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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 70
Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 70 |
The following shotgun developed the depicted crack in the breach after a very light session of skeet shooting. It was purchased brand new in 2016 and took the crack in 2017. When I called Cimarron Customer service and they asked for the serial number, I was told the warranty had expired in 2014. This seemed odd that a firearm's warranty can expire before the date of purchase. After a significant but civil argument, they finally agreed to have a look at it. They had it for over a moth before I finally got in touch and asked about an update. Then everything happened very rapidly. Upon examination and testing, Cimarron's team advised me to continue using the shotgun as I normally would, as their test showed no added damage, and the crack seemed to be on the surface and not inside. I objected to this, and asked them to reconsider returning me a damaged shotgun. Senior Sales Associate Chip K. had been dealing with me over email up to this point and he offered to sell me a new shotgun for a certain percentage off. The price was still significant, and I asked to be put in touch with their legal team, or whoever they outsourced their legal action to. Only after significant back and forth did they put me in touch with Steve S., Director of Strategic Partnerships. His solution was to offer to sell me one of their premium grade shotguns for what he called the "generous price" of $521. Normal price is $721. I declined the offer and again asked to be put in touch with their legal team. This was last Tuesday, and I've not heard anything since. I hate to think of this as normal Cimarron Customer service behavior. Perhaps I am being overly cautious, but I would think shooting ANY firearm with ANY crack borders on negligence. This being my first customer service experience with Cimarron I have to ask; is this normal for them? ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/q9O9ATS.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/n7CJoRx.jpg)
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,162
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,162 |
I'm guessing the star shaped object highlighted over the chamber area is the issue.
Basing a definitive opinion on a picture is difficult but I would be inclined to believe Cimarron's explanation at this point. It does not appear to be a full depth crack in the barrel based off no obvious venting of heat, soot, or other products of combustion. I also base this on the shooter not mentioning any oddities while shooting. Even at shotgun pressures, a crack of that nature would likely be catastrophic and, if not, gases venting from such a position would surely get the attention of someone using the gun. This also appears to be a very odd location for such a fracture to occur.
To check if it is a crack or just a flaw in the bluing I would run my finger over the area feeling for an edge. I would follow that up with the tip of a sharp dentist's pick looking for it to catch. If nothing turns up, then it is most likely a flaw in the bluing or surface of the steel. If ridges or deformities are found, I would be leery of using it until I had it further evaluated by a gunsmith (or two) I trusted. If it is then found to be a crack of significant depth at least you aren't out much money which is the one redeeming feature of this class of firearms.
Remember, this recommendation from an unknown person of unknown qualifications of an unseen firearm based off very limited information is worth maybe what you paid for it.
As for the "warranty", it probably became expired the moment LJC PRC fulfilled their contract with Cimarron. This is again not uncommon with these types of companies, especially when dealing with the middleman. You would have to contact LJC (whomever they are and if they even currently exist) to see if they have any warranty on their products and if they will even honor it at this point.
There are many corners cut when producing a double gun in this price range. It is why most experienced shooters stay away from them or consider them to disposable items. As an aside, the gun looks similar to three we have sitting in the back room. They were defective from the start and we have been fighting with the importer (not Cimarron) for 5 years to take them back. The importer won't take them as those guns are several manufacturers in the past, the manufacturer is no longer in business (at least not under that name), and we can't destroy them nor disable them ourselves. So, they just sit in a corner collecting dust.
The above, plus a few personal adventures and those of friends and others has taught me "bargain" guns really aren't. I'll take a chance on one on occasion but always with the expectation it will not work out well.
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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 70
Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 70 |
I'm guessing the star shaped object highlighted over the chamber area is the issue.
Basing a definitive opinion on a picture is difficult but I would be inclined to believe Cimarron's explanation at this point. It does not appear to be a full depth crack in the barrel based off no obvious venting of heat, soot, or other products of combustion. I also base this on the shooter not mentioning any oddities while shooting. Even at shotgun pressures, a crack of that nature would likely be catastrophic and, if not, gases venting from such a position would surely get the attention of someone using the gun. This also appears to be a very odd location for such a fracture to occur.
To check if it is a crack or just a flaw in the bluing I would run my finger over the area feeling for an edge. I would follow that up with the tip of a sharp dentist's pick looking for it to catch. If nothing turns up, then it is most likely a flaw in the bluing or surface of the steel. If ridges or deformities are found, I would be leery of using it until I had it further evaluated by a gunsmith (or two) I trusted. If it is then found to be a crack of significant depth at least you aren't out much money which is the one redeeming feature of this class of firearms.
Remember, this recommendation from an unknown person of unknown qualifications of an unseen firearm based off very limited information is worth maybe what you paid for it.
As for the "warranty", it probably became expired the moment LJC PRC fulfilled their contract with Cimarron. This is again not uncommon with these types of companies, especially when dealing with the middleman. You would have to contact LJC (whomever they are and if they even currently exist) to see if they have any warranty on their products and if they will even honor it at this point.
There are many corners cut when producing a double gun in this price range. It is why most experienced shooters stay away from them or consider them to disposable items. As an aside, the gun looks similar to three we have sitting in the back room. They were defective from the start and we have been fighting with the importer (not Cimarron) for 5 years to take them back. The importer won't take them as those guns are several manufacturers in the past, the manufacturer is no longer in business (at least not under that name), and we can't destroy them nor disable them ourselves. So, they just sit in a corner collecting dust.
The above, plus a few personal adventures and those of friends and others has taught me "bargain" guns really aren't. I'll take a chance on one on occasion but always with the expectation it will not work out well.
Thank you for the thoughtful insight, (I mean that sincerely, which is difficult to convey digitally.) Unfortunately, the highlighted area is not a highlight at all, but a discoloration of the metal caused by whatever caused the rupture. I have been referring to it as a "heat ring," as it cannot be removed with an oily rag or low grade steel wool. You may very easily catch a fingernail in this crack, verifying that it is indeed a rupture, and not a flaw in the bluing or metal. You are right of course, this is a low grade shotgun. However, it was still money spent and money out. I do expect a seller to stand behind a product they sell. However, that may just be my naivete; perhaps I should consider altering my expectations.
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,162
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,162 |
Based on your further information, I wouldn't shoot it.
I realize you spent your money but there is a cost for service which is figured into the purchase price. When a product is priced well below the proven lines, after sale service of all types is one of the first factors to be cut. It took me 15 years of learning the hard way to come to that realization, increased use of the Internet helped my learning curve more than 20 years ago.
I compared the three similar guns we have at work to yours and it appears they are from the same manufacturer. Good luck getting anywhere with them. LJC is owned by the People's Republic of China and they were not known for either good customer service or quality control. Made in China stamped on a product is nearly a deal breaker for me. Quality control is spotty at best and I expect problems sooner rather than later. I have had the rare exception but overall it is a safe course to follow.
At this point you have two options: make a lamp or sell it to someplace like Numrich Arms to salvage parts. You will get pennies on the dollar as salvage but it will help offset the price of this learning experience.
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 14,039
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 14,039 |
just a thought,
buy a set of savage four tenner inserts and use it as a 410.
when i saw the picture the first thought was a void in the chamber. i would be very leery of shooting it as is.
the only firearm i have or will ever have from the PRC is a sks.
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,456
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,456 |
Could the barrels be magnafluxed to see if the damage is any deeper than the surface, or if it goes deeper into the chamber?
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,162
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,162 |
I wouldn't bother with the Magnaflux, if there is a flaw in the barrels I wouldn't trust them to stay together, especially at the low price point of the discussed gun. The crack may be superficial now but there is definitely something wrong and continued used would likely lead to further metal fatigue and possible rupture.
The idea of tubes is a good one but the tubes would cost as much and likely more as the gun is worth, even 410'ers. I've done similar with Briley Companion tubes with Damascus barrels and the combo worked well. It would get some use out of the OP's gun but odds are something else will go wrong and leave the gun unusable. At least the tubes could be used for a different gun at a later date.
The unfortunate truth is the OP learned a lesson regarding low price point firearms. When something is outside the norm for pricing, it is time for the buyer to step back and take a good, hard look. Odds are one will find the value often isn't there.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,128
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,128 |
Just had a buddy rupture a barrel on a 12 gauge and he lost a couple of fingers. Err on the safe side.
If you find yourself in a hole....quit digging
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,263
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,263 |
Not worth hiring someone but if you have any attorney buddies that would write a letter to the CEO, customer service and all, it might at least get their attention. I find it negligent on the part of the company to disregard what could have very serious consequences.
It may be reparable with TIG welding but I would never fully trust it again. It should be relegated to a wall hanging or lamp after the firing pins are removed.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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