Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire HVAC Labor Rate Question

Lennox has offered to replace the compressor on my daughter’s 7 year old outdoor unit. She’ll have to pay labor + refrigerant costs, per the extended warranty she bought @ the time of purchase.

The installer quoted $1,760. Is that in the ballpark for a 3 ton system?

Part of me thinks it’s high. Then again, they’re basically replacing the heart of a 7 year old system, so that would be kind of a “cheap” way to have a nearly-new outdoor unit.

What says the ‘Fire?

Thanks,

FC

I'd shop them, but it will have to be with Lennox dealers, so you may not see much variance.

R22 is crazy expensive now, and labor rates in HVAC are nutz.

Change the unit yourself, then call and have it recharged.

I have been out of it a few years now but $150 to $200/hr would not be too far out of line and it will take all day do do a job like that, so 8 hours = $1200.00 to $1600.00. Removing/recovering the old refrigerant, purging the system during the compressor install, pulling a vacuum and recharging the unit takes time. Remember when you are paying the hourly rate you are paying for the trucks, tools, and most likely a mechanic and helper plus margin/profit. One top of that they will charge for expendables like nitrogen, silver and flux, etc.

Unless the compressor had a failure that burnt and contaminated the refrigerant or the new compressor is not compatible with the old refrigerant I am not sure why they would not recover the refrigerant and re-install it, therefore not needing new refrigerant.

I always recommend getting a second opinion on any work of this type, sometimes a new set of eyes can be a little more efficient.

Seems way over priced, but if it is 22 then there will be a premium to pay for that. It's possible to convert over to 404a or 410a with just changing out a couple of cheap components.(dryer and expansion valve I think) Check with your repair guy, but if 22 was $100 a pound and you need 4-5 pounds, then they are charging you $1300 dollars or so for labor. That job will never take more than a few hours if you are just changing out the compressor and dryer. And R22 will be outlawed very soon. What if you need to fix a leak later. If possible, I would definitely check into a different gas since the compressor is the biggest component to change out.

Disclaimer, I am by no means an HVAC tech, but I do run the maintenance program for my facility, and we have had several R22 units converted over to 410a. Usually takes them around 6 hours, and this is for 10 ton compressors on top of my 25ft roof. Seems like a residential unit which is easily acessible would be much easier to service. 410a usually runs around $250 to $350 for a 10 ton unit.

Just my .02

Clyde

seems high, they get 75-85 an hour in my neck of the woods. I wouldn't think an entire new condenser/compresser would be much more than that. My buddy just put a 3 ton carrier outside unit for about 2k, and I just had an entire 5ton carrier system installed 6300.

Id get a 2nd and 3rd opinion.

Have to agree here. Had my entire HVAC system changed out in 2015. $6400 (everything American Standard)

5 ton condenser
moved to other side of house(had to run electrical and suction lines)
new air handler/evaporator, which included gas heater(old unit was a vertical in the wall, new unit is horizontal in the attic)
new plenum and ducts
new registers

$1760 for just the labor on a compressor is more than 1/4 of my entire system. Just sounds like he is paying a premium for the time of year.


Clyde

Gotta know a little more. Some things to consider....

Is the current system r-22? Or 410a?

If r-22 is it being converted to a different refrigerant? Starting next year r22 can no longer be produced or imported.

Why did the system fail? Compressor short? Refrigerant can be reused it the system didn’t leak or become contaminated. Was it a Burn out- system will have to be flushed.


Labor is expensive. R-22 is expensive. Converting from r-22 to another refrigerant takes more time/parts.

Addressing the questions:

Her Lennox 13 ACX, 3 ton, 410A was installed in a home that didn't have AC prior. $2,700, total.

She had a furnace and water heater installed simultaneously (Jan, 2012), and the total price was $9185. The contractor who did the work was bought-out by the outfit that wants $1,760 in labor to do the compressor replacement.

FWIW, this outfit has already replaced items on this unit under the extended warranty:

7/6/2018 - "Relay" and "Cap", $564 in labor
7/22/19 - "Dual capacitor * 45 + 5 MFD", along with with furnace & A/C maintenance and a "trip & diagnostic fee", $495

She's also paid them for regular maintenance along the way.


FC

#1 – You “CAN NOT” convert a R22 refrigerant system to R410a refrigerant. The R22 system’s copper is not designed to operate “SAFELY” at the higher pressures of the R410a refrigerant.

#2 – $75- $80 per / hr labor rates is what it cost “over” 20 years ago to cover costs to run a “LEGITIMATE” business on the residential side in the HVAC trade, not a fly-by-night operation who haven’t the slightest clue what they are doing, including not having the first clue about the business side / finance (knowing what their O/H is and what they need to charge to make a 10% NET) and have enough to grow their business and pay respectable living wages.

Today’s “COST ALONE” for a “residential” service truck, with one tech, running down the road is around $115+ per/hr, so how can the company make money when you guys here think they need to be charging 20+ years ago rates, $75-$80?

Today’s copier repair businesses charge presently around $150 per/hr with only $300 worth of tools in their carry bag. I think an electrical / plumbing / HVAC service truck has “just a few” (heavy sarcasm) more dollars in O/H and tools.

Ford dealer charges 150 per / hr labor rates.

Mercedes dealer charges $200 per / hr labor rates.

The copier guy and the dealers get to bill out 2,000 billable hours per year.

The HVAC residential side (SEASONAL BUSINESS) only gets to bill out 1,000-1,200 billable hours a year. THAT MEANS THEY HAVE TO CHARGE TWICE the rate, because they don’t have the number of billable hours to bring it down to dealership / copier rates.

$275,000 gross (1 service truck yearly gross) / 1,000 (billable hours) = $275 per / hr.

If they could bill out 2,000 billable hours it’d look like this below, but it is FINANCIALLY IMPOSSIBLE if you want to be a LEGITIMATE business.

$275,000 gross (1 service truck yearly gross) / 2,000 (billable hours) = $137.50 per / hr.
(CAN NOT WORK FINANCIALLY)

You see that? It’d be $137.50 per / hr, even IF they “could” get 2,000 billable hours…NOT $75-$80 that YOU BRAIN TRUSTS think they should be charging.

Reality is, trades never get the full 2,000 billable hours. You’re doing good if you get 1,700 billable hours in electrical, plumbing, HVAC commercial, other contracting disciplines.

But hey, keep telling everyone they need to keep “searching” for that “CHEAP GUY”,…….so you can have the job REPAIRED correctly down the road, when you have to have it done again, because it was not done right the first time, since you “brain trusts” advise people to hire a guy who works CHEAP for “beer money”.

After all………it won’t cost you “brain trusts” a dime out of your pocket down the road when it got hacked in and broke again…….will it?

And which one of you “brain trusts” thinks a guy who doesn’t have the first clue about running the financial side of his business right and billing what a LEGITIMATE business needs to grow and stay in business, which one of you thinks that cheap azz contractor, billing at beer money wages, knows the technical side good enough to do the job correctly?

Here’s the laughable part…none of you have visibly seen the job. None of you are contractors. None of you know the “SCOPE” of the job…but you “know” what needs to be charged, and not one of you would cut your pay voluntarily, yet you sit here on a public forum spouting your UNEDUCATED tripe to cut another man’s pay trying to make a living and run a LEGITIMATE business, so he can pay his men a good wage…so they can buy their sons / daughters guns and fishing rods / reels to take their sons / daughters fishing and hunting.

$1,760 is cheap to R-R a warranty residential compressor. Average is 2,200-2,500.

It’s an “all day” 8+ hour job when you add running to the supply house to get parts. It is 6-7 hours ON THE JOB “if…done…correctly”.

Thank you very much for those last 2 sentences.

The current complaint is that the thing wouldn't cool 6 weeks ago, and has made a horrible grinding noise since that time, but only intermittently. The company wasn't taking her seriously until I accompanied her when they came out. At that point she played them several audio recordings of the noise, and they immediately understood something had to be very wrong for that sound to ever come from an A/C unit.

In your opinion, do the relay, cap, and/or capacitor shed any more light on what might be going on?

Thanks in advance,


FC

Check your PM messages.

A good HVAC tech probably makes 40.00 an hour.

I think its pretty darn high if you ask me. one thing I have found is HVAC people aren't created equal. some will say crap needs to be replaced that really doesn't. like oh you have a cracked HX in the furnace. its gotta be replaced. For one thing its not that common for that to happen and for 2 those old furnaces have less crap on them that can break. I have a couple guys I use that I trust to not inflate or overstate the bill or say crap needs to be replaced that doesn't have to be. Those are the guys I use.

** First thing to check is your warranty to see if it was parts and labor (our Lenox warranty’s are both, Goodman and others are part only).

Work wise it’s a bit of work -
To change the compressor you have to vacuum out the system first and reclaim the Freon.
Then you change out the compressor.
Then you vacuum the system out and input nitrogen
Then you re-install the Freon... at least 4 hours probably for a couple of guys./

This is NOT something one can do themselves.


I would call the service manager and talk to him about the cost, he will often knock it down for you if you are not a problem customer.
If you already paid money for service calls you should be able to get that knocked off too.

Ask if they are charging you for all new Freon... you shouldn’t have to pay for that if it’s in the price it can be removed.
R22 (old systems) costs jumped from 125 per 20 lbs to over 600... and those guys have some serious mark ups to cover all the equipment and vehicle overheads.

I formerly worked for a Plumbing/ HVAC/Electrical Contractor..(I am a Master Electrician)
Plumbing/HVAC flat rate was $385 per flat rate hr..


Contractor was in Portage Michigan..

Yep, $385 x 6 hrs “billable” labor for the job = $2,310. Add 100 - 200 more for parts and supplies used for the job: welding supplies, copper pipe fittings, vac oil, misc, time filing warranty claim paperwork back at office, and you’re at 2,500 for the job….just like I said for a “legit” business, not a flunky who has no clue how to run a business charging beer money rates.

I get 2 1/2 ton, Trane or Lennox 14 seer heatpumps put in 3 Br 2 bath 1300' +/- homes for $5,500.00 from one of four different local contractors. On crawl space with inside unit hung from joists, flex duct off main trunk.

Guess your area is a lot different.
$90/hr tops for a good diesel mechanic. Plumbers $75/hr for a plumber AND a helper. Electricians $45/hr tops carpenters $30-$35/hr tops.

The last compressor I replaced was a similar charge to the customer.

I’m not a big fan of reusing refrigerant, especially on 410a systems, mostly because I really don’t like replacing compressors. The oil used in a 410 systems really likes to absorb moisture from the air, that oil becomes acidic and takes out the insulation on the motor windings.

It used to be that pulling the vacuum would remove the moisture from the system but on the 410 any moisture needs to be removed by the filter drier. If the system had a nasty burnout that filter drier may need to be replaced a couple of times.