the jurisdiction. Around here, if a protective order is opposed and contested, it is seldom granted.

How many Emergeny ROs (I’m uncertain of what y’all call them) are turned down? That’s a better comparison ‘in the moment.


�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
G
Gus Offline
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
my neighbor *might* drink and drive. i'm not positive.

one thing about red flag laws, once the camel get's it's nose under the tent, then it's endless.

true, in random and rare cases they might have an effect. but lot's of individual rights will be forfeited.

we can blame it on the liberals, on the city-people, on the culture where folks are now living as a collective group.


IC B2

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,940
T
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,940
Originally Posted by hunter4623
Red Flag laws will be the same as Domestic Violence complaints. No judge is going to deny one and catch the blame for not taking someone’s guns and a shooting happening.


Both need overturning by the courts. There's no clearer violation of due process in the history of US law.

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 40,179
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 40,179
How many rapes have to occur before we cut off our dicks?


Son of a liberal: " What did you do in the War On Terror, Daddy?"

Liberal father: " I fought the Americans, along with all the other liberals."

MOLON LABE





Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,594
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,594
For the judges issuing these orders, there will be no downside to granting the order. There will be no incentive to deny one and the judges will effectively be unaccountable.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,454
V
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
V
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,454
A $500 bond would be considered discrimination against people of color and the poor.
Just saying....

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,525
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,525
Red Flag is BS. Everyone seems to miss the point of the Laughtenberg act.
It was to make sure that people under restraining orders for Domestic violence or had a conviction of misdemeanor DV that they would no longer be able to purchase or possess firearms. Problem was that the military, police and the courts would not send all the information to the data base. Too damn many cops and soldiers would have been booted for not being able to handle a firearm so they just let it slide. The Texas church shooting was a good example of failure.
Secondly as long as schools and local police fail in their duty to get bad teenagers adjucated ( Florida school shooting prime example ) and entered into the data base. The Ohio shooter had his juvenile record sealed and wiped clean even though there was enough LE contact to put his name on the no buy list.



Swifty
IC B3

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,771
H
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
H
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,771
Originally Posted by NH K9
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by hunter4623
Red Flag laws will be the same as Domestic Violence complaints. No judge is going to deny one and catch the blame for not taking someone’s guns and a shooting happening.



It will really depend on the jurisdiction. Around here, if a protective order is opposed and contested, it is seldom granted.

How many Emergeny ROs (I’m uncertain of what y’all call them) are turned down? That’s a better comparison ‘in the moment.


I spent 20 yrs in LE in South Jersey and don’t ever recall a TRO (temporary restraining order) being denied. The domestic violence case workers know exactly how to coach the “victim” to get one issued. The system was put in place to protect victims but quickly became a way to get the upper hand in a divorce, custody battle or just getting the boyfriend or husband thrown out of the house/apartment for the weekend.

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,701
K
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
K
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,701
Problem is the stacked deck. Colorado's will be me against a po'ed wife, policemen, DA, doctor, judge; with whatever help I can afford. This goes for almost any personal dispute without evidence (black eye on wife) . The other thing is it leaves kitchen knives, cars, lye, hammers out of the equation.
Add in the rough handling reported on guns. How do they know what I have in the truck, at my work, brothers house so they will want an inventory before hand the inventory will also aid in the mandated background check
It has already passed here, and coming soon in your state.

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,557
K
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
K
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,557
Several weeks ago I started a thread posing the question, how will we know when it is "time"?


Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester

"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."

WS

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,283
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,283
Originally Posted by kaywoodie
Several weeks ago I started a thread posing the question, how will we know when it is "time"?

John has a long mustache, John has a long mustache.


Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,283
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,283
Besides the outrage at completely ignoring the 5th and 14th Amendments what really scares the sh*t out of me is the potential for rampant abuse by anyone with a grudge.

Anybody can make a claim about anybody else and the subject of the claim has no idea one is even being made and has no recourse to confront his accuser nor defend himself. The first indication that a "red flag" has been raised is when the police come to your door (or flat out knock it down) with a predetermined mindset "this guy has guns and someone thinks he's dangerous enough to have them taken away, so be ready to shoot at the slightest hint of a threat." I can't think of a more perfect storm for tragedy.

Very little pisses me off any more, I've seen so much political bullscheiss and blatant abuse of power that I'm almost enured to it, but this really does get my blood up.



Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,771
H
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
H
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,771
Judges routinely violate the 4th Amendment in regards to weapon seizures due to the issuance of a TRO. I’ve had this conversation with Judges, Chiefs, Sheriff and more lawyers than I can count. Search Warrants require specificity and particularity. Basically a clear description of the weapon and where it is located. The judges around here check off a box that the search warrant is approved and in the description line they write “any and all firearms”. The next line is the address of the warrant. The next line is the description of the specific location of the weapon ( I.e. master bedroom closet). The judges don’t fill this section out.

Once again, no judge is going to deny a search warrant for weapons in relation to a TRO. They aren’t going to limit the scope of the search in specificity or particularity. They don’t want to have a finger pointed at them so they just twist the law however they see fit. It’s disgusting.

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,557
K
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
K
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,557
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Originally Posted by kaywoodie
Several weeks ago I started a thread posing the question, how will we know when it is "time"?

John has a long mustache, John has a long mustache.


👍👍👍👍


Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester

"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."

WS

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,525
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,525
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Originally Posted by kaywoodie
Several weeks ago I started a thread posing the question, how will we know when it is "time"?

John has a long mustache, John has a long mustache.


Exactly 😀



Swifty
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,940
T
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,940
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Besides the outrage at completely ignoring the 5th and 14th Amendments what really scares the sh*t out of me is the potential for rampant abuse by anyone with a grudge.

Anybody can make a claim about anybody else and the subject of the claim has no idea one is even being made and has no recourse to confront his accuser nor defend himself. The first indication that a "red flag" has been raised is when the police come to your door (or flat out knock it down) with a predetermined mindset "this guy has guns and someone thinks he's dangerous enough to have them taken away, so be ready to shoot at the slightest hint of a threat." I can't think of a more perfect storm for tragedy.

Very little pisses me off any more, I've seen so much political bullscheiss and blatant abuse of power that I'm almost enured to it, but this really does get my blood up.


Exactly.

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,940
T
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,940
Originally Posted by Swifty52
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Originally Posted by kaywoodie
Several weeks ago I started a thread posing the question, how will we know when it is "time"?

John has a long mustache, John has a long mustache.


Exactly 😀

Can someone fill the rest of us in. What's that mean?

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
490 members (17CalFan, 10gaugeman, 1Longbow, 160user, 10ring1, 1lesfox, 45 invisible), 2,198 guests, and 1,008 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,596
Posts18,398,171
Members73,815
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.145s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.8990 MB (Peak: 1.0545 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 12:17:03 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS