Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters The "Other" Monos

Hey,

This is my first new thread on the Fire, but I've been following and learning from you guys for years. Thanks to all you knowledgeable folks out there who share so much good info.

Would love some feedback on a couple of the lesser-known bullet makers from you guys who shoot more animals than I do. In the past I've done all my hunting with traditional C&C bullets but I'd like to give some monos a try this year. I hunt up in NY, which means primarily Whitetail deer and I prefer to take lung shots. Based on my reading, it seems like the "popular" monos like the Barnes, E-Tip, GMX, etc might not give me the rapid expansion properties and quick kills that I'm used to on lung shots.

Here's my question. Do any of you guys have experience with Cavity Back Bullets or Hammer Bullets? These two brands take different approaches to rapid expansion, but both seem like they would work well with my preferred shot style. I've already developed some loads with the Hammers this summer, and just discovered CBB, but I'd love to hear from those with prior experience before I head out into the woods in a few months.

Thanks.

I would like to know more about the "Hammer" product. I believe they are made in Montana

I have no experience with either but I just returned from Africa where a group of us used the 180gr. GMX exclusively on a variety of plains game animals. Something like 40 animals were taken, varying in size from eland to springbok. I came away extremely impressed with that bullet. I've also used the TSX extensively and have taken an elk with the E-Tip, all are great bullets.

Have used the Barnes TSX, Hornady GMX and Nosler E-Tip on quite a few animals, and have yet to be able to tell any difference in field performance, or appearance of recovered bullets. Can sometimes see a little difference in penetration when testing in "media," but not much.

Some of the other monos are designed to lose their petals, such as the Cutting Edge Raptor and Hammer, on the theory that the flying petals will result in more internal damage and hence quicker kills. Have only used the Cutting Edge, and have not been able to see any difference so far--but the have not been able to tell any difference in "killing power" in TSX/GMX/E-Tips that lose their petals either.

Generally all of 'em penetrate somewhat deeper than SOME lead-core controlled-expansion bullets, but as far as killing any quicker with the same shot placement dunno.

Jackstraw,
As far back as I can remember there have been some bullets on the fringe that promised all sorts of things, but eventually disappeared.
I have first hand experience with 130 gr ETips out of 270 Winchesters on 7 or 8 NYS whitetails. Performance has been uniformly superb.
There are tons of reliable reports of the consistent performance of the Barnes monos on game world wide.
My standard for 40+ years has been the Partition. That experience tells me that another bullet can hope to be a good as a Partition, but I've never seen anything better.
In other words, I consider the TTSX and ETip monos as good as Partitions, which is to say.... excellent.
I've never seen a CER or Hammer. I sincerely doubt they bring any real "improvement" to the hunt. Causes me to wonder if either will be around very long?
When I get a new caliber or bullet, I spend significant time and money developing a "go to" load, preferring to do this with components that will continue to be available.
Yes, I've been called a luddite and curmudgeon, kinda proud of it.
Good luck with your project. Let us know how it works out. I don't mind being wrong.

FWIW I haven'y used anything but Barnes, and all but a couple of those used were .224 caliber. Shot scores of deer, both mule deer and whitetail with them and the farthest Ive had any of them go was 50 yards...with a 53 Gr TSX in .223. That was a lung shot.

Monos do not kill as quickly, in general, on lung shots, because they don't destroy as much tissue because they don't expand as violently.

For pure lung shots, you'd be hard-pressed to ever beat a C+C. Your best bet with a mono for quick lung shot kills will be the Cutting Edge bullets that blow their petals. If you're using a 30 caliber, the 135 grain Raptor comes highly recommended when driven at high speeds. We have not tried the 125 Maximus but that looks good also.

The other great results we have had (and are using currently due to accuracy and lower price) are the Barnes TTSX black tip 120 grain. This bullet is "softer" as it is designed for the 300 Blackout, but when driven at 308 velocities it still holds together but expands wider than the rest of their line. We like it for more mono destruction even on lung shots. We will probably stick with this bullet until something very different in technology comes along. The 110 black tip works the same but with a lower ballistic coefficient.

I have not used the Hammer yet or even heard of the Cavity Back but have been trying the Lehigh Controlled Chaos bullets some and will do more this season. The Lehigh is a petal shedding design and I have used the 17 caliber and the 85 gr. 25 caliber. So far I am impressed and I think that they may drop at least deer sized game faster than the more traditional monos. The reviews on some of the Lehigh's thought they may have a narrow velocity window but this has mostly been with the Black Out and Whisper cartridges. The 25s I am running at 3,600 fps and I limit shots to 500 yds maximum where they are still going 1,900 fps. Have not taken any deer beyond 250 yds. yet so the verdict is still out.

The Hammer bullet only partially sheds petals except for the Dead Blow design which can fragment up to 60%. The CCB looks to be an attempt to get higher BC by making the bullets longer with the base cavity. They only shed about 10% of their weight according to their web site.

I like testing new bullets but I can't help but think you may be going in the wrong direction if faster kills are the goal. More frangible bullets like the SSTs and most other cup and core bullets may drop game quicker. But this is subjective and I would need a cam and a timer on my scope to be able to discern the slight differences, if there are any.

One thing all the CNC bullets I have tried have been very accurate and consistent. There are so many new bullets it looks like they are running out of names for them all.

My opinion as well... Good luck with your project, though. Always fun to play with new stuff.

Last year was the first time I used Hammer bullets. My first impression is pretty favorable. Shot a few doe with 117 grain Sledgehammers out of my 260 chronoed at 2750. Could have gone higher, but accuracy was .68 @100 yards. Several observations. These were easy to get a really nice group with. This was from a gun that if I got .9 group, i was really happy. So if you follow their recommendations for load development, it should be pretty easy. As far as performance, all died quickly. farthest went maybe 40 yards. Not much bloodshot meat, but I did hit offside shoulder in one, and ended up throwing that one away. On youtube there is a guy that shoots a lot of hogs with a 6.5 creedmoor. He tested the 130 grain sledgehammers, and was impressed with how hard they hit. I think they are certainly a viable option, and if I was forced to use mono's I would probably use them in everything. As it is, I plan on using them again in my 260 this year. Disclaimer: I never shot Barnes TTSX or anything like that, so I can't compare them to other mono bullets.

If I had to use a mono because of the regs, I would but I'm curious why you would use them if you don't need to if quicker expansion and faster kill is your goal which it should be. Barnes wouldn't have brought out the TTSX if they thought that TSX was the be all end all. It surely wasn't when I gunned a few deer with them and saw minimal expansion and weak blood trails.

As a follow-up to my previous post, here is a (bad) photo of a series of GMXs recovered from various African animals. The bullets on the left end were longer shots with lower impact velocities, with distances decreasing as you move to the right. The bullet on the far right is an ELD-X.

Great picture, do you have an idea of distance and what they were shot out of?

This discussion took place over a few Castle beers so don't hold me to it, but I believe the left two were around 250-yards and the far right GMX was about 60.

Having shot a maybe 3 dozen with Barnes/GMX/E-Tips in the lungs and found the vast majority of them reduced the lungs to red soup, I will stand up and say the above is BS pure plain and simple. You don't wreck lungs worse than that and what happens after is a result of the individual deer and MAYBE some difference in shock effect but that would be an exceedingly difficult thing to prove.

Certainly, your mileage might vary. But I've shot plenty of deer in the lungs with TTSX, and no they don't always (in fact rarely in my experience) truly reduce lungs to red soup. Sure, they cause bleeding, but they in no way tear up lungs quickly like a more-violent expanding bullet. In fact, I have had more than one lung shot deer not expire quickly when shot with TSX/TTSX due to the minimal amount of shrapnel being thrown around (both the 30 caliber 150 TSX and the 243 80 TTSX have left me with long tracking jobs on minimal blood trails).

For bone shooters, the monos make a caliber seem bigger than it is; for lung shooters, the monos make the caliber seem smaller.

I dunno, but for shooting hogs and deer I prefer a more frangible C&C bullet like a Sierra Game King or a Nosler Ballistics Tip. Hogs aren't elephants and if you hit em in the ribs or even forward of there they usually die fast. Deer the same way. I've killed probably 75 deer with Core Lokt, Game King, and Ballistic Tips. A few years back my son got to experimenting with Barnes and some of the other monos. He went back to Game Kings and Ballistic Tips. He said he got tired of tracking deer in the dark. I would save the tough bullets for bigger game unless you're unfortunate enough to live in a lead free state like California.

Thanks for all the comments thus far.

There are no restrictions (yet) on lead bullets for hunting up here, thankfully. My desire to experiment with monos comes from the fact that my young kids eat a lot of venison and the lead-in-your-meat thing is probably not a big deal... but maybe it is? I don't know and don't really want to start a war about it, the science seams unclear at best. I fully support people hunting with whatever they want to hunt with, I'm just curious to see if I can find a mono that performs like a C&C on lung shots.

The Cavity Back bullets promise over 2x expansion, which is wayyyy beyond what anyone else is promising. That's what caught my eye (don't really care about the actual cavity on the back) on those. Maybe that extra wide expansion will make a noticeable difference in "time of death" and provide better blood trails if needed?

And, as has been mentioned, the Hammers promise fragmentation and a flat metplat on the remaining core, which should cause disproportionate wounding... theoretically.

I wish I could go on a cull hunt and do some experimenting, but I don't want to experiment during the season, as long tracks up in this area of the woods are uncool. I hunt small properties and chasing wounded deer is a nightmare.

I have killed deer with Barnes, GMXs and E-Tips. I can't tell the difference between them so what I have to say applies to all of them. When I shoot deer in the chest it wrecks the lungs. Thoroughly. When I shoot just lungs and do not destroy the heart I see better (more often) blood trails. My belief is that the monos with their tendency toward smaller holes in the hide also tend to get those smaller holes plugged with debris more often. My experience when taking out the heart which reduces blood pressure to zero instantly is that monos and cup and core bullets have similar instances of poor blood trails. The monos tend to always exit, the cup and cores much less often make an exit. The premium bonded core heavy jacket bullets I have used much less. This comes as no surprise, no blood pressure makes it much harder for the blood to get out and no exit leaves one less hole to leak from. I have had one deer with zero blood trail despite an exit and a three inch hole through and leaving the heart loos in the chest. I have had one with a very poor blood trail because the exit was high on the neck and the entrance was behind the diaphragm and plugged by the omentum. I had one poor blood trail because the lungs and heart were completely shredded and despite a fistful of tissue where the deer stood, there was still plenty to plug a very large exit hole. The longest distance traveled by any of the deer I have killed with monos was ~70 yards. I have witnessed just over 100 deer killed with monos I have loaded and I think four made it over 100 yards, three were gut shot and one was shot in the knee. I know of none of those 100 that were shot in the chest and made it more than 70 yards.

Do a decent job putting a mono where it belongs and I do not find they run any further than common cup and core loads. Somewhere between 30% and 40% of the deer I have killed with monos dropped where they stood.