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Calhoun Offline OP
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This raises it's head every year or two.

Take a Savage 22HP, which has a .222" diameter bore and .227" diameter lands (give or take 1/1000th on each). Original bullet diameter for this in 1911 was .227"-.228".

But those bullets are kinda hard to find that are short enough to stabilize in a 22HP twist. So, some use the more common .224" bullets.

Will the pressure cause the copper jacket on .224" bullets to fill the .227" lands very quickly when it hits the lands, thus sealing the barrel and preventing gas escape? Or will the gas leak past and start eroding the lands?

It would need to swage the bullet out .003".

Copper is soft and flows easily under pressure, and I think the jacket would quickly fill the lands. Others feel differently.

Thoughts?


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I suspect that the 60-grain Nosler Partition, for one .224 bullet, tend to fill in the grooves, because the exposed rear core tends to allow the expanding powder gas to "bump up" the bullet. Partly I suspect this because it was one of the most accurate bullets in my last .22 HP--and have also had Partitions shoot well in other over-sized barrels, such as the 180 and 220 Partitions in some (not all) .303 British rifles.

As for increasing erosion, that would also depend on how much you shot the rifle.


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Calhoun Offline OP
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Thanks, John. I hadn't thought about the exposed rear of the Partition, I was thinking of the copper at the front of the bullet filling the lands as the .224" bullet is squeezed thru a .222" hole.

But your theory is probably right, especially if you get a slightly off bore that's .223" with lands that are .228" (within mfr tolerances). That'd be less copper pushed around and more empty space in the lands to fill, and the Partition might be better in that scenario than other full jacketed bullets.


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Almost all bullets swell or obturate when the pressure increases against the base. The bullet base will deform or bulge, effectively sealing the bore. This happens quickly. The amount that the base will deform depends on the jacket thickness and the purity of the lead. Also, the length of the leade. After the case is pushed against the chamber, the slightly larger circumferential area of the leade allows the base to swell before it enters the rifled portion of the barrel.


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Yes, all bullets obturate somewhat--but some more than others.

One of the pieces of advice I've posted here, more than once (as has kududue, Steve Timm) came from Gail Root, for years the head bullet designer for Nosler: If Partitions don't shoot well with a particular powder, try a faster-burning powder, which tends to bump up Partitions more.


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It's not uncommon for production jacketed bullets to be under groove diameter and for production barrels to measure around .001-.0015 larger. Sometimes up to .002.
The composition of the bullet also plays a role.

A 1inch mic will tell you about the bullets, a lead slug will about the bore.

I'd like to get my hands on a 22 High Power; I think its maligned because it has been jacked with bullets that aren't adequate for twist, die and brass irregularities and bullets used as an afterthought.

It's like the 45 Colt of rifle cartridges.

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Calhoun Offline OP
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I have a couple of 22HP's, they are a blast to shoot. With 60gr Partitions edging towards 3000fps, I think it'd be a good little hunting round. I've got some, but I still have boxes of S&B and Norma to shoot up so haven't got to reloading yet.


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Nate,

I've had two .22 HP's, both the original Savage 99 take-down model. They both shot well with the right .224 bullet, but one of the other "problems" that can plague .22 HP's of that era is the rifling twist. Savage used sine-bar machines, which could result in somewhat variable twists. Have owned old 99's that had twists an inch (or a little more) different from the "listed twist."

This can cause interesting problems with bullet stability. One old .250-3000 actually had a 1-15 twist, rather than the then-standard 1-14, and would NOT shoot any lead-cored 100-grain bullet accurately, even here in Montana at 4000+ feet elevation in summer. Even the 100-grain Speer Hot-Cor grouped into 3-5".=, when it had grouped very well with other slow-twist .250's, Finally had to go to the 87-grain Hot-Cor (which was apparently originally designed for the 1-14 twist) to get decent groups.

The problem can be compounded with .22 HP's because the most commonly available bullet supposedly made for the cartridge was the 70-grain .227 Hornady Interlock Spire Point. However, from what I understand this was actually made for the Euro-equivalent cartridge, the 5.6x52R, used over there in break-action rifles for shooting smaller big game. They usually have about a 1-10 twist, not the nominal 1-12 of the .22 HP Savage 99's.

Consequently the Hornady bullet doesn't always shoot very well, because its length is marginal for a 1-12 twist. In fact neither one of the .22 HP 99's I handloaded for would group it worth a darn either--though the first one (purchased long before the 60-grain Partition appeared) shot pretty well with the 60-grain .224 Hornady spitzer.


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In my (somewhat limited) experimentation with the .22 HP I have gotten the best results with .224 63 grain Sierra semi-pointed bullets.


Mathew 22: 37-39



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That would definitely be another one to try.


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Two .22 HP's I've fooled with actually shot better with the .224 dia. 55gr Sierra and the 55gr Speer than with the .227 Hornady's. 3031 did very well.
Going a little further with "groove to bullet fit", I have done extensive load development with the 7.62x53R Finn m-39 at 600 yards. Excellent results with .311 and .312 dia. projectiles shot in a bore that slugs .315. Which more or less confirmed an old article in Precision Shooter, done some years back. In a nutshell it was a compilation of tests of barrel wear longevity done by various governments using their own service rifles. IIRC, the '03 Springfield (.308/.308) showed a marked decrease in accuracy after 10K rounds, the '96 Moisin Nagant (.310/.314) had a roller coaster graph of decreasing accuracy to 14K rounds and then amazingly increasing accuracy up to 20K where the test was halted. This has nothing to do with the op, but I thought it was interesting.


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Well, I guess I'm the naysayer that Calhoun was referring to. I've shot the .22 HP probably as much as any body has, and more than most. I've put thousands of shots through my selection of .22 HP's.

You can't just look at groove diameter, IMO. One must also consider throat diameter. With throats running to .229 (and larger) that presents even more opportunity for hot welding-temperature gasses to burn past the .224 bullet before it obturates to seal the bore. Out of five barrels I've done chamber casts on, one had a .228 throat, one had a .230 throat, and the rest were .229. Again due to analog manufacturing performed by actual human beings, chamber/throat/bore dimensions in these old rifles can be all over the map (and usually are).

Ten or fifteen years ago I would've blessed anyone seeking to use .224's in their guns due to the crappy performance of the only domestic bullet available at the time- the Hornady 70 grain spire point. John outlined its foibles succinctly. Now though, with boutique bullet makers offering jacketed bullets for the .227/.228 barrels there really isn't a good reason to use .224's IMO. Buffalo Arms, Reed's, Schroeder, all offer .228's in a variety of weights and lengths, most of which are suitable for Savage HiPower use. Cast bullet purveyors on GB continuously offer nice stuff too. Further, with a little creative searching on the Innerwebs one can scrounge up old discontinued Speer .227 70 grainers, Sisks of 50-70 grain weight, European offerings from Norma and RWS (just be careful of what you're buying), and leftover Hornady 70 grain spire points. If the Hornady's don't shoot for you, it's simple to make a file trim die to shorten their noses sufficiently to change that.

Ultimately though, the simplest/most elegant solution IMO is to snag a bullet mould and make your own and size them to fit the individual throat. They're cheap (almost free), accurate, and make the same size holes in paper that jacketed bullets do- and remember, rarely if ever has a barrel been worn out by shooting soft cast lead bullets, something to keep in mind when burning up a 100+ year old barrel that you like to shoot a lot.


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Calhoun Offline OP
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Wasn't a question of a "nay-sayer", I was just looking to get educated. When I read that the bore in a 22HP could be .223" and still be within mfr'ing specs, I started wondering if .224's would even get enough grip to stabilize well. Which fits into the whole "undersized" bullets thing.

But as to the throat.. I didn't think bullets should ever seal the throat in any gun. That happens which it hits the lands. So does it matter if there is 0.002" clearance between the side of the bullet and the side of the throat vs 0.005"? If anything I'd think the increased space would serve to slow down the gas's rush forward rather than make it worse (though that "slowing down" would be minuscule).

Would happily trade a couple of the programming languages I've learned over the years for some engineering knowledge. grin


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Gas blow-by definitely affects throat erosion, the reason shooting boattails tends to erode throats faster than flat-base bullets.

The question here is how much you intend to shoot the rifle. If you plan to use it as a prairie dog gun, then the barrel will obviously burn out quicker than if you use it for occasional deer hunting--or even coyote hunting. My guess is that if used on deer, antelope, etc. the barrel would last a long time.

And if it did happen to burn out, you could get it rebored to .25-35!


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I like how that man thinks!!

I may be alone in shooting the .22HP as much as I do. If I were a box-of-shells-a-year kind of guy, meh, hand me the .224's and be done with it.

I'm feeling too lazy to go look at the SAAMI drawings, but am I remembering correctly that the dimensions of the .25-35 are slightly smaller than the .22HP, thus negating a reaming to that chamber? (A slightly off-base .25 wildcat wouldn't be far fetched though. A simple re-bore and use .25-35 dies would probably be just peachy.)


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Case dimensions of the .22 HP and .25-35 are pretty much identical--except, of course, for neck diameter.


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Originally Posted by Calhoun
Wasn't a question of a "nay-sayer", I was just looking to get educated. When I read that the bore in a 22HP could be .223" and still be within mfr'ing specs, I started wondering if .224's would even get enough grip to stabilize well. Which fits into the whole "undersized" bullets thing.

But as to the throat.. I didn't think bullets should ever seal the throat in any gun. That happens which it hits the lands. So does it matter if there is 0.002" clearance between the side of the bullet and the side of the throat vs 0.005"? If anything I'd think the increased space would serve to slow down the gas's rush forward rather than make it worse (though that "slowing down" would be minuscule).

Would happily trade a couple of the programming languages I've learned over the years for some engineering knowledge. grin


If you have or can get Ken Waters' Pet Loads with his 1983 findings on the 22 Imp, its pretty interesting. I think his biggest issue is the often seen, old school "need" of full length re-sizing. The aforementioned mis-match of stable bullets, die and brass (and bullet) discrepancies along with re-shaping the fired cases to resemble his die and not so much the chamber all caused havoc. Granted he was using a lever gun, but partial re-sizing can be done so in these arms without having chambering issues.


You will find he had very good success with the 63 Sierra and 70 Speer semi-points, both .224. A simple change out of the expander ball should improve accuracy a bit if using the smaller diameter bullets. Both were simple jacketed, nearly pure lead cored, flat based bullets that would obturate a bit. As a note, his gun detested sleek 70 grain .227's and even the 60grain Hornady .224. This is where the twist and bullet shape failed.


I can tell you a seal in the throat, especially with a bullet similar in shape and diameter to the throat, greatly helps accuracy. Cast bullet shooters and benchrest shooters alike try to make case necks and the bullets used fit as tightly as possible, without creating pressure or function issues. Primarily its to eliminate tipping, but in the case with cast bullets its to provide support from bullet imbalance and seal from case mouth all the way to the muzzle crown. If we don't have this seal with cast in a revolver throat will will have leading and accuracy issues. With jacketed bullets, we will see forcing cone erosion increase.


Most benchrest bullets incorporate a groove diameter seal, or pressure ring, at the bullet base; the neck, throat and leade are cut to be used with specific bullets to cut down on tipping, match each other to create a seal from case mouth to muzzle crown along with eliminating re-sizing of the cartridge upon being reloaded.

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I would try it with the 70 grain Speer Semi-Spitzer. Jackets are thin enough to allow obturation so with the right powder I am thinking it may upset to fill the rifling. The shorter length of the bullet in comparison to it's weight (because of it's somewhat blunt shape) will hopefully allow the bullet to stabilize in the 1-14 twist. The weight will cause better obturation because the the additional standing momentum as compared to a lighter bullet. For a bullet to obturate and still be accuract the nose of the bullet must set back evenly so it is not grosly off-sides, and the use of a blunt or flat nosed bullet is more likely to set back in the center then one that is longer.

I learned a lot about bullet use when I was working at Cast Performance as their ballistician and later as their CEO. So what I say next is gospel.
If the theory and the fact disagree, you will instantly know which is wrong. So with that said, try the 70 grain Speer and if all my ideas here, based in theory from my time in the lab...........if it doesn't work..........I was WRONG! But there is little to loose from trying.
The thing that makes you hair fall out is that the very next time you try it, in a supposedly identical rifle, (could be one made the next week) it may work perfectly.

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Calhoun Offline OP
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Great info from all. Thanks, guys.


The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”.
All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered.
Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com

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