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Originally Posted by shaman
The scope puts a 2 MOA red dot on the target, so it more than covered the bullseye at 100 yards.


You need a different target to assess the real potential. By using the correct target I was able to consistently shoot well below moa using a scope topping out at 6x and having moa thick crosshairs.

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While we've probably all seen the guys at the range sighting in with less than perfect form and getting "close enough", there's the other side of the spectrum. The guy who spends all his time at the bench and makes statements like, "if it won't shoot 1/2 MOA I won't own it." But when he gets off the bench and has to shoot off his hind legs, is just as likely to shoot off a deer's hind leg with his "1/2 MOA" rifle. There's a significant number of guys out there who can shoot well off a bench but never learned how to shoot unsupported.

I'd rather see a guy with a 3-4 MOA rifle, using it within its limitations, who knows how to shoot in any position and can confidently make a shot from an unsupported position, then to see some guy with a bug hole rifle trying in vain to hit a buck that didn't play by the rules by waiting for him to get into a rested position.


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I can't shoot MOA on my hind legs.

But I can do 4 MOA or better most days.

,45 Flintlock @ 50 yards....
[Linked Image]

The .38-55 at 100. The bull is 6" in diameter.
[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by shaman
The scope puts a 2 MOA red dot on the target, so it more than covered the bullseye at 100 yards.


You need a different target to assess the real potential. By using the correct target I was able to consistently shoot well below moa using a scope topping out at 6x and having moa thick crosshairs.


^^^^^^^^^^ YEP,

Originally Posted by shaman
The scope puts a 2 MOA red dot on the target, so it more than covered the bullseye at 100 yards.


When your scope reticle, red dot, whatever - COVERS your aiming point you have NO idea where the CENTER of your scope is
WHEN the shot goes off.

Shaman ? ?

I know you are not a novice.


Long ago I figured out that a 'black background' target with a black crosshair wasn't good for specific aiming >> for me.
Different people with different eyes should experiment with different COLORS and SIZES for their target (aiming point).
All don't have the same eye quality. All don't see colors the same as others.
eg. I have a slight color phase blindness. I bought and painted walls with a TAN paint. However IN the house with less than BRIGHT light, the walls have a PASTEL green hue - TO ME.

I like/use 4plex type scope crosshairs and whatever target I use --- I AIM at 6 O'clock. The target is ABOVE my crosshair and I know
WHEN the shot goes off IF I'm off, L, R, H, or Lo.

Jerry


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Originally Posted by jwall
[
When your scope reticle, red dot, whatever - COVERS your aiming point you have NO idea where the CENTER of your scope is
WHEN the shot goes off.

Shaman ? ?

I know you are not a novice.


Long ago I figured out that a 'black background' target with a black crosshair wasn't good for specific aiming >> for me.
Different people with different eyes should experiment with different COLORS and SIZES for their target (aiming point).
All don't have the same eye quality. All don't see colors the same as others.
eg. I have a slight color phase blindness. I bought and painted walls with a TAN paint. However IN the house with less than BRIGHT light, the walls have a PASTEL green hue - TO ME.

I like/use 4plex type scope crosshairs and whatever target I use --- I AIM at 6 O'clock. The target is ABOVE my crosshair and I know
WHEN the shot goes off IF I'm off, L, R, H, or Lo.

Jerry



I completely agree with you. I still have quite a bit of work ahead of me to get it down to its maximum accuracy, but remember, this is going to be fired offhand out of a treestand or stalking in the cedars-- both of which mean I'm going to have 80 yard visibility maximum. This is good enough to go deer hunting. 4 MOA is going to be more than enough for now. This is my first rifle with a red dot on it. Were I going for maximum accuracy, I'd have stuck a standard crosshair scope on it. O.T. always swore by his red dot scope. I feel I kind of owe it to him to give it a try. I've got targets that have a light grey for rings and black for cross-marks. Those are the ones I use when I'm really trying to produce a group. This one was an all-black target with a red 2" bull. I put it up, because it splatters and throws up yellow around where it gets hit. I just wanted a no-muss/no-fuss setup. Somebody left these at the farm a few years ago, and I found an excuse to use them. They worked: I was off the bench patting myself within 20 minutes.

I already see something in this exercise: O.T. was one the local dead-eye dicks-- always got his deer. However, it's a 2 MOA red dot. How the #@FJ did he know how well his rifle shot? Obviously things work different here on Planet 4MOA.

I think that's the big moral of this thread: some folks go out of their way to get the most accuracy they can. Others figure out what its going to take to get the job done and work back from there.


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If you can reliably keep the bullet holes under a 2 moa dot you can do just fine a good bit farther out than 80 yards.

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Originally Posted by mathman
If you can reliably keep the bullet holes under a 2 moa dot you can do just fine a good bit farther out than 80 yards.


You're absolutely right. I figure I could conceivably take a 120 yard shot without worrying about elevation. The PBR on this load is 117 yards with a 6 inch target. The problem is going to be finding a spot where 120 yards is even possible. In my best deep woods treestand, I know I can see deer in the woods at 80 yards. On the ground, that number goes down to less than 50, and the normal encounter with a deer is in the 5-15 yard range. That's about the farthest I can see without being blocked with cedar trees. Out in the pastures, my longest shot might be 250 yards, but if I'm going there, I've got any one of a number of rifles to take that shoot that far without a hitch.


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Going from fine aiming points, like a scope w crosshair...........to a red dot, there is a bit of a learning curve (IMHO).
There's a tendency to want to look around the dot.
Dots that are big, or have flare, make it worse.

A crisp 2 moa dot is pretty sweet and small enough you see enough of the target around it to end up trusting it.

Trusting in what you don't see...........the target behind the center of the dot.
And you will hit it.

Just a different view/way of thinking.
Takes a few rounds to get there.

Hell if I can do it anybody can.

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I suppose one could go so far as to not trust the dot, set the impact for the top edge of the dot, never covering up their aiming point.
Had a 3 moa dot and shot clays on the bank at 100.
It was boring. Pieces of clays died with regularity too.

Still prefer a scope, on a rifle.
But on a handgun, a reddot whips an EER IMHO.
No loss of image when moved a little, no magnification of wobbles............just a dot and a shot. Nails em.
Think on a deer handgun, they're wonderful.

I've thought about a micro on a rifle.............been watching too much "Wild Boar Fever" LOL

BTW, I like 2 moa dot better than 3.........for everything.
I don't shoot speed steel though. Think the guys like bigger dots then.

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Shaman
I’ve read your responses and I understand your point & purpose.

I hope you understand and don’t take offense at my point & purpose.
From the thread that generated this one....

4 MOA is totally unacceptable to me.

If it works for you that’s good.


Jerry


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Originally Posted by jwall
Shaman
I’ve read your responses and I understand your point & purpose.

I hope you understand and don’t take offense at my point & purpose.
From the thread that generated this one....

4 MOA is totally unacceptable to me.

If it works for you that’s good.


Jerry


Oh gosh and golly no! I didn't on the previous thread, and I'm not taking offense now. This is wholly a different strokes/different folks kind of deal.

Please understand, that if Bob hadn't passed, and I had not ended up with this rifle, I'd have been trying to wring the last bit of accuracy out of a 25-06 Mauser that has gone largely unused since I got it. I'm down to 1-1.5 MOA with it, and I'd be doing more with it this fall. I blooded it the year I got it and gave a pile of venison to old O.T. to get him through the winter, and now he's dead. I've already got it shooting better than O.T. ever did when he owned it.

As it is, I now own what some have called the best close-in deer rifle of all time and I'm now challenged to do it up oldstyle the way Bob would have wanted me to-- minute of pie-plate/in your face/smellin' the buck's breath.


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I hunted with my wife and her father and two brothers. They all used Remington 742 or 760
rifles. I used a 25-06 Mauser.
My brother in law told me that I was overcomplicating things.
He told me that I point a piece of pipe at a piece of meat. If the pipe is pointed at the meat when the trigger is pulled you get the meat.
I bought a 35 Whelen mostly to piss him off because
he said I didn't need it.
whelennut


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Knowing the gun is important. Not knowing the range sometimes makes a MOA rifle look bad. It is always the rifle's fault! OH yeah, and checking the sight in before each hunting season might be advisable (which I almost always do - ran out of time this year).

My 725 in .260 is an honest MOA rifle on paper, at ranged distances. Get it out in the field, tho, it's accuracy goes all to hell. Once it pecker-shot a caribou. (Distance and wind). Just a couple weeks ago, it skinned a nice bull caribou's leg about 6 inches over the hoof pretty good. Dumped him on the ground with what I thought was an impressive shot, but he got up again. Missed next two shots totally, even holding high. He was moving right along, too, getting farther away all the time. Made him limp for a time. Last I saw of him at the time he was using all four legs, just limping some on the one, as he disappeared into the valley brush about a mile away. "Flesh wound", I told my wife. Only animal I have never attempted to follow up. Still a bad feeling!

I know,"for a time", cuz he wasn't limping the next day when my wife shot him. Noticed the split skin when I went to drag him down to a flatter spot for dressing. Took a better look at his antlers, and yep - same bull. He had a couple bad days, but suddenly I was having a very good one. smile

A bit later, that first day, on my way back to sight in a rifle that I had lost all confidence in, it did just fine on a 100 yard bull. I mean, how far off could it be, at that range? Bullet went right to POA. Down at the truck that night, it put two bullets two inches high into a piece of mining refuse at 106 paces, with a center to center distance of 1/4 inch.

See what I mean about it behaving itself on paper? Or in this case, a 2' X 3' piece of 3 inches of styrofoam bonded to a half inch of concrete, with an inch-diameter permanent marker dot drawn on it.

Now, Ironbender told me not to tell you guys this, but we are all friends here, right? And discrete?. Kindly even!

The extractor on the .,260 broke at the Cody WY gun range last year and I never got around to getting the replacement fitted. Only two of my other rifles were ready to go - a .338WM sighted in with 250 grain Hornady RN (some 10 years ago), and a heavy barreled Mauser 98 (10.5 lbs) that gets one inch groups at 300 yards. The '98 went as did the .260 as a single shot, with spare rounds in the magazine. All told, the .260 weighs right around 7 to 7.5 lbs, sling, scope, and 10 rounds. More better than either oif the other two for packing around a mountain- and I really wasn't expecting that much of the hunt anyway that first day (see 40 mile caribou on Alaska thread)

Just wait 8-10 seconds for the brass to cool and shrink, tip the muzzle up, open the bolt, and the empty brass slides right out. Maybe a bit of a stock bump sometimes... the next one chambers just fine, and it's faster than a ML!

Tho not as fast as a real single-shot. And unfired chambered rounds are a bit stickier to unload.

It took two pretty good bulls on two successive days, so, hey! My wife's was at about 137 yards on the rangefinder, which had refused to work for me on that first bull the day before. He was well within the range of the Leupold 800i - just would not pick it up. Bull was probably 400-450, instead of my eyeballed "250-300".

Stupid gun!

I also check-sighted the '98 that first night, and packed it up the mountain the second day (did not the first). It has never been off in the several years I used it off the ATV or snow machine up in the Arctic, bringing it home with me a year ago last May. Not fired since, until the check-sight. 3 inches high at 106 - two rounds touching, but 5 inches to the right. Must have been that last trip coming home on the snow machine after killing a caribou, or the airline. 15 clicks left put the next round 3 inches high above the dot, dead in line horizontally with the first two. The advertised "1 click = 1/4 inch is slightly off, but I knew that, and by roughly how much.

That's a valuable piece of information..... smile

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Why TC put 1:45 barrels on their BP's I have no idea. It won't shoot ball, nor the mininies with any degree of accuracy.

My Hawkin .50 on a good day will get under 6" groups. I don't think I ever got a 4 inch group at 100 with it.

I have taken it moose hunting several times, without luck, but with no worries about "accuracy". A washtub size fatal area vs a 6" group at 100 yards or less? No problem!

Of the 20-some moose I have taken, only two exceeded 100 yards, one by 40, another by 60 yards. My average distance is about 65-70.

Get close enough, even a smoothbore will kill ( one moose with 12 Ga. slug at 35 yards).

Actually, except for drop, that Win 1200 with 1 oz slugs gets better groups than the Hawkin!


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My T/C Hawken (.50 cal) is very accurate with both RBs and 385 grain conicals.



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I had several M-16s cycle through my hands. The first was a Colt rifle that shattered the chromed bolt carrier. That was a show-stopper. I had a GM Hydramatic Division one that was accurate as hell and I even got hauled in for shooting sand lizards at 100+ meters at the Phu Bai ammo dump. No sense of humor... The pile of lizard carcasses removed any hope of denial. I switched units 3 times and each time a new- to - me rifle. Zero at a range? LOL

The CAR -15 I ended up with the last 6 months was a shooter with the short barrel. I took it to the garbage pit and whacked a few cans at 25 yards and called it good. Then burned through 4 or 5 mags at full auto to make sure it would shoot reliably. 4 moa isn't such a bad thing if you are shooting a fair sized targets at close range. Happy Trails


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Originally Posted by smokepole
My T/C Hawken (.50 cal) is very accurate with both RBs and 385 grain conicals.
.

I also have a 6MOA .45 Seneca.... Cannot convince me 1:45 is a good rate of twist for either ball or Minnie, much less both. dumasses should have gone high or low, or both high and low, shooter's choice. I'd have bought both. In fact, TC should have sold it in swap-barrel form.

What I really want is a Renegade in .54..... an accurate one. but I'll never buy TC BP again.

If I was really hot to trot ML, I'd get a proper twist barrel or conicals and modify the Hawkin, but since there is no advantage (read reasonable access to ML season), I won't.

Fun to shoot, even if it won't hit anything..... smile


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Back in the Jurassic era I had a T/C Renegade in .50 that I built from a kit. RB or maxi shot remarkably well. 50 gr of 2f for the RB was good for 1" at 50 yards every day of the week. 90 gr. of 2f with the maxiballs was good for about the same and seldom more than 2" at 100. Of course that's back when I could see fairly well.

If I should ever cross paths with the asshat that stole it he's gonna die.


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You are absolutely correct in saying a 4 MOA rifle is all YOU need for deer or anything else. A 4 moa rifle for woodchucks, not so much. With some of the people here, those who hunt in the prairies, open mountains and over large bean fields, not so much. You don't find things like 742's or 760's there too much from what I understand.

As far as 70's and 80's rifles, I bought a bunch. Mostly of the late 60's and 70's vintage. Many sold originally from Sears, J.C.Pennys and Western Auto. I would take them and tune them to be as good as they could be. Then I would get bored with them and sell them then start another project. I enjoyed that.


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Haven't read the whole thread but I used to live there - called rural Pennsylvania. If you could hit a paper plate at 100 yards every time you qualified as marksman.


The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

Which explains a lot.
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