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I know, I know, accuracy topic has been beaten to death, but for about 10-15 years now I've been reading gun articles that repeatedly state how 'out of the box' accuracy on new rifles has consistently improved over the years. New rifles are so much better than the old ones is a consistent mantra and we should EXPECT better than the holy grail of 1 moa from a rifle for its first 3 shot group at 100 and be able to down a deer or elk at 700 yards by just adding the latest whizbang $2000 scope, of course most of these articles are trying to sell me a firearm and accessories. When reading more the technical (and realistic) articles from Rifle magazine, Gun Tests etc there are a considerable number of rifles (regardless of brand and cost) and load combination that don't break the magical 1 moa barrier, in fact some of them are quite a ways from it. I understand that due to limited time and resources not every rifle is tested with different loads or much 'tuning'. I've seen many articles on Savaga Axis rifles to mention just one that supposedly will shoot groups well under an 1" with just about any ammo apparently. Just wondering where the reality lies, and I'm sure there is more to it.
My most accurate rifle is a lowly Marlin 917 with a $100 Simmons scope on it that will shoot right at 1" at 100 yards. My 30 year old Remington 700 mountain rifle (with a $100 Cabela's brand scope on it) will shoot about 1 1/2" with inexpensive Remington Core Lokts - although I'm not sure if its the gun or me holding it back, but for my purposes that's much better than required for the (at most) 200 yard shots that I might have at a whitetail.

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The reason new rifles in general shoot better is that manufacturing techniques have vastly improved due to the use of robotics and machinery. Also design tools such as cad and system modeling programs have refined the designs. Finally, there is more testing done today to figure out what works. This results in more consistent parts, assembly, and refinement.


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Mister Call is right.

You have to understand a bit of the history. It used to be that you needed to pay a premium and do quite a bit of work to get to the kind of accuracy we are seeing with out-of-the-box offerings now. It used to be that. . .

1) Ammo was kind of hit-and-miss. Lot-to-lot consistency was not what it is now. It used to be if you found something that worked, you'd have to buy as much of that lot as you could. That's one of the reasons reloading became popular; it allowed you to build more consistent ammo.

2) Optics were not nearly as good. It used to be your scope would go off-kilter every whipstitch, and it would take a box or two of ammo every year to get it figured out.

3) Stocks would warp. Inletting was iffy.

4) Triggers could be downright abominable.


30 years ago, it was kind of axiomatic that a 4 MOA rifle was okay for deer hunting. It still probably is, but you can do a heck of a lot better with not as much cost or effort. Nowadays, if I bought a 4 MOA deer rifle brand new, I would demand my money back.

A Savage Axis has a street price of $250, give or take. In 1989, adjusting for income, that rifle would be worth $120. However, you could not get anything near a 2019 Savage Axis for $120. Instead, a Rem 700 cost about $350+. A $120 rifle (I bought one around then) would be more like a used Winchester 670 that looked it had been dragged behind a truck on a chain. It had been purchased new in the early 70's at K-Mart and traded between family members in rural KY before one of the brothers brought it North to a gun show to dump it. I was the dumpee. To get to where a new $120 gun would get you 1 MOA accuracy out of the box might be well back into the early 1960's. However a $120 rifle back then would be a $1200-1500 rifle now.


Last edited by shaman; 08/17/19.

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I test a great number of new rifles, usually 2-3 per month and the accuracy is generally far beyond any reasonable expectation that a hunter could have. As has been suggested, better quality ammunition is one of the variables that has improved overall performance. I also think that the art and science of making great barrels has become more universal and factory barrels are better than they used to be. Finally, many manufacturers have figured-out some tricks to make rifles shoot better without adding to the price tag. The aforementioned Savage as well as the Ruger American are great examples of this.

When I see a rifle that won't group under 1-MOA with at least one load these days, I take notice.

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I have ‘limited’ experience with current Factory ammo. I bought WW 270 W. 130 PP
in 2007. It shot extremely well in my T 3 SS Lite. I killed several WT with them and used
the Brass later.

In 2008 I bought a 70 Black Shadow in 300 WM — ON opening day of our Deer season.
I went to W W &. bought. Fed Blue Box 180 Speer Hot Cor ammo. I sighted it in on Monday
afternoon & killed my Heaviest WT - 194 lbs - with the FIRST shot at game Tuesday AM, so...
It shot extremely well in the 70.

So much for my Factory ammo since 2007.

From the past, you are correct about rifles & ammo. In the 70s-80s. IF you could
handload 1” accuracy you were golden.

It does seem that Rifles & Ammo have “Come A Long Way Baby “.

Jerry


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My very first attempt/beginning to reload was with a stock Mod 77 .280, a Wards 3x9 ( made by Tasco); and once fired Remington brass, 9 1/2 primer, Hornady 139sp, IMR 4831 (all assembled with a LEE Class Loader) I worked up in 1/2 grain increments from 53 and hit paydirt at 55gr. I had a 3 shot, triangle that measured 1", I was ecstatic! This was in 1977 and the "best" it shot the 150 factory load was 1 3/4-2". I killed a nice buck with that load...at 15yds, ha. The next Fall ( after shooting all summer) the 139gr allowed me to hit another nice buck at 276 looong steps! Amazing! Even today, I have had rifles that shoot well under 1", if a rifle "consistently" shoots 1 1/4", I know I have an accurate rifle/load. Less is nice, but no way I can take advantage of it, I just strive for it....it "please me", but certainly not needed for my hunting style. I do understand the "need" for one hole accuracy for what I call "Ultra Long Range" (500-1000K). But there are not that many bonafide 500-1000K shooters/hitters. I've shot an 8" howitzer a gazillion times out to +10 miles...but I didn't always "hit" on first round! smile

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They're putting some amazingly accurate rifles together these days and if accuracy is the only thing that matters to a guy, then he should be ecstatic with one of them.

For me, though, other things come into play...things like function, aesthetics, carrying qualities, ergonomics, and just plain appeal. We all have unique approaches to the game and that's just fine. What suits me may not suit another.

We've got it pretty good when it comes to choices and I think it's great!


Don't be the darkness.

America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.


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Originally Posted by jwall
MN

I have ‘limited’ experience with current Factory ammo. I bought WW 270 W. 130 PP
in 2007. It shot extremely well in my T 3 SS Lite. I killed several WT with them and used
the Brass later.

In 2008 I bought a 70 Black Shadow in 300 WM — ON opening day of our Deer season.
I went to W W &. bought. Fed Blue Box 180 Speer Hot Cor ammo. I sighted it in on Monday
afternoon & killed my Heaviest WT - 194 lbs - with the FIRST shot at game Tuesday AM, so...
It shot extremely well in the 70.

So much for my Factory ammo since 2007.

From the past, you are correct about rifles & ammo. In the 70s-80s. IF you could
handload 1” accuracy you were golden.

It does seem that Rifles & Ammo have “Come A Long Way Baby “.

Jerry


So has the internet. Everyone on the internet can shoot sub 1/2 moa all day long baby..... whistle


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by RiverRider
They're putting some amazingly accurate rifles together these days and if accuracy is the only thing that matters to a guy, then he should be ecstatic with one of them.

For me, though, other things come into play...things like function, aesthetics, carrying qualities, ergonomics, and just plain appeal. We all have unique approaches to the game and that's just fine. What suits me may not suit another.

We've got it pretty good when it comes to choices and I think it's great!


What has gotten much better is bullets and powder. Some rifles were very accurate back in the day. I have many pre 64's that will prove that day in day out...
[Linked Image]

So it's not really rifles getting better, just better everything else. I will attest to the savage rifles being pretty good now days though. Well, at least until they sold out. Lately Iv'e been seeing some pretty lousy savage rifles. I know of a lot of old savage rifles that shoot lights out too... Good barrels and machining practices have been around for a long time, and so have good accurate rifles...
[Linked Image]


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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10-4 on the components, BSA. You have to be amazed, though, with the accuracy we hear about being achieved with the Axis, Ruger American, and some of the other economy rifles available lately...not to mention some of the other premium offerings.

I think it's accurate to say that most EVERYTHING is getting better---except where the beancounters have had negative influence.


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America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.


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A few years back I found a Winchester M70 XTR push feeder in .270 Win. wit a scope for a decent price, What struck me is I would have sworn the rifle had a McMillan stock with lines like the M70 Featherweight which I happen to like. So I bought it and stopped at Walmart and got a couple of boxes of Winchester 150 gr. Power Points to try the the rifle out. I'd asked the seller if it was accurate and he said, "It's very accurate. You'll love it." He wasn't lying. The first group of 5 shots was a half inch. shocked I shot three more shot groups and they did open up some as the barrel heated up with the last group doing IIRC .85" for the now hot barrel. The rifle does equally well with the two hand loads I've worked up. I can shoot the Winchester factory 150 gr. load or either the 150 gr. Sierra Game King or 150 gr. Nosler Partition without having to adjust the sights. Dunno why that guy ever sold that rifle but methinks it was a serious error in judgement. I don't shoot 130 gr. bullets in the .270 and maybe it wasn't accurate with those for him. confused

Funny thing I a few years before I bought the .270 I picked up another Winchester push feeder in .300 Win. Mag. that looked like the stock wasa McMillan, but with a blind magazine. Shot reasonably well with 180 gr. ammo but my hand loads using the 200 gr. Speer Hot Core were always shooting tiny groups ranging from .375" to .75" depending on how well I'm shooting and wind conditions. Substitute the 200 gr. Partition and they'll be in that same group.

Then there is my Remington M700 Classic in 30-06 that the only way to get reasonably small groups is to load that sucker balls to the wall. That's with 180 gr. bullets, mostly Sierras but some Noslers. I just may rebarrel it to something else and a have a few 30-06s that shoot much better than that Classic.
whistle
Frankly, I haven't bought any rifles now for quite a while. At my age the sensible thing would be to sell off everything but the treasured few. But then again, what rifle loony is sensible? whistle

Paul B.


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Originally Posted by RiverRider
10-4 on the components, BSA. You have to be amazed, though, with the accuracy we hear about being achieved with the Axis, Ruger American, and some of the other economy rifles available lately...not to mention some of the other premium offerings.

I think it's accurate to say that most EVERYTHING is getting better---except where the beancounters have had negative influence.


I agree buddy. I can take most all of my Savages and Tikka's out and just bug hole groups with them. My pre 64's are accurate, but they did take some work. Now days, you have some dang good options out there for excellent out of the box accurate rifles. I guess you can say the budget rifles are a lot better now days... To some extent, I am amazed with some of these rifles. One of the reasons I've been buying a lot of savage and Tikka's lately...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by PJGunner
A few years back I found a Winchester M70 XTR push feeder in .270 Win. wit a scope for a decent price, What struck me is I would have sworn the rifle had a McMillan stock with lines like the M70 Featherweight which I happen to like. So I bought it and stopped at Walmart and got a couple of boxes of Winchester 150 gr. Power Points to try the the rifle out. I'd asked the seller if it was accurate and he said, "It's very accurate. You'll love it." He wasn't lying. The first group of 5 shots was a half inch. shocked I shot three more shot groups and they did open up some as the barrel heated up with the last group doing IIRC .85" for the now hot barrel. The rifle does equally well with the two hand loads I've worked up. I can shoot the Winchester factory 150 gr. load or either the 150 gr. Sierra Game King or 150 gr. Nosler Partition without having to adjust the sights. Dunno why that guy ever sold that rifle but methinks it was a serious error in judgement. I don't shoot 130 gr. bullets in the .270 and maybe it wasn't accurate with those for him. confused

Funny thing I a few years before I bought the .270 I picked up another Winchester push feeder in .300 Win. Mag. that looked like the stock wasa McMillan, but with a blind magazine. Shot reasonably well with 180 gr. ammo but my hand loads using the 200 gr. Speer Hot Core were always shooting tiny groups ranging from .375" to .75" depending on how well I'm shooting and wind conditions. Substitute the 200 gr. Partition and they'll be in that same group.

Then there is my Remington M700 Classic in 30-06 that the only way to get reasonably small groups is to load that sucker balls to the wall. That's with 180 gr. bullets, mostly Sierras but some Noslers. I just may rebarrel it to something else and a have a few 30-06s that shoot much better than that Classic.
whistle
Frankly, I haven't bought any rifles now for quite a while. At my age the sensible thing would be to sell off everything but the treasured few. But then again, what rifle loony is sensible? whistle

Paul B.



Loony to the grave man. I keep thinking I am going to sell some of my rifles I don't use much. Then I buy another one, just so I can work on it, make it accurate and put it in the safe... Then on to the next one...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by shaman


A Savage Axis has a street price of $250, give or take. In 1989, adjusting for income, that rifle would be worth $120. However, you could not get anything near a 2019 Savage Axis for $120. Instead, a Rem 700 cost about $350+. A $120 rifle (I bought one around then) would be more like a used Winchester 670 that looked it had been dragged behind a truck on a chain. It had been purchased new in the early 70's at K-Mart and traded between family members in rural KY before one of the brothers brought it North to a gun show to dump it. I was the dumpee. To get to where a new $120 gun would get you 1 MOA accuracy out of the box might be well back into the early 1960's. However a $120 rifle back then would be a $1200-1500 rifle now.


Ah, Shaman......The Win 670. My first rifle in about 1975.

I traded a nearly new 12 ga 870 magnum for a 670 in 30-06. I put a bit of Acra-glass under the action and worked on the trigger with a set of ignition wrenches. Then I added a Weaver 2-7x32.

I acquired a young wife with a five year old daughter in the fall of '82, and by 83 had a son on the way. All of my firearms were sold to help keep food in front of my kids.

But in about '86, I had the opportunity to purchase another 670 in 30-06. This one was covered in a thin, light layer of rust and I paid $100 for it.

That light rust turn into decent blueing after several hours of hand rubbed oil. I repeated the bedding and trigger work performed on my first 670. I had hung onto the V-7 and put it on the 2'nd rifle.

Either one of them was good to clip the head off of a grouse out to 80 yds, and plenty good enough for heart shots on deer out to 400 yds. Ammunition was a 165 gr boat tail from Speer, or Sierra, or most often a Nosler bt and always over 60 gr of H4831 in whatever brass which happened to be lying around. Federal, Remington, Winchester, lots of military of various years, it all worked.

If I could walk out of a gunshop with a rifle, and know for a fact that it would shoot as well as either of those two 670s, I would gladly pay $1500. I would not care that the rifle had a birch stock, and a blind magazine. Actually I would prefer that to the typical soft plastic stocks often found on introductory level rifles. And I would definitely prefer a blind mag to the vaunted "DBM".


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Quote
Ah, Shaman......The Win 670. My first rifle in about 1975.


I spent the winter stripping and sanding mine. In the spring, I rubbed on a new finish and felt I had a work of art

[Linked Image]

The first time I had it out to the range, I had a fellow offer me $400 for it. I politely turned him down, because of all the work I'd put in it.

I gave it to #3 son when he started hunting on his own. Last November, Angus had one of those hunt-of-a-lifetime moments, and now his soul is bonded to that rifle.

[Linked Image]

Details here:
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Purchased my last new rifle 20 years ago. Have shot maybe 3 boxes of factory ammo in the last 40 years not including RF ammo. Dunno diddle about how new stuff works these days.

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Dan


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I would venture to say that 95% of production rifles will out shoot 99.5% of their owners thereof!!


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Originally Posted by Sharpsman
I would venture to say that 95% of production rifles will out shoot 99.5% of their owners thereof!!




I would be one of the 95%. Don’t shoot as well as I once did

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There be a reason for shotguns in the closet.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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One summer a while ago, for some reason I decided to shoot prairie dogs with sort of a Grand Slam of firearms, except I forgot about muzzleloaders. (Mine are all "traditional," which wouldn't have made any difference.) If I recall correctly, these included:

The Colt Frontier .22 rimfire I inherited from my father.
A Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt.
A Winchester Model 62A .22 rimfire.
My .45-70 trapdoor Springfield, also inherited from my father.
My 12-gauge Model 97 Winchester, purchased for $75 from my first wife's grandfather in the 1970s.

Out to 50 yards they all worked pretty well, but the handguns missed now and then, especially when shooting at heads. Obviously it was their fault, as everything else did fine. The most reliable, however, was the 97.


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