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Maybe this has been addressed here and I've missed it, but I have a question regarding obtainable velocities using 140 gr. bullets in these two cartridges.
From my research, it seems that SAAMI max pressure for the 264 is 64,000 psi and for the 7mm the max is 61,000 psi.
I was also under the impression (maybe I'm wrong here?) that the cases for these two are very similar. I believe MD even wrote in one of his articles on the 264 that he used some 7mm mag brass he had and resized them to use in the 264, so I can't think that the case capacity between the two is significant.
Therefore, my question: Why do in all of the reloading manuals I have and what I can find from the bullet and powder manufacturers online all say that maximum obtainable velocities for the 264 fall below those for the 7mm?
I've got an older Nosler manual (maybe 6-8 years old now) and Brian Pearce wrote the intro to the 264 mag section. In the intro, he says that obtaining 3200 fps is doable with a 140 gr. bullet. But then the load data shows max. velocity of only around 3000 fps and most powders listed are lucky to get to 2900. Why is this?
In other words, how come I can't get equal velocity in the 264 that I can get with the 7mm?
By the way, I own rifles and load for both of these cartridges, but just kind of realized this last night as I was loading for the 264.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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General principle: same size case, same weight bullet, then the bigger bore produces higher velocity
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General principle: same size case, same weight bullet, then the bigger bore produces higher velocity Just physics. Larger bullet has greater total base area, more net force at same psi. More net force, more kinetic energy to push it faster. DF
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Not many loads will get 3200 fps in the 264 that Winchester originally optimistically claimed. People believed it and kept adding powder until they got there but who knows at what pressure? Due to the pressure difference the 264 can come close to the 7RM or within 75 - 100 fps. I can't get more than 3,175 fps with 140s in the 7RM with book loads so what little difference there is the 6.5 will catch up to due to a better BC within 400 yds. or so.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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I'm surprised somebody hasn't chimed in before with MD's formula. My mental math says the difference in bore area should account for about 3-4% difference in velocity in favor of the 7mm vs the .264. That's about 90-120 fps and seems about right.
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I just never could get myself to buy a 264 Win Mag because I think the 7mag is a little better.I can get 3200fps with a 150gr Ballistic Tip,my favorite bullet for deer and 3100fps with a 160gr Accubond,another great bullet.Brass is easier to find,great selection of bullets in the 7mm and if you buy shelf ammo,prices for that is cheaper too.I have four 7mags,all are great shooters and they all will shoot the same load very well.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~ As Bob Hagel would say"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."Good words of wisdom...............
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Not many loads will get 3200 fps in the 264 that Winchester originally optimistically claimed. People believed it and kept adding powder until they got there but who knows at what pressure? Due to the pressure difference the 264 can come close to the 7RM or within 75 - 100 fps. I can't get more than 3,175 fps with 140s in the 7RM with book loads so what little difference there is the 6.5 will catch up to due to a better BC within 400 yds. or so. There's SAAMI pressure and then there's Campfire pressure... DF
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I just never could get myself to buy a 264 Win Mag because I think the 7mag is a little better.I can get 3200fps with a 150gr Ballistic Tip,my favorite bullet for deer and 3100fps with a 160gr Accubond,another great bullet.Brass is easier to find,great selection of bullets in the 7mm and if you buy shelf ammo,prices for that is cheaper too.I have four 7mags,all are great shooters and they all will shoot the same load very well. I would agree that the 7 is "better" for game larger than deer. But one doesn't really need 140grains of bullet for deer. I love my 264 with 125 Partitions or 130ABs at or just under 3300 fps. Pleasant to shoot and very flat. But then we are picking nits, as per usual...
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Well I got 3220fps with 65.0grs of Accurate 4350 and also 70.0grs of Reloader-26 with a 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip.I don't pay too much attention to book loads with the 7mag.They usually run about 58,000psi.They loaded it way down when they brought out the 7STW.They did the same thing to the 7STW when they brought out the 7mm Ultra Mag and then along came the short magnums which were loaded around 63-65,000psi.I saw a lot of factory short mag stuff that definitely had visual signs of very high pressure.Those short mags had a lot of variation.Some had freebore and some didn't,that's probably why the high pressure signs on factory stuff in those rifles.It just shows you once again,every rifle is different and should be treated as such.
Last edited by baldhunter; 09/06/19.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~ As Bob Hagel would say"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."Good words of wisdom...............
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Interesting take on the 7mm mag ballistic history.
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I just never could get myself to buy a 264 Win Mag because I think the 7mag is a little better.I can get 3200fps with a 150gr Ballistic Tip,my favorite bullet for deer and 3100fps with a 160gr Accubond,another great bullet.Brass is easier to find,great selection of bullets in the 7mm and if you buy shelf ammo,prices for that is cheaper too.I have four 7mags,all are great shooters and they all will shoot the same load very well. I would agree that the 7 is "better" for game larger than deer. But one doesn't really need 140grains of bullet for deer. I love my 264 with 125 Partitions or 130ABs at or just under 3300 fps. Pleasant to shoot and very flat. But then we are picking nits, as per usual... ^^^This^^^ I prefer my 264 Win Mag with 125 Partitions. Maybe a little less recoil and a little flatter shooting too. I’ve killed a ton of game with that combo over the years and have been EXTREMELY happy with the results. And I seriously doubt a Mule Deer or an Elk would ever know the difference between a 125 gr or a 140 gr bullet. 🤠 That being said, if I could only have one rifle for medium sized game animals, a 7mm mag with a 140 gr Partition would be my first choice. And I’d also load it with 160 gr Partitions for big game and never look back either. JMHO, though. For whatever it’s worth.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
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OK. Thanks for the info. Now I know.
Anyone used RL25 or H1000 for 140s in the 264? What velocities were you getting with those powders? Unfortunately, I haven't bee able to snag any RL26 anywhere, so I don't have that to try.
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Always wanted a 264. I’ve had several 7mm Remington’s. Settled on a 270 wby which is my favorite . More better I think. That applies to the 150 and lower weights. Hasbeen
hasbeen (Better a has been than a never was!)
NRA Patron member Try to live your life where the preacher doesn't have to lie at your funeral
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Here is a pair of junkie old 264’s. I think a 270 Weatherby is a bit better also.
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baldhunter,
Sorry, but you don't understand what happened with 7mm Remington Magnum pressures and velocities. The change happened a LONG time before the 7mm STW appeared.
When the 7mm Remington was introduced in 1962, the SAAMI industry standards were copper-crusher pressures (then called PSI--pounds per square inch) even though they were worked up with copper-crusher testing, and 26" barrels. As electronic testing started to be used, it was not only determined that copper-crusher numbers were NOT PSI, but the 7mm RM often resulted in wide variations in pressures (both up and down) with certain powder/bullet combinations.
As a result, the SAAMI pressure standards were reduced to accommodate the variations. At the same time, the standard test barrel length for bolt-action cartridges became 24", not 26". BOTH reasons are why the advertised velocities of 7mm RM muzzle velocities were reduced considerably. It had nothing to do with the 7mm STW, which was introduced a long time after those changes.
The 7mm STW's factory ballistics have never been reduced, because they were developed AFTER the change to electronic testting. But you may be remembering when the 7mm was a wildcat, and many people (Including Layne Simpson) were reporting muzzle velocities close to 3700 fps with 140's and 3500 with 160's. But when Remington pressure-tested those loads, they were way over the long-time SAAMI maximum of 65,000 PSI for ANY cartridge. In fact most were 70,000-75,000 PSI. Whether that is a safe pressure level is another question--but SAAMi prefers to stay on the safe side, so the factory-standard velocities were reduced.
I have no idea where you got the idea that 7mm STW factory velocities were reduced because of the 7mm RUM. I checked the record of 7mm STW factory velocities and found they're basically the same as when the round was introduced, though they can be a little lower due to some bullets resulting in higher pressures than others--and some newer bullets do.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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The .270 Wby doesn’t get mentioned all that much, but it is a very wicked killer of all manner of game and probably my favorite elk cartridge.
Use 130s, 140s or 150s. The elk don’t seem to notice a difference.
Surprisingly pleasant to shoot, as well.
Last edited by seattlesetters; 09/06/19.
What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
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Hey JOC said his 270 would do anything a 264 would with less powder and noise. LOL
Mike
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In his day, he was right. The original .264 ammo did not feature bullets that had ballistic coefficients significantly better than .270 bullets, and muzzle velocities weren't much better in the same barrel lengths.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Hey JOC said his 270 would do anything a 264 would with less powder and noise. LOL
Mike If I remember correctly he also said he could never detect a diffence in effectiveness between the .270 and 7mm Rem. mag..
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Mule Deer I cannot say I totally disagree with what you are saying but when the 7STW was first introduced as a factory cartridge it became the big 7magnum.It was advertised to be about 200fps faster than the 7mag and also faster than the 7mm Weatherby Magnum.It kept that lead for a couple of years until Remington,who also introduced the 7STW as a factory cartridge and chambered rifles for that cartridge came out with their own Ultra Magnum line of cartridges.The 7mm Ultra Mag bested the 7STW by around 200fps as Remington wrote in their introduction of their new cartridge.It's all about marketing.I remember when they did the comparison between the 7STW and the 7mm Ultra Mag,the velocity for the 7STW was less than what they showed for it when they compared it to the 7mag just a few short years before.Once again,it's about marketing your product.If you look,most of the 7mm Weatherby Magnum loads in the load books today,they even beat the 7STW loads listed.I realize the Weatherby is loaded to a higher pressure and their rifles have a lot of freebore,but really?I picked up a 7STW twelve years ago.It is a 1997 26" barreled Sendero rifle.Along with the purchase,I was given a box of Winchester Power Point ammo.I was working with H1000 and IMR7828 powder at the time and was finding it hard to get 200fps faster than my 26" barreled 7mag loads and it was taking about ten more grain of powder too.I ran a few of those 150gr Winchester factory rounds over my chronograph and I got a sizzling 3450fps out of those factory rounds.I got home and pulled a bullet out of one of the factory rounds and weighed the powder charge.I got 80.0grs.I did a little research and found that Winchester was using Winchester WXR powder for their loads.I know the factories usually use powders sometimes that is not available to the public,but I thought I'd give it a shot.I bought some WXR powder and was able to duplicate those factory velocities with that powder.I know you cannot find any load data for the 7STW that produces those kind of velocities today,but at the time they were marketing that cartridge,Winchester too was producing rifles chambered for it and they were loaded kinda hot compared to todays standards.But getting back to the topic of this post,with the powders we have available today,and experience handloader with a good rifle can safely exceed the velocities of many of the loads listed in some of the manuals today.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~ As Bob Hagel would say"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."Good words of wisdom...............
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You're right, it's all a marketing conspiracy. The fact that the 7mm RUM has considerably more powder capacity than the 7mm STW has nothing to do with it.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~ As Bob Hagel would say"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."Good words of wisdom...............
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Here is a pair of junkie old 264’s. I think a 270 Weatherby is a bit better also. Nice looking Sako's, probably accurate too. The first accurate .264 mag I was around was a Sako! Back in the day (60s & 70s) the pre 64 M70 Westerners I was around didn't seem very accurate, Then later in the 90s I bought one for a donor and had PacNor rebarrel it into a 7 RM, then it was a fine rifle.
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You're right, it's all a marketing conspiracy. Don't forget the lawyers and bean counter conspirators. They take all the fun out of reloading.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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I always figured velocity potential was roughly proportional to sectional density in a case with a given capacity. For example, a .25-06 will drive a bullet to the same velocity as a .270 will, given equivalent sectional densities of the bullets used in each. They'd likely require different powders to make it happen, though. In comparing .270 to .280, though, there's not enough difference in bore diameter to make powder choice a significant factor.
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I just never could get myself to buy a 264 Win Mag because I think the 7mag is a little better.I can get 3200fps with a 150gr Ballistic Tip,my favorite bullet for deer and 3100fps with a 160gr Accubond,another great bullet.Brass is easier to find,great selection of bullets in the 7mm and if you buy shelf ammo,prices for that is cheaper too.I have four 7mags,all are great shooters and they all will shoot the same load very well. I could never get to 3100/160 in any 7mm Rem Mag (24") "until" I used a 26" barrel and R26. R33/175NP got to an easy 3030fps. I like the "idea" of the .264WM, I have a good friend who has used the same, 24" Mod 700 since 1979. He usually shoots factory 140 clkt...a 24" .270 is probably going faster, ha, but he has killed " a huge pile" of deer/hogs with it. I "want" a Weatherby 6.5 RPM!!!
Last edited by Jim_Knight; 09/07/19.
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Accuracy node with 150g with R#25, WLRM is at 3200-3250
Accuracy node with 160-162g with Retumbo, Fed 215 is 3100
All 26" Rem 700 factory barrels
Small groups abound, and we use Gentry muzzle breaks
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In comparing .270 to .280, though, there's not enough difference in bore diameter to make powder choice a significant factor.
Oh NO! now you’ve gone and done it ! ! Man, where U been ? Don’t you know the 280 is far superior to the 270 ? Now you’ll be vanquished from the ‘fire’. Sorry. Some won’t admit the CLOSENESS of those 2 cartridges. I’ve long said, if you have a 270 you have a 280 and Vice Versa. Now we both gotta duck !! Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
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In comparing .270 to .280, though, there's not enough difference in bore diameter to make powder choice a significant factor.
Don’t you know the 280 is far superior to the 270 ? Jerry Of course I do! I just don't like to rub it in...
Don't be the darkness.
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If the 280 is manly and the 270 is metro where does that leave the .264? Singing falsetto in the locker room?
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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280 —> Chuck Norris 270 —> Tom Cruise 264 —> George Michael
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baldhunter,
I wondered where you came up with some of your notions. Unfortunately, while ballisticstudies.com is interesting, it's not the entire body of knowledge on ballistics--especially his notion that it's impossible to get any more velocity from 7mm bullets than can be produced with the 7mm STW. That sort of idea is simply not true, especially since more progressive-burning powders keep appearing.
You might want to check out recent data, such as the latest Hornady and Speer manuals, both published in the past couple of years. Both list the 7mm STW and 7mm RUM, and both happen to use the same barrel lengths for both rounds, 26" in the Hornady and 24" in the Speer. With 160-grain bullets (traditionally considered the best all-around weight for 7mm magnums) the RUM beats the STW by 150-200 fps. Which it should since it has more powder room.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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280 —> Chuck Norris 270 —> Tom Cruise 264 —> George Michael Bruce Lee Fixed it for ya.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
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I'm happy being Chuck Norris!
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280AI = Arnold Schwarzenegger "I think that gay marriage should be between a man and a woman." Not sure what that means?
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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My favorites, in order;
.264 - Sugar Ray Robinson .277 - Rocky Marciano .284 - Sugar Ray Leonard .257 - Roberto Duran .308 - Joe Lewis .338 - George Foreman
What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
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We have killed bull elk side by side , .264 and the .270 with the same bullet and no appreciable difference. The .264 win is one of the best 6.5's ever. The problem with it and most of the belted .284' s is their need of a long barrel. That is the deal breaker, a 22" barrel/ repeating rifle is my criteria. This is where the .270, 280 7/08 and their like shine,imo
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If the 280 is manly and the 270 is metro where does that leave the .264? Singing falsetto in the locker room? ..... and standing in the shower!
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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Like many a young man, I did not fully appreciate how smart my Dad was. A couple of years before we moved to Alaska Dad bought a new old Mod. 70 Westerner in .264 Win. Mag. with the slender 26 inch barrel. He used it for mule deer and antelope in Montana and Wyoming and on fox during the Iowa winters.
When we came to Alaska in 1965 he brought his .264 and a pre 64 in .375 H&H, a .300 Savage Mod. 99 and a fixed up Springfield 03A3 ought six. I used the ought six and Dad stuck with the .264 Winny and 140 grain Partitions driven by a case full of surplus H4831. Dad had complete faith in the rifle and load and that was that. He could see no use for any thing bigger. But, he did say even though he knew he could take a big bear with the .264 the ought six or .375 were better suited for the task at close quarters.
Where does it end and begin with the .264. the .270. the 280, the .284, etc. That's with out all the different case dimensions to factor in. Ya got me, and with the right bullet in the right place at the right impact velocity and depending on whether the critter is inhaling or exhaling and how tough that individual critter is compared to others of it's species, only the critter knows!
If one runs into the "Chuck Norris" of a critter species then all bets are off, I mean why else do we carry extra ammo, ain't because we ever miss or get poor shot placement!
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...the right bullet in the right place at the right impact velocity... You said it ALL, right there. The headstamp doesn't do jackshit.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
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It always amazes me where threads end up leading on the campfire!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I wondered where you came up with some of your notions.
I got a chuckle out of this, and here's why: A close friend I've known since we were second graders comes into town every now and then. His mother still likes to put on a big dinner for the family. She "adopted" me years ago and so I get a call to the big dinner when it happens. When my friend's uncle is there he and my friend's father often wind up talking about how quick/fast cars used to be and how today's cars just don't run like that. Never mind that my friend's bone stock sports sedan parked right there in the driveway would destroy any regular production muscle car (and some special ones too), let alone the older stuff they're stuck on. We always just look at each other and say "notions".
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Campfire 'Bwana
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To me, the 264 in some cool old pre-64 Winchester for standard hunting, syn stocks, twisty scopes with fast twist barrels and long pointy bullets for hunting/shooting a max range, 7mm Magnum.
Trump Won!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Make my 7mm the Mashburn, but I do like my 264 Win. Doesn’t give up much to the 7’s with 140’s at 3150-3200...
Semper Fi
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Make my 7mm the Mashburn, but I do like my 264 Win. Doesn’t give up much to the 7’s with 140’s at 3150-3200... LOL, The Mashburn will get it done Buddy, got a dead coyote laying up there at 566 yards shot at daybreak thirty this morning, he was feasting on the dead pig shot in the same spot last weekend, only took 9 minutes to get that 160gr NAB to his a$$! ; ]
Trump Won!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Nice! That’s a great shot buddy! That’ll build some confidence
Semper Fi
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yessir, no wind, but held a tetch left for drift, nailed that sombitch, heard the bullet whack through my ear plugs, maybe another will be by at dusk to survey the damages. im watching.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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That’s excellent stuff! Hopefully the AB was “tough” enough
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
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LOL, it were, betting that thump I heard was mostly made up of the bullet hitting the dirt bank exiting the coyote, I sent ya a pic of the buffet setting.
Trump Won!
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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It always amazes me where threads end up leading on the campfire! The question was addressed with the first and second posts. The rest is due to not many hunting seasons being open yet and the usual drivel. Please forgive me for my own inane posts which were merely for amusement.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Wait till you put one in a bull!
Semper Fi
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Campfire Tracker
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Regarding the 264 win mag. I have read on several occasions that the original factory load with the 140 gr bullet was using a double diameter bullet. The idea was to minimize bearing surface to mitigate pressures.
Not aware of any double diameter bullets used today. VLD style bullets tend to have a short bearing surface, which might explain how some are getting higher than published velocities with their 264 Win mag. Might be hard to prove as the majority of handloaders are not using a strain gauge to verify pressures.
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
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It always amazes me where threads end up leading on the campfire! The question was addressed with the first and second posts. The rest is due to not many hunting seasons being open yet and the usual drivel. Please forgive me for my own inane posts which were merely for amusement. Tejano - Yes, I know that. Just amused at the responses and how these things go, but it all is entertaining nonetheless. No need for apologies! I appreciate everyone's interest and comments.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Regarding the 264 win mag. I have read on several occasions that the original factory load with the 140 gr bullet was using a double diameter bullet. The idea was to minimize bearing surface to mitigate pressures.
Not aware of any double diameter bullets used today. VLD style bullets tend to have a short bearing surface, which might explain how some are getting higher than published velocities with their 264 Win mag. Might be hard to prove as the majority of handloaders are not using a strain gauge to verify pressures. Then you are not paying attention to detail, Remington factory 140 gr loads are still 2 diameter bullets in the 264 Mag ammo and you might not believe it but they use the same bullet in their 140 gr bullet loading of their factory 6.5 Creedmoor ammo. Winchester still uses the 140 gr 2 diameter Power Point in their factory loads. Your second sentence is on the money, plus the Westerner had a 26" barrel, after that the short barrel whiners screwed up the 3200 fps possibilities. There are several bullet suppliers who still sell the 2 diameter 140 gr .264" Corelokt as a component by the 100 ,Black Hills Shooter supply? MB
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
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Regarding the 264 win mag. I have read on several occasions that the original factory load with the 140 gr bullet was using a double diameter bullet. The idea was to minimize bearing surface to mitigate pressures.
Not aware of any double diameter bullets used today. VLD style bullets tend to have a short bearing surface, which might explain how some are getting higher than published velocities with their 264 Win mag. Might be hard to prove as the majority of handloaders are not using a strain gauge to verify pressures. Azshooter - Yes, you're right about the two diameter bullets. I've got some old Winchester bullets for reloading as well as some Winchester loaded factory ammo, both from the early/mid 1960s, that are the two diameter bullets. I've also heard tell that some of Winchester's current 264 WM factory loaded ammo uses similar two diameter bullets but have yet to actually put my hands on any, so I'm not sure that tale is true. I did locate some two diameter bullets in .264 a few years ago sold by Midway and supposedly made by Remington that are Corelokts. I just recently tried them and to say they were inaccurate would be an understatement. 3-5" "groups" at 100 yards was what I achieved. I suspect they were poorly made and are unbalanced (sort of like the shooter!). You may be right about the newer VLD bullets and shorter bearing surface yielding higher velocities. I've shied away from them since I'm working with a pre64 Westerner that has the slower twist so thought the longer bullets might not stabilize. Maybe I should give them a try and see how they do.
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Joined: May 2005
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
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Regarding the 264 win mag. I have read on several occasions that the original factory load with the 140 gr bullet was using a double diameter bullet. The idea was to minimize bearing surface to mitigate pressures.
Not aware of any double diameter bullets used today. VLD style bullets tend to have a short bearing surface, which might explain how some are getting higher than published velocities with their 264 Win mag. Might be hard to prove as the majority of handloaders are not using a strain gauge to verify pressures. Then you are not paying attention to detail, Remington factory 140 gr loads are still 2 diameter bullets in the 264 Mag ammo and you might not believe it but they use the same bullet in their 140 gr bullet loading of their factory 6.5 Creedmoor ammo. Winchester still uses the 140 gr 2 diameter Power Point in their factory loads. Your second sentence is on the money, plus the Westerner had a 26" barrel, after that the short barrel whiners screwed up the 3200 fps possibilities. There are several bullet suppliers who still sell the 2 diameter 140 gr .264" Corelokt as a component by the 100 ,Black Hills Shooter supply? MB Thanks for that info, Magnum Bob! I did not know all of that concerning the two diameter bullet still being offered in so many places. In your experience, how have these two diameter bullets performed for you? How about the VLD bullets in a slower (older rifle) twist barrel? Thanks!
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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It always amazes me where threads end up leading on the campfire! An OP's question is just the kick-off. Life would be boring if topics never evolved.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The 2 diameter Corelokt in .264" was not Remingtons only use of this design both the 150 & 175 gr Corelokts for the 7 mm Rem Mag are of this design. test1328 I never got that bad of groups with My M700 Ltd Classic but they are not tack drivers either. When you think of 50 to 60% of a bullets length running on top the lands and the rest in the grooves at those kind of velocities, it's sort of amazing you really never hear anyone bitching about lack of accuracy? MB
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910 |
test1328,
I have tested a bunch if different bullets in a pair of .264's, one an original M70 Westerner with a 26" 1-9 twist barrel, and the other a recent Ruger Hawkeye with a 24" 1-8 twist barrel. Had zero problems getting any bullet (including 140 Berger VLD's) to stabilize here in southwestern Montana at around 4000 feet above sea level. Had the same experience with a 1-9 twist 6.5-06 I had for a while around a decade ago, where the 140 VLD was the most accurate bullet.
I doubt you'd have any difficulties in Colorado.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Apr 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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My 9 twist Classic has shot 140 Berger’s and older Amaxs just fine at near see level. Both shot quite well actually. These look like 2 diameter bullets as well.
Semper Fi
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
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test1328,
I have tested a bunch if different bullets in a pair of .264's, one an original M70 Westerner with a 26" 1-9 twist barrel, and the other a recent Ruger Hawkeye with a 24" 1-8 twist barrel. Had zero problems getting any bullet (including 140 Berger VLD's) to stabilize here in southwestern Montana at around 4000 feet above sea level. Had the same experience with a 1-9 twist 6.5-06 I had for a while around a decade ago, where the 140 VLD was the most accurate bullet.
I doubt you'd have any difficulties in Colorado.
Thanks, MD. That's good to know. I'll have to give some a try. I do my target work at around 5,000 ft elevation, but most of my hunting (deer and elk) is done over 10,000 ft. Not sure how much difference that would make.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,710 |
However much, the difference would be in your favor.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910 |
And at 10,000 feet considerably in your favor.
There are several on-line computer formulas that calculate bullet stability in various twists at various elevations and temperatures. I use the ones on the Berger and JBM websites.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,211 |
Wait till you put one in a bull! 10-4, I have no doubt id be dressing that bull in short order after the shot.
Trump Won!
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Campfire Tracker
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The 7mm STW's factory ballistics have never been reduced, because they were developed AFTER the change to electronic testting. But you may be remembering when the 7mm was a wildcat, and many people (Including Layne Simpson) were reporting muzzle velocities close to 3700 fps with 140's and 3500 with 160's. But when Remington pressure-tested those loads, they were way over the long-time SAAMI maximum of 65,000 PSI for ANY cartridge. In fact most were 70,000-75,000 PSI. Whether that is a safe pressure level is another question--but SAAMi prefers to stay on the safe side, so the factory-standard velocities were reduced.
Approximately what chamber pressure flattens Federal 215 primers?
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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StrayDog,
Read my column on "Primer Flattening," posted in March and "stickied" to the top of this forum.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire Tracker
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OK, I read the article and thanks for the direction. It was too easy to go down the seeming logical but wrong trail of reducing the powder reduces the flattening.
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Joined: Dec 2015
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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My favorites, in order;
.264 - Sugar Ray Robinson .277 - Rocky Marciano .284 - Sugar Ray Leonard < this dude cheat`d for his last championship fight , Marvelous Marvin Hagler won that fight . .257 - Roberto Duran .308 - Joe Lewis .338 - George Foreman < Foreman was the best heavy weight boxer of all time nobody could stand and fight with him i own all these cartridges but if i fly to hunt i always take the Rem. 7 mag. reason ammo is easier to find if i need more.
Last edited by pete53; 09/14/19.
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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280 —> Chuck Norris 270 —> Tom Cruise 264 —> George Michael 😂 and the .308> John Wayne
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Posts: 8,185
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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you forgot Tom Sellick ,Tommy Lee Jones,Robert Duvall,Kevin Costner, even Roy Rogers maybe more ?
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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My favorites, in order;
.264 - Sugar Ray Robinson .277 - Rocky Marciano .284 - Sugar Ray Leonard < this dude cheat`d for his last championship fight , Marvelous Marvin Hagler won that fight . .257 - Roberto Duran .308 - Joe Lewis .338 - George Foreman < Foreman was the best heavy weight boxer of all time nobody could stand and fight with him i own all these cartridges but if i fly to hunt i always take the Rem. 7 mag. reason ammo is easier to find if i need more. I agree with you that nobody could stand and fight toe-to-toe with Foreman. But the thing keeping him from being the GOAT is that the rules of boxing do not require the participants to do that. Better boxers exploited George’s weaknesses and defeated him. I 100% agree that Hagler won the fight. I’m not sure Leonard cheated, but he did benefit from a lousy decision. Unfortunately, boxing is known for many such decisions, which opened the door for MMA-style fighting.
What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
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[quote=Azshooter] I did locate some two diameter bullets in .264 a few years ago sold by Midway and supposedly made by Remington that are Corelokts. I just recently tried them and to say they were inaccurate would be an understatement. 3-5" "groups" at 100 yards was what I achieved. . That is the way I remember the performance of several different .264 mags. back in the early 1960s. I suspect it was widespread trend enough to have contributed to the popularity of the 7 RM when it came out in 1962.
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