24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 668
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 668


This subject could have been put in the wildcat column, but most of those lads just stare at anything involving
a lever action vintage rifle or cartridge. So it belongs here:

I try to research my topics, as its more enjoyable to speak from knowledge and experience.
The .348 WCF cartridge is a balanced and powerful cartridge. For most-it is enough gun-as Robert Ruark used to say in Africa.

But for some applications, bigger may be better. I own a 348 Ackley Improved and two (2) of the 450's: a 450 Alaskan and 450 Fuller in original early pre-war long tang Model 71
Winchester rifles.
The 348 Ackley Imp is akin to the 35 Whelen in ballistics. PO Ackley considered it a favorite, as it DELIVERED on velocity. As much as 200 FPS with 250 gr bullets
over factory WW silvertips.John Kronfeld did more research and articles on the 348 wildcats then most any published Wolfe Pub writer. Some of his data is
in old Rifle-Handloader magazines. His load development with 4350 powder is good but other powders work.

The real utility of the wildcat 450s and even the 348 AI begins and ends in the inter-mountain states, Alaska and Canada. I think Elmer Keith may have carried
his 450 Alaskan to Africa.
The real practicality of the 450s and 50 Alaskan is bear stopping when in bear country. The 450 Fuller is a rare chambering, developed by Bill Fuller in Cooper Landing,
Alaska by Bill Fuller. Fuller was Harold Johnson's riflesmith. Mine came from Alaska and was made by JKR. After Johnson developed the 450 Alaskan, it was Bill Fuller who cut the reamers for all of the JKR-Johnson-Kenai Rifles at Cooper Landing. PO Ackley followed with the 458-348 chambering. This wild cat eliminates all of the slope angle
in the case and requires some modification of the action and anchoring the magazine tube due to tremendous recoil.
The 50 Alaskan was developed by Johnson and known originally in the 1950s as "the 50".The barrel came from a surplus 50 BMG. For those requiring maximum power for bears from the 348 WCF case-this is the way to go with 50 caliber bullets. Recoil limits repeat shots somewhat.

Interestingly, my 450 Fuller cartridges may be fired in the 450 Alaskan but not conversely. This is due to the 16 degree shoulder angle in the Fuller compared to the Alaskan
shoulder of 30-40 degrees. Both are capable of driving a 400 gr FP bonded core bullet to 1900-2000 FPS. This is plenty enough
energy and velocity for any brown or grizzly. The heavy wildcats were developed to STOP bears generally close or charging the hunter or bear guide.
Finishing shots may be needed with any caliber, but a heavy wildcat will stop the bear before he starts clawing or biting you or yours. Johnson killed
a few grizzly and Alaskan coastal brown bears during his lifetime with the Alaskans in 1886 and Winchester Model 71 rifles. He developed these cartridges
due to questionable performance of a 30-06 rifle and cartridge performance on a grizzly.

My 348 Ackley Imp has stopped a large Alaskan moose in the interior in 2007. This rifle was also around when smaller black bears visited the gut pile.
With today's bullets such as the Woodleigh, Swift, Hawk and Alaska Bullet Works-- and rare grizzly encounters, one may not need a 348 wildcat all the time when fly fishing Canadian or Alaskan streams. But in salmon streams infested with brown bear and-grizzlies, its nice to pack a heavier rifle for insurance-and know its there if needed.


"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt
There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
BP-B2

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,499
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,499
Interesting write-up.

I had a Model 71 Browning some years back, and always thought the heavily-tapered .348 case would gain quite a bit of performance if given the "A.I." treatment. Of course, there is enough case capacity to push those .458 slugs at a reasonable velocity.

I really wouldn't care for the recoil generated, those stocks can't be the best design for recoil management, but the rifles themselves handle and point very good. I would feel well-armed in bear country with either of the two wildcats you mention.

Thanks again.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
M
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
M
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
The Johnson kenai rifle shop building and sign were still standing seven years ago. I went to the museum in Cooper Landing but it was closed. Called the phone number and a very nice lady came and opened it. Ended up at her house going through pictures, found some of Johnson in the bush hunting. Her husband has a muzzler loader made by Bill fuller in 58 caliber. He loaded two balls in it for hunting.
She called Johnson's son in Anchorage and I talked with him a bit. Said he had one of dads rifles but didn't hunt with it or sell it. Very interesting day on the Kenai. Maude Fuller owned the shop but wasn't allowing anyone to go into it. Probably a rusty mess now.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
M
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
M
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
The Johnson kenai rifle shop building and sign were still standing seven years ago. I went to the museum in Cooper Landing but it was closed. Called the phone number and a very nice lady came and opened it. Ended up at her house going through pictures, found some of Johnson in the bush hunting. Her husband has a muzzler loader made by Bill fuller in 58 caliber. He loaded two balls in it for hunting.
She called Johnson's son in Anchorage and I talked with him a bit. Said he had one of dads rifles but didn't hunt with it or sell it. Very interesting day on the Kenai. Maude Fuller owned the shop but wasn't allowing anyone to go into it. Probably a rusty mess now.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
M
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
M
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
I've used my 35/348 imp and 450 Alaskan a lot in the field. Tremendous killer that 450. The 35 is as well once I got some Kodiak 250 flat nose. Shot a lot Hornady 250 round nose which is a great bullet. These two rifles were built by the same gunsmith, nicely stocked and with full length magazine tubes. Bought the 35 at a gun show on my birthday and the 450 it not long after from the same gentleman. Can't find who built them but he did well.
The buttstock on the 450 began crumbling or something. Took it to Fred Wenig and they restocked it the same day to fit me. I took it home and finished it.
I have two sets of RCBS dies for the 450, they're about identical in dimension. I only need one if anyone's is interested

Last edited by moose444; 12/10/17.
IC B2

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 668
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 668
That is interesting. I have been meaning to drift down to the Southeast like the ABC Islands and Kodiak for the salmon runs on the creeks.
If one gets there early, the fish are OK Sharing with the bears requires a heavy rifle. You can smoke salmon right by the creeks.

Allen Haselborg was a well known hermit on Admiralty Island as was Gambier Bay Jim. Haselborg kept two 1895 Winchesters in 405. I have owned a few of these
and they will work on heavy game. The repair record and 300 gr bullet does not measure up to the 1886/Model 71 IMHO. There was a US Forest Service LE officer killed very close to the West Glacier entrance. He hit a 6 yr old grizzly with his mtn bike as he rounded the gravel trail.
Its the surprise encounters that call for the 450s as a not so solid fast shot will keep them busy until you can finish them. A mad or adrenalin-stoked grizzly will even the score.
For me personally-I won't go timber hunting in Alaska with anything less than a 348 Ackley with heavy bullets. The Alaska Bullet Works and Woodleighs are hard to beat.
The Swifts are well made and expensive. Alaska Bullet Works probably make the best FP 400 gr for the money. Hawl Bullets also make a dependable FP 400 grain.

I have an extra stock for the 450 Fuller. The original that came with the rifle was highly figured walnut with Super Grade sling swivels as on the Deluxe Model 71.
It has a heavy barrel. The 450 Alaskan utilizes the re-bored original Winchester barrel-rechambered. I like the rapid taper M71 barrel and its balance
is great for stalk hunting. No need to shoot it a lot-it has one purpose and the sights are set. The 35-348 IMP was probably a good idea before good bullets came to be. There was always Noslers and they are hard to beat for penetration. I'll keep your dies in mind, Moose. I have a complete set of RCBS re-form dies for 450-50AK. They come in handy


"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt
There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
M
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
M
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
I've been packing a 500 Smith and Wesson carbine of late. Lighter and a bit handier than the 71s. Plenty of power plus a bigger hole. Friend of mine shot a mule deer buck sneaking away from him in a little canyon. The shot was somewhat downhill, knocked the buck into a forward somersault. That was a 400 grain Hornady at 2k. Pretty impressive, took us a while to climb down out of there with full packs

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,719
W
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,719
450, a great read... I lost my book on Haselborg.. Will replace soon.. I knew of the 405, but didn’t pickup on the fact he had two...

Elmer did take a 450 to Africa.. He gave it to his WH as I understand.. Sure enjoyed the info.. Keep it coming...


Molon Labe
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,890
2
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
2
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,890
Yes. Thank you.
I only have one 71....2nd owner. I’d look for another to modify.
I’m a 475 fan. Was there a 475/348? I don’t remember off hand.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
M
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
M
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
Yes there is a 475 Turnbull.

IC B3

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,890
2
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
2
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,890
Yup....did looking last night. Thank you.
Somebody did a 475 Alaskan.
Years ago. Then somebody does the same thing. Just a little different.
Or as JDJ and GNR 475.......same thing.
We did a 500 Linebaugh Maximum on a 71 when I was working with him. Much lower pressure than the 500 S&W.
I’d like to do the 475.......I guess it would feed both lengths.....I could do it on an 1895 but I so love the way the 71 ratchets.......

Don’t know about the pressure........

Last edited by 257_X_50; 12/11/17.
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 668
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 668

Allen Hasselborg homesteaded in Mole Harbor-Admiralty Island for 50-60 years starting around 1900. He started bear hunting for the valuable
brown bear hides about the same time. He was badly mauled by a very large bear on Chichagof Island, part of the Admiralty-Baronoff-Chichagof ABC group.
The rifle he had initially was an 1876 or 73 Winchester. It was not quite enough gun for the bear that crippled his left shoulder, but he eventually killed it.
Almost got him. He might have been better off with an 1886 in 50-110. In those days, hunters and backwoods trappers found and bought what was available
through dry goods and hardware stores. I think he probably bought it in Ketchikan. People generally did'nt wait for special orders or even placed them.
Years later he settled on an 1895 or two in 405 WCF. May have had a bit more range but not stopping power unless very close.
Frank Hibben's "Hunting American Bears", copyright through Lippincott-1945 gives the details. Hibben was a professor at the U. of New Mexico. Hunted with Hasselborg.

For a real Canadian-Yukon read try the history and stories of the "Mad Trapper" Albert Johnson near Rat River, NWT-Yukon. Chased by the Mounties
and probably killed with a 94 or 1876 45-75 caliber. He shot and killed Edgar Millen, RCMP Constable. This occurred in the early thirties and it still remains
a mystery as to who Johnson really was. Whomever, he was- he was in fact a tough hombre. Carried a Savage 1899 in 30 WCF I believe. Almost got away into the
bush of Northern Yukon-may have been trying for Alaska. Very strange character.


"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt
There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,890
2
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
2
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,890
I love local history.......the characters.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
M
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
M
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
There is a second book written about the mad trapper. I'll look when I get home, can't remember the title

Last edited by moose444; 12/11/17.
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,341
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,341
I’ve always had a great respect for the 348 Win and wildcats formed from it. The 450 Alaskan was a great add to bear stopping power in a a tube feed lever. However with today’s bullet technology (Hawk, Barnes, Speer, Swift and quality gas check hard cast) and twist rates you can do things with the 444 Marlin, which is totally underrated (355 grain cast loads at 2,200 FPS) and 45-70 (450 grain loads at 1,850 FPS) in firearms that cost considerably less that will suffice. None will produce the power of the 458 Alaskan, but both will penetrate and kill quite satisfactorily. The 50 Alaskan on a Marlin 95 action offers a sensible cost alternative to the Win 86/71 action, which is a great action that will take greater pressures thus higher velocity than the Marlin, but the bear won’t no the difference after being shot by either. Today powder and bullet technology have paved the way to accomplishing things that were never meant to be 75 years ago, especially in tube feed rifles.

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 668
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 668
Someone did a 2013-14 thorough bit of work on the 348 Ackley in the Alaska Outdoor Forum.
It was a beautiful pre-war Deluxe Model 71 and it shot really well. I believe the article stated that he preferred Woodleigh 250 gr bullets to either North Fork or Hawk.
I have used Barnes, Hornady; Hawk-all weights; and Silvertips (not recommended). Also have used Alaska Bullet works in bonded 250 gr bullets.

North Fork bullets does get the bullet weight right. They offer a 230 gr bullet which is about right for the 348 WCF as it is designed. The Ackley can push the 250s the way they
need to be moved and mine would gain 200 fps over the standard 348 velocity in 250 grain bullets of any make. That is right at 35 Whelen velocity-and will
stop anything in North America.

As to charging bears-you still may need a 450 Alaskan.

We now are having brass costs and availability problems with the 348 WW brass. ****** I have some extra 348 Ackley primed brass FS-if anyone gets in a bind**************


"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt
There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
M
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
M
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 204
Thanks to good son, we have lots of 348 brass. Sportsman's warehouse was closing it out and he bought a lot. Maybe starline will make some as it's the same head size as the 50/110 and shorter.

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,334
D
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
D
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,334
[Linked Image]Here's a blast from the past! I got some cartridges today that I need help identifying.

W-W 348 Brass - rim turned down to same diameter as the body. Extractor groove cut
Bullet diameter - .332"
The shoulder is blown forward and the neck is shorter
Case length - 2.250"

Thanks, Dinny

Pics:

Attached Images
IMG_20190915_57182.jpg (28.05 KB, 322 downloads)
IMG_20190915_45827.jpg (22.61 KB, 327 downloads)
IMG_20190915_27309.jpg (26.45 KB, 330 downloads)
Last edited by Dinny; 09/15/19.

Medics bury their mistakes..
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,107
P
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
P
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,107
glad you pulled this back up. I really enjoyed reading this. I need a 71 real bad but always seems like when I find one I don't have the spare funds and when I do have the $ they are nowhere to be found. Id love to take one on my first bear hunt next month, but the old guide gun will get the nod I reckon. I don't know if I want to lug the old sharps up and down the mountain

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 423
J
JFE Offline
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
J
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 423
The 348 case was wildcatted in rimmed form for lever gun use and the 348 case was also used as a basis for rimless wildcats for use in bolt actions. The Ackley books refer to several of the bolt action variants. Typically the rim was turned down and an extractor groove cut. The body taper reduced, neck shortened and the cases were necked up and down in a variety of calibres.

There was a resurgence in interest in such wildcats back in the 90’s and I recall reading about two versions, one was based on the full length 348 case and another version shortened somewhat. They were called Heavy Express or something like that and came in a range of calibres. Anyhow there was sufficient interest in those cartridges that it spurred Winchester into developing the WSM and WSSM range of cartridges and later Remington to develop the RUM and SAUM cartridges. All of these cartridges are loosely based on the 348 case dimensions.

Regarding the bullet diameter of the wildcat you have, Elmer Keith used bullets from the 333 Jeffries to develop several wildcats under the OKH banner (O’Neil, Keith & Hopkins). This was all done prior to the introduction of the 338 Win Mag. The popularity of the 333 based wildcats was what convinced Winchester into developing and releasing the 338 Win Mag, a calibre not used since Winchester introduced it in the 33 Winchester.

Last edited by JFE; 09/16/19.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
664 members (1lessdog, 17CalFan, 10gaugemag, 1beaver_shooter, 1minute, 10ring1, 73 invisible), 2,757 guests, and 1,297 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,644
Posts18,399,051
Members73,817
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.114s Queries: 16 (0.005s) Memory: 0.9071 MB (Peak: 1.0990 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 17:47:47 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS